Any former Military pilots or recruiters that can help answer a question for me?

[jmp2140]

I know this isn't exactly the place to put this but I think it is at least a decent bit realitive. I am thinking about joining the USMC as a pilot, I will graduate with a bachelors of science in aviation flight sciences with a private pilots license, instrument rating, commercial multi-engine, and commercial single engine license. I graduated in 3 years (the program average is 4-5 years). However my freshman year of college I messed up and got just blackout drunk and I was arrested for MIP and misdemeanor resisting arrest. The MIP charge was dropped and I plead no contest to the misdemeanor Resisting arrest charge (Stupid I know but I was a scared 19 year old with no money for a lawyer). What I want to know is will this disqualify me? This charge is one of, if not the greatest regrets and lapses of judgement I've ever had, and I haven't been in any trouble since nor do I plan to be ever again. Any former Military pilots or OSO's who can give me their opinion would be much appreciated.

 

[Cooter]

I know this isn't exactly the place to put this but I think it is at least a decent bit realitive. I am thinking about joining the USMC as a pilot, I will graduate with a bachelors of science in aviation flight sciences with a private pilots license, instrument rating, commercial multi-engine, and commercial single engine license. I graduated in 3 years (the program average is 4-5 years). However my freshman year of college I messed up and got just blackout drunk and I was arrested for MIP and misdemeanor resisting arrest. The MIP charge was dropped and I plead no contest to the misdemeanor Resisting arrest charge (Stupid I know but I was a scared 19 year old with no money for a lawyer). What I want to know is will this disqualify me? This charge is one of, if not the greatest regrets and lapses of judgement I've ever had, and I haven't been in any trouble since nor do I plan to be ever again. Any former Military pilots or OSO's who can give me their opinion would be much appreciated.

It shouldn't be a show stopper, but you will have to explain it during the application process.

 

[Velocity173]

Would require a waiver in the Army. Not sure about USMC but I'd imagine the same. Depends on how bad they're hurting for pilots. I can tell you in the Army, generally waivers are hard to get these days. Even age waivers.

Anything is possible though. Just need to stay positive and be prepared either way.

 

[JB1842]

Look at seeing if you can get it expunged. Depending on what state you live in, the expungement can completely erase your record and you can answer truthfully that you never had a conviction and it won't show up in the BI. But remember not all states do it this way, and I would still tell your recruiter about it. Honesty and integrity are huge with the Marine Corps. I know I saved myself from an NJP once for telling the truth and taking responsibility for screwing up. It will show that you are honest, but also show that you have done the right things since then in able to get a clear record.

 

[cgrab]

Pick up the phone and call your local OSO. Before you sign anything make sure you get an aviation contract because all Marine Officers go to TBS and select their MOS by rankings (well by thirds rankings). Without a contract you could end up out of aviation entirely.

 

[thebruce]

Without a contract you could end up out of aviation entirely.

And then you wind up with the most glorious bastards the world has ever known, the grunts! (I went to the Academy with the hopes of being a fighter pilot and wound up going Marine ground 24 years ago. Greatest thing that could have happened to my life, although there were many days along the way that I wished I could have flown Hornets or Harriers.)

To the OP: I agree with the advice to ask your local Officer Selection Officer. You may not even need a waiver given that it was a juvenile misdemeanor. And technically you are required to disclose even expunged or sealed convictions/juvenile findings when asked. There are plenty of stories of guys who didn't disclose and weren't found out. Just know that if you don't disclose and the conviction is found out, you won't get your waiver.

 

[kkoran]

And then you wind up with the most glorious bastards the world has ever known, the grunts! (I went to the Academy with the hopes of being a fighter pilot and wound up going Marine ground 24 years ago. Greatest thing that could have happened to my life, although there were many days along the way that I wished I could have flown Hornets or Harriers.)

To the OP: I agree with the advice to ask your local Officer Selection Officer. You may not even need a waiver given that it was a juvenile misdemeanor. And technically you are required to disclose even expunged or sealed convictions/juvenile findings when asked. There are plenty of stories of guys who didn't disclose and weren't found out. Just know that if you don't disclose and the conviction is found out, you won't get your waiver.

It appears he was 19 at the time, so not a juvenile.

 

[Unbeliever]

Look at seeing if you can get it expunged. Depending on what state you live in, the expungement can completely erase your record and you can answer truthfully that you never had a conviction and it won't show up in the BI.

