Another Which One... but for family w 5 kids

You guys are overlooking the obvious solution: sell or lease three of the kids

New income from kids will help offset aircraft acquisition cost
Smaller family load to haul
Smaller family budget requirements both near and far term
Win-win-win
 
Clark1961 said:
You guys are overlooking the obvious solution: sell or lease three of the kids

New income from kids will help offset aircraft acquisition cost
Smaller family load to haul
Smaller family budget requirements both near and far term
Win-win-win
Click to expand...

Best to sell them fresh out of the oven.
 
If you like to tinker and can get a hangar to accommodate it....
T-Bone with the couch. :)

Three up front, one in the cap'n chair, three on the couch.
 
Clark1961 said:
You guys are overlooking the obvious solution: sell or lease three of the kids

New income from kids will help offset aircraft acquisition cost
Smaller family load to haul
Smaller family budget requirements both near and far term
Win-win-win
Click to expand...

I looked for tradeakid.com but couldn't find the site. :dunno:

I would be more interested in leasing or maybe more of a share program like a club so I could enjoy the fun, good times but farm them out on the days that truly test your parenting skills. :mad2:
 
Buy a plane for you and your wife and make the kids fly coach...with the bags
 
kfvintx said:
I looked for tradeakid.com but couldn't find the site. :dunno:

I would be more interested in leasing or maybe more of a share program like a club so I could enjoy the fun, good times but farm them out on the days that truly test your parenting skills. :mad2:
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Sadly, there are probably websites like that and I am pretty sure you don't want them on your browser history!! :yikes::yikes::yikes:
 
If you're a student now and your kids are small, start off with a 310R or an Aztec. Yes, it will involve having two small kids sharing a seat (or in the Aztec put 3 small kids in the 3rd row). Build a few hundred hours and buy a Chieftain, 402, 414/421, or even 404. My preference for you would be Navajo or 421. I bought my Aztec at 225 TT and could have bought it sooner. Your budget doesn't look turbine ready, so you probably don't want a Caravan.

I find the 310 is about a $300/hr plane, but it can be $350-$400 pretty easily. Aztec is a bit cheaper but ends up costing around the same per mile because it's slower. Both have low acquisition costs. The time building in the smaller twin is important for you to move up. Not necessarily for insurance, but for safety.

After you get that initial time building done, a Chieftain or 421 will be nice. If you're thinking $50k/year is your limit, a Chieftain is probably more doable than a 421, but both likely manageable if you fly 100 hours at most and fly LOP. The Chieftain is a great, bulletproof plane. The 421 in my opinion is better, but it's not as bulletproof. It's better because it's faster, quieter, and pressurized. All my passengers loved the Navajo. They also liked the 310. They did not have kind words for the Aztec.

If you consider a Twin Cessna, join www.twincessna.org where some people who once had the same questions you did frequent. Plus a great community in general.
 
Henning said:
If you are cautious and frugal you can operate a 421 100 hrs for $42,000.
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One outfit I flew for had three 421s...two A's and a C. I'm glad that I wasn't paying the maintenance costs.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
One outfit I flew for had three 421s...two A's and a C. I'm glad that I wasn't paying the maintenance costs.

Bob Gardner
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Commercial service has an entirely different economic profile. In commercial service the cost of maintenance isn't what gets you, it's loss of revenue from not making dispatch that kills you. Keeping them at 95% dispatch to fly 2000 hrs a year will be more expensive than keeping 95% dispatch 75hrs a year.
 
kfvintx said:
Works for now with youngest being 5 years old and all girls (size and weight of 5 ballerinas expected to be less than 5 linebackers). Not sure how long though, but could build time for at least a few years.

If it t'were me, I'd save up for The Operation first so that I didn't wind up needing an 8-seater in 9 months.

Any other models I shold consider?

Christie Brinkley comes to mind.
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.....
 
Ron Levy said:
Two adults and five kids? I can't think of a single I'd want to fly with that load even if there are technically enough seats. Even if you can fit everyone in and put your spouse in the back with the smaller kids, you won't have much if any room for baggage left. A crowd like that really does beg for a cabin class twin, and if you're still a Student Pilot, you're a long way from that. And not many 7-seat planes are available for rent, anyway.
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Cessna 208 maybe or PC12.

But that's cheating because if he's considering a Cherokee Six then I doubt turbine is in the budget :D
 
Girlfriend came to me with "The Operation" complete so no need to save or worry about #8 in 9 months. We are capped at 7.... at least until friends want to come.

Since I started this thread I have been researching the various twin's a lot more. I've even come across various threads and blogs about students earning PPL and mutli endorsement at same time in same check ride. This brings up many questions and will likely start another thread to find out more on this.

I really am surprised at the initial cost of some very nice twin engine planes.... much lower than expected. This of course only has me more concerned that people with a lot more experience and knowledge than me are really scared of maintenance and operating costs keeping the initial buy-in suppressed.
 
kfvintx said:
Since I started this thread I have been researching the various twin's a lot more. I've even come across various threads and blogs about students earning PPL and mutli endorsement at same time in same check ride.
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It's possible, but it's a longer and more expensive road to the PP that way -- significantly so.

I really am surprised at the initial cost of some very nice twin engine planes.... much lower than expected.
Click to expand...
Twins are in low demand right now thanks to their much higher costs (especially $6/gal fuel) and the availability of singles with the same speed (albeit not the payload) at much lower cost.

This of course only has me more concerned that people with a lot more experience and knowledge than me are really scared of maintenance and operating costs keeping the initial buy-in suppressed.
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Aye, there's the rub. And this comes from a former twin owner who traded back to a single.
 
Out of curiosity, how do the operating costs compare between a 208 and a twin that would meet the 5-kid family load? Both are well outside both my budget and my skill level so I've never looked... but I really like what I've seen of the 208. ;)
 
deyoung said:
Out of curiosity, how do the operating costs compare between a 208 and a twin that would meet the 5-kid family load? Both are well outside both my budget and my skill level so I've never looked... but I really like what I've seen of the 208. ;)
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If you don't include cost of money and initial capital outlay, they