Antenna To Borrow

weirdjim

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weirdjim
I need to borrow one of those old wire whip antennas with the ceramic base for an article my Kitplanes boss wants me to write. Happy to pay the postage both ways and maybe throw in a new connector or two from RST engineering stock to make it worth your while.

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I need to borrow one of those old wire whip antennas with the ceramic base for an article my Kitplanes boss wants me to write. Happy to pay the postage both ways and maybe throw in a new connector or two from RST engineering stock to make it worth your while..

Jeeez I just installed mine, sealant is barely dry.
 
Jeeez I just installed mine, sealant is barely dry.

The Boss has several friends with RVs that have the wire whip because it is cheap, but when they hit the transmit button all the LEDs on the instrument panel play Christmas tree. He wants to know why.

I can do a computer simulation to show how much power is reflected down the line when he hits the button, but I want field data to prove it. My sense is that I'm going to be WAY shortening up the ground lead and the center of the coax to get rid of incidental radiation and then either an aluminum foil (Reynolds wrap) sliding choke OR some ferrite beads to get rid of the stuff coming down the outside shield of the coax.

But that is what a field test is for.

Jim
 
The Boss has several friends with RVs that have the wire whip because it is cheap, but when they hit the transmit button all the LEDs on the instrument panel play Christmas tree. He wants to know why.

I can do a computer simulation to show how much power is reflected down the line when he hits the button, but I want field data to prove it. My sense is that I'm going to be WAY shortening up the ground lead and the center of the coax to get rid of incidental radiation and then either an aluminum foil (Reynolds wrap) sliding choke OR some ferrite beads to get rid of the stuff coming down the outside shield of the coax.

But that is what a field test is for.

Jim

If you are talking about the trim indicator lights, there was a discussion last week on the matronics list aeroelectric connection.

I think the bottom line was the lights work off about 1.5 volts so it does not take much interference to light them up.

I know in my aircraft, Zenith 601XL with garmin 430 and real antenna with BNC connections, also Icom 200 with similar antenna, the lights light up on transmission.

Most everyone I know has the same problems. Simple solution don't look at the lights when transmitting.:)

Floyd Wilkes
 
Most everyone I know has the same problems.


First engineering boss I had told me a simple rule: Just because EVERYONE is having a problem doesn't mean ANYBODY has tried to solve it.

May be that I'll strike out. Tell you next month.

Jim
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Where the coax is stripped back an inch or two to connect to the antenna and ground with ring terminals has gotta be leaky as hell... but then you already know that.

Maybe try some ferrite beads on the wires feeding the trim indicator LED units to keep them from picking up RF themselves?

My RV-6 was originally equipped by its builder with a homemade copper foil strip antenna stuck to the center of the windshield. Sometimes the trim indicator LEDs would flicker a little when transmitting, but it wasn't any real bad issue. That went away completely when I got rid of the foil strip antenna and put a real RAMI bent whip antenna with BNC connector on the belly of the plane and increased my transmit and receive range by about 80 miles.
 
My RV-6 was originally equipped by its builder with a homemade copper foil strip antenna stuck to the center of the windshield./QUOTE]

Yeah, I know. I keep selling PLASTIC PLANE antenna kits (and so WELL marked) to RV people knowing damned good and well that they are going to mount them on the closest piece of plastic they can find (like the windshield) and then kvetch that those "damned foil antennas aren't any good". Notwithstanding the fact that Rutan went around the world with those "damned foil antennas" properly installed and had not a BIT of trouble.

I've been trying to talk Van into trying an idea I have for a metal slot antenna (the negative image of a foil antenna with the polarization rotated 90°) in a metal wing or stabilizer and as yet ... no response.

Jim
 
Notwithstanding the fact that Rutan went around the world with those "damned foil antennas" properly installed and had not a BIT of trouble.

Yeah, the "properly installed" is the operative phrase. The builder of my -6 put it right in the center of the windshield inches away from the vertical steel support tube which likely made the SWR go thru the roof. It never worked good there. In my buddy's RV-4 with large tip-over canopy, we put a foil tape antenna up the right side of the canopy, in the middle where it is far enough away from the roll bar and the front pilot's head too, and it works actually quite well.... that is until enough heating/cooling thermal cycles expand and contract the plexiglass and open up a crack in the copper foil tape. Then we just replace it with another length of foil tape from the big roll he bought. It's been replaced about 4 times now over the past 9 years the plane has been flying. One of these days we'll probably install a standard antenna on his plane.... after the roll of copper foil tape runs out.
 
Jim...

It is 11pm and I just opened the series and went and dug out my antenna. I sent you the message and a picture (which looks just like the one later here).

You are welcome to borrow it for as long as you like.

Neal F. Wrigh
 
Jim, the problem is not the radiation of a VHF EM field from the antenna (if I remember correctly it is 'supposed' to radiate when you push the little black button or it becomes difficult to talk to anyone :)
It is that the grounding system of the other devices on the plane is defective.