And then you'd be violating 18 USC 1001. Except for a couple specific drug related crimes, expungement is a state-only thing, and has no bearing on the Feds. Your arrest/conviction is in some database somewhere owned by the Feds, and the Federal Government is under no obligation to delete it. It's better to answer, "Yes, but....." than "no" to the "Have you ever..." questions.

Plenty of people have been caught out on that little wrinkle.

 

[falconkidding]

No idea but honestly I wouldn't expect them to waiver it(i'd still ask though) I know for my board last year for the AF they took 70 pilots out of what 1000+ applicants 2 guys I went up to wright patt for my flight physical were mech engineers with 90+'s across the afoqt and ppls and they got their 3rd and 4th picks( drones) Maybe usmc needs pilots worse but I dare say they'd have an abundance of guys with perfect scores, records and health. So no waivers. Also your recruiter wont give a damn about you cause he's got 10 other qualified guys to deal with so you have to be your own advocate and push for stuff.

 

[James331]

Hmm, I would think in a profession where you are expected to blindly follow authority, after all not many sane people would kill or get killed on command otherwise, they would have a major issue with a record that you not only went against authority, but did so with force. Kinda doesn't work for the whole millitary mindset.

 

[thebruce]

It appears he was 19 at the time, so not a juvenile.

Not sure how I missed that the first time around. Good point.

 

[35 AoA]

Hmm, I would think in a profession where you are expected to blindly follow authority, after all not many sane people would kill or get killed on command otherwise, they would have a major issue with a record that you not only went against authority, but did so with force. Kinda doesn't work for the whole millitary mindset.

That is a pretty gross misrepresentation of much of the military, particularly the officer corps. I have yet to have experienced a scenario where I was expected to do such a thing. Omit the term "blindly" and I will begin to agree a little more, but as a guy who wears the uniform, you are always expected to think when you do stuff, and in the aviation world, you are often called upon to make some pretty serious decisions (with life/death implications) without much real time guidance, while also not having the luxury of knowing all the information one might want to know prior to making said decision. That is the reason why we need folks with demonstrated good decision making, rather than a herd of automatons who just wait for someone to tell them what to do.

To the OP, man, that is a dumb thing to have done, and of course a black mark on your record, but I don't think it is by any means something that a number of good years, a solid application package/GPA/ASTB, and strong LOR's couldn't help you overcome. Things like a history of drug abuse, violent crime, or being a convicted felon are show stoppers. Smaller offenses like this one, while still troublesome in many cases, do allow some leeway given enough time having elapsed since the offense and an otherwise good record. Like others have said, in times where the supply exceeds the demand, that becomes more difficult. Either way, you only know if you try. I'm not a recruiter but I am a Naval Aviator…….that and I stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night….

 

[James331]

That is a pretty gross misrepresentation of much of the military, particularly the officer corps. I have yet to have experienced a scenario where I was expected to do such a thing.

To the OP, man, that is a dumb thing to have done, and of course a black mark on your record, but I don't think it is by any means something that a number of good years, a solid application package/GPA/ASTB, and strong LOR's couldn't help you overcome. Things like a history of drug abuse, violent crime, or being a convicted felon are show stoppers. Smaller offenses like this one, while still troublesome in many cases, do allow some leeway given enough time having elapsed since the offense and an otherwise good record. Like others have said, in times where the supply exceeds the demand, that becomes more difficult. Either way, you only know if you try. I'm not a recruiter but I am a Naval Aviator…….that and I stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night….

Never fired a weapon at a target with people in it?

 

[35 AoA]

Never fired a weapon at a target with people in it?

I updated my previous, but the answer to your question is yes, I have

 

[Cooter]

Hmm, I would think in a profession where you are expected to blindly follow authority, after all not many sane people would kill or get killed on command otherwise

You really misunderstand the nature of modern military engagements if you think anyone is out there "blindly" killing people on others orders. Also, it doesn't require insanity or ignorance to step up and do what needs to be done in the military, or law enforcement for that matter.

 

[35 AoA]

You really misunderstand the nature of modern military engagements if you think anyone is out there "blindly" killing people on others orders. Also, it doesn't require insanity or ignorance to step up and do what needs to be done in the military, or law enforcement for that matter.

100%. In many cases, you are the guy who is being called upon to determine if something is actually a legitimate target. Or in other cases, there is no question about that, but you need to be 100% sure you are tracking the same thing. Either way, a very serious personal judgement needs to be made, and there is nobody else in your single seat jet that can make that other than you. It isn't like some 4 star general is out there to give you the voice of god "son kill that" call or something like that. Most of the time, it is a guy 10-12 pay grades junior to you on the ground who needs your help and is a full member of that decision making process, and who is really the person authorizing the strike. This authority has been pre-delegated by Generals who realize they can't make those decisions for you. It isn't a blind order at all, and it requires every bit of cognitive ability that a human can muster. The consequences of making the wrong decision are just too great to not thoroughly invest your mind and judgement in the problem.

 

[James331]

I think we are talking about different things.


You're talking about when youre already balls deep, I'm saying you should ask the question of if you should even be hitting on the girl to start with.

It's rather near sighted to occupy another mans country and classify people who fight against said occupation as the "enemy".

 

[AggieMike88]

Blacked out due to alcohol intoxication and no one has yet to ask if this incident has been settled with the FAA? I thought when you were caught that many sheets to the wind, it triggered a whole lot of medical certification challenges. Resulting in HIMS level guidance, long record of prove. Sobriety, and possible Neurocog evaluations.

The military advice is interesting, but I am curious if the FAA issues are dealt with.

 

[35 AoA]

I think we are talking about different things.


You're talking about when youre already balls deep, I'm saying you should ask the question of if you should even be hitting on the girl to start with.

It's rather near sighted to occupy another mans country and classify people who fight against said occupation as the "enemy".

I suppose fair analogy about the girl and the applicant. On the other issue, I'm not a big fan of occupation, however we also had the distinct displeasure of watching real time, from above, while ISIS ran from town to town in pickup trucks collecting people and then finally taking them to a field for execution. I'm talking on the order of 200+ people, who were just vaporized in a manner of seconds. If that isn't an "enemy" to humanity, I don't know what is. For what it is worth, we weren't "there" at the time……i.e. "occupation" wasn't a thing, and there were no uniformed servicemen on the ground aside from embassy personnel. We didn't have weapons on the jets initially, hence why we had to just watch this. I do know that the follow on strikes we took part in saved or at least prolonged the lives of the Yizidis who the Iraqis have been trying to massacre for years. Coming back to the boat and seeing the CNN coverage, in full photo essay format that put faces to the people we had watched die from overhead, was not only sobering, but also ended any doubts I had that we were engaging the "enemy". The poor men, women, and children we watched breathe for the last time may have been Iraqis and not like us in some ways, but they are still humans and just thinking of my little man/mini me ever being in that horrible position makes me hope that there would be someone around who could have done more than we were able to that day.

 

[Velocity173]

I think we are talking about different things.


You're talking about when youre already balls deep, I'm saying you should ask the question of if you should even be hitting on the girl to start with.

It's rather near sighted to occupy another mans country and classify people who fight against said occupation as the "enemy".




We don't ask that question because our government has already either declared war or use of force in that area. They decide that the particular threat in that particular area is severe enough to eliminate. For "Joe Warfighter" to turn their backs on those orders, well, they shouldn't have joined in the first place. You don't get to pick and choose your battles based on personal beliefs. You'd never have any sort of effective fighting force in that case. "Ok, I'll join the military but the first time you send me somewhere I don't want to go, forget it, I'm outta here." Doesn't work that way.

The above isn't blindly following orders either. You're following orders directed your chain of command as authorized by our ELECTED political leaders. As long as those orders don't violate the laws of war, one should not have a guilty conscious. They've never asked me to kill somone that didn't pose a direct threat to myself or my fellow soldiers.

 

[Mason]

I too am interested in how you settled this up with regards to your FAA medical.

 

[Ravioli]

Inquiring minds want to know about that First or Second Class medical.

IMHO if the resolution was good enough for the FAA, it should be good enough for the military.

 

[bflynn]

Also your recruiter wont give a damn about you cause he's got 10 other qualified guys to deal with so you have to be your own advocate and push for stuff.

Actually, your recruiter probably has a quota, so they just want to stuff as many guys into the pipeline as possible. Whether or not you're going to actually qualify is your problem. And the recruiter does not have 10 other qualified guys.

Like so many things, attitude counts. Don't hide it, put it out there and make it part of your record and be contrite. If they only want to take people that have never been caught then it's better to know that up front. My impression is that your incident is not an issue for the Marine Corp as long as it is not part of a chain.