Certainly the connection at the end of the coax to the antenna connector could be dressed a bit tighter than an extra inch of center lead showing beyond the braid at the antenna screw/solder point. But all that does is raise the VSWR a small amount. (meaningless in the real world) But the grounding eyelet connector soldered to the braid wants to be dressed as short as possible.

If low voltage LEDS are blinking during transmit, then there is poor/no RF bypass at the power connection to those devices. There should be a 0.01 across every power lead on these devices. And a separate DC ground wire back to the single ground point should be present. Multiple points about the airframe are not a proper ground - contrary to general belief and practice.
And most likely, the builder did not read Aeroelectric and make a single point ground bus for all devices.

A ferrite choke over the coax (ala W2DU) at the antenna base will help by reducing circulating RF on the outer skin of the braid.
In stubborn cases consider adding a 0.1 bypass cap from the braid back to ground immediately before the choke (on the transmitter side forming an L match)
Of course, you know all these things I suspect.

A skeleton slot antenna on a GA aircraft will be interesting. Hasn't been done in GA that I am aware of. Military and aerospace use them of course. The main problem for GA will be shadowing.

cheers
denny-o
k8do
 
Maybe I am missing something, but why would one use a foil antenna ground plane on a metal airframe (no reflection on Jim's ideas and stuff tho)?
 
Jim...

It is 11pm and I just opened the series and went and dug out my antenna. I sent you the message and a picture (which looks just like the one later here).

You are welcome to borrow it for as long as you like.

Neal F. Wrigh

Emailed you a thanks and a request for how to pay for the shipping et al. MUCHLY THANK YOU and I'll include a "thanks" at the end of the article unless you want to remain annonymouse.

Jim
 
Jim, the problem is not the radiation of a VHF EM field from the antenna (if I remember correctly it is 'supposed' to radiate when you push the little black button or it becomes difficult to talk to anyone :)

With the antennas on the inside of the canopy and a 170 pound conductive salt water sack sitting well inside the near field boundary, there are going to be SWR reflections back down the line. Some on the inside of the coax and some on the outside of the shield. THAT radiation isn't going to help bouncing its way around the cabin.

It is that the grounding system of the other devices on the plane is defective.

Grounding? Ehhhh, maybe, but a second order effect if anything.

Certainly the connection at the end of the coax to the antenna connector could be dressed a bit tighter than an extra inch of center lead showing beyond the braid at the antenna screw/solder point. But all that does is raise the VSWR a small amount. (meaningless in the real world) But the grounding eyelet connector soldered to the braid wants to be dressed as short as possible.

I don't know what a "grounding eyelet connector" is --- do you mean the solder lug that goes between the ceramic insulator and the airframe?

If low voltage LEDS are blinking during transmit, then there is poor/no RF bypass at the power connection to those devices. There should be a 0.01 across every power lead on these devices.

Oopsie. An 0.01uf at VHF isn't a very good bypass. If you figure that there may be an inch or so of lead length (20 nH per inch) then an 0.01 is self-resonant around 12 MHz. Anything above that and the capacitor actually looks like an inductor --- not so very good for bypassing.

If you can get that lead length down to half an inch or so (REAL short leads) then a 150 pf capacitor is self resonant at about 125 MHz. and a real good bypass.



And a separate DC ground wire back to the single ground point should be present. Multiple points about the airframe are not a proper ground - contrary to general belief and practice.
And most likely, the builder did not read Aeroelectric and make a single point ground bus for all devices.

Brother Nuckolls and I studied from the same textbook.

A ferrite choke over the coax (ala W2DU) at the antenna base will help by reducing circulating RF on the outer skin of the braid.
In stubborn cases consider adding a 0.1 bypass cap from the braid back to ground immediately before the choke (on the transmitter side forming an L match)

That is the basis of our ferrite-foil antennas. We think of the ferrite beads we use at the base as a balun, but all a balun does is suppress reflections from coax to dipole on the outside of the braid. Unless it is a MATCHING balun, and then you get into squirrel impedances (like from a folded dipole.

Of course, you know all these things I suspect.

I am continually amazed at all that I do NOT know. And students have a better way of probing your knowledge than a dentist with a sharp pick.

A skeleton slot antenna on a GA aircraft will be interesting. Hasn't been done in GA that I am aware of. Military and aerospace use them of course. The main problem for GA will be shadowing.

Yeah, that's my thought also, but to gain a half a dozen knots without wires in the breeze might be a good tradeoff.


cheers
denny-o

And to you, sir.
WX6RST (Weather 6, Readability, Signal, Tone)

k8do
......
 
Maybe I am missing something, but why would one use a foil antenna ground plane on a metal airframe (no reflection on Jim's ideas and stuff tho)?

It isn't a ground plane; they were simply sticking the copper foil to the canopy for the antenna radiating elements. That ain't clever.

Jim
 
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