 

[Cooter]

Blacked out due to alcohol intoxication and no one has yet to ask if this incident has been settled with the FAA? I thought when you were caught that many sheets to the wind, it triggered a whole lot of medical certification challenges. Resulting in HIMS level guidance, long record of prove. Sobriety, and possible Neurocog evaluations.

The military advice is interesting, but I am curious if the FAA issues are dealt with.

If getting drunk and rowdy were a disqualification for being a pilot, the current pilot shortage would be much worse.

 

[AggieMike88]

If getting drunk and rowdy were a disqualification for being a pilot, the current pilot shortage would be much worse.

You're taking my question out of context. The OP was arrested while drunk and rowdy. Form 8500-8 question 18v and 18w, and he was far enough over a BAC of .15 to black out.

From past discussions involving Drs. Bruce, Lou, and others, this airman may have a HIMS medical certification issue to deal with.

 

[James331]

We don't ask that question because our government has already either declared war or use of force in that area. They decide that the particular threat in that particular area is severe enough to eliminate. For "Joe Warfighter" to turn their backs on those orders, well, they shouldn't have joined in the first place. You don't get to pick and choose your battles based on personal beliefs. You'd never have any sort of effective fighting force in that case. "Ok, I'll join the military but the first time you send me somewhere I don't want to go, forget it, I'm outta here." Doesn't work that way.

The above isn't blindly following orders either. You're following orders directed your chain of command as authorized by our ELECTED political leaders. As long as those orders don't violate the laws of war, one should not have a guilty conscious. They've never asked me to kill somone that didn't pose a direct threat to myself or my fellow soldiers.

I beg to differ


Your argument will work as long as we win said war, some losers of wars have tried that argument with little success and were met with the end of a rope and a short fall.

This is why I imagine the military would take issue with someone who was found guilty of opposing officials/authority.

 

[Velocity173]

Inquiring minds want to know about that First or Second Class medical.

IMHO if the resolution was good enough for the FAA, it should be good enough for the military.

Yeah but they're two different things though. You have the FAA medical side of the equation for approving the medical but on the military side, the applicant is competing for a spot. A highly coveted spot where integrity and good judgment are paramount. Example, I had to get a lousy speeding ticket reduced to less than $100 or I would have to apply for a moral waiver to fly in the Army. It's just not about getting a waiver either. Even if a waiver gets approved, you're competing against tens of other applicants who have flawless records. Every advantage counts.

The military today is like the 90s. Still in a draw down period so there are plenty of applicants with low acceptance rates on the boards. Army right now is hovering around 60 % warrant officer boards. I suspect the RLO side is just as bad. There are only X number of slots available with plenty of people willing to raise their right hand and join.

I'm not chastising the OP either. He messed up at a very young age and it shouldn't hold too much weight given an otherwise strong packet. Just understand his fate is based on the needs of the USMC. Like all branches, those needs go in cycles. Hopefully his timing is right and he gets picked up.

 

[Velocity173]

I beg to differ


Your argument will work as long as we win said war, some losers of wars have tried that argument with little success and were met with the end of a rope and a short fall.

This is why I imagine the military would take issue with someone who was found guilty of opposing said officials/authority.

Acting within the laws of war isn't the same as war crimes. That's why the DOD spends countless hours training its members on what's lawful and what's not.

If you're referring to being at the wrong end of the stick in warfare, well that's just the luck of the draw. Odds are these days it wouldn't matter how eithical we conduct ourselves, the enemy isn't operating according to the Geneva Convention anyway. In Iraq, you can bet the prospect of being a POW didn't sit well on our minds.

 

[James331]

And some of our drone executions were on the international up and up? G'bay? We've been called out internationally for tons of crap in this invasion, of course we just through the finger and keep at what we are doing, after all what is anyone going to do about it.

The victors write the books and the laws, just don't blow enough smoke to confuse being the victor with being in the right.

 

[kontiki]

I have no feel for whats going on in the corps today, but they have a very long history of dealing with alcohol related problems. It probably all boils down to how hard a time they are having finding suitable applicants and how competitive of your qualifications are. I would do every thing I could to get the youthful indiscretions expunged. You don't want to hold yourself back from excellent opportunities you might be offered.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Ravioli]

Yeah but they're two different things though. You have the FAA medical side of the equation for approving the medical but on the military side, the applicant is competing for a spot. A highly coveted spot where integrity and good judgment are paramount. Example, I had to get a lousy speeding ticket reduced to less than $100 or I would have to apply for a moral waiver to fly in the Army. It's just not about getting a waiver either. Even if a waiver gets approved, you're competing against tens of other applicants who have flawless records. Every advantage counts.

Wonderful. Our military condones and ignores abhorrent behavior SO LONG AS YOU SIGN UP FIRST.

 

[Velocity173]

Wonderful. Our military condones and ignores abhorrent behavior SO LONG AS YOU SIGN UP FIRST.

Where did you get that from my statement? I can't even begin to tell you the number of careers I've seen ruined by UCMJ violations AFTER they were in. Knew people personally kicked out for theft, dealing drugs, using drugs, assault, etc.

The military is very understanding of minor offenses before and after you join. They do modify their standards based on how bad they need people though. Wartime is an example of that.

 

[N3368K]

I was a battery commander in the early 90s in Germany. I lost a couple of very good NCOs during the drawdown due to previous DUIs. They writing was on the wall that given their past misjudgement they would never get promoted. They voluntarily took the separation rather than waiting to get passed over and involuntary separation. It sucked, because they had come up in an era where "all good NCOs had at least one Article 15." (Captain's mast for USN/USMC). Saw a couple of great officers go because of a single bad efficiency report as 2nd Lieutenants.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

Wonderful. Our military condones and ignores abhorrent behavior SO LONG AS YOU SIGN UP FIRST.

Tell that to my friend who was denied reenlistment at the 18 year mark for a DWI. Yes, he had a clean record up to that point.

 

[Sundancer]

And some of our drone executions were on the international up and up? G'bay? We've been called out internationally for tons of crap in this invasion, of course we just through the finger and keep at what we are doing, after all what is anyone going to do about it.

The victors write the books and the laws, just don't blow enough smoke to confuse being the victor with being in the right.

I think you're missing a sense of scale, or at least proportion, but it's a common failing now. F-ups do happen, when using humans to accomplish ends - but a big diffrence exists between aberrant or erroneous acts, and organizational cultures that embrace torture, murder, rape, mass killings, and religious genocide as standard procedure.

We ever kill the wrong guy(s)? Or innocent family/bystanders? Not being omnipotent, yeah, gonna happen. So we do our best to minimize that, up to and including our people taking on big risks. Or letting a bad actor move along.

Google "Jordanian pilot ISIS". I'll compare our treatment of Gitmo detainees most favorably with that depraved spectacle. . .

 

[Mason]

Yes, there is a big difference between unintentional, accidental, or "collateral" damage, and intentional, provocative, inhuman behavior.

 

[3393RP]

Google "Jordanian pilot ISIS". I'll compare our treatment of Gitmo detainees most favorably with that depraved spectacle. . .

I don't want to draw this thread further off topic than it already us, the OP didn't ask about the morality of the US involvement in the ME.

However, I wanted to say that Muath al-Keseasbeh, the Jordanian pilot murdered by ISIS animals, displayed unbelievable fortitude and courage at the hour of his death.

 

[Velocity173]

This is what you have to look forward to in the Marines these days. 4 hrs per month! At least it's an F-18, so there's that.

Same thing in all the services really. So glad I'm out.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fox-news...s-221523143.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb

 

[Sundancer]

Rotary wing might get you more hours. . .regarding your legal issue, I know it might be a hurdle (I worked in recruiting for a while, including officer and aviator arenas), but you aren't automatically hosed. As someone said, be up front and fully transparent, and carefully craft your phrasing when addressing it: own it, regret it, characterize it as youthful folly, and be persistent in pursuing your application. Officer applicants are expected to do most of their own leg work, and take the initiative in the process. Be that guy.

I have seen Harvard and MIT grads with great grades not make the cut on selection, beaten out by 3.2 GPAs from State U - how well you present yourself, how articulate you are, is supremely important. Write well! Have someone else proof read it. Put it aside for a day, then read and edit it again. Then get it proof-read again.

And test well, too! There is plenty of advice and hints on the web regarding the testing.

 

[N3368K]

All the grades in the world don't matter if you haven't done anything to demonstrate leadership and service. Team sports, team captain, Boy Scout, Class President (or other class officer). Community involvement too as a volunteer at church, homeless shelter, animal shelter, local VA or anything where you are doing something for others. You have to show you have some life and interest other than just going to school and making good grades. You have to demonstrate responsibility and discipline before Uncle Sugar is going to hand over a multi-million dollar aircraft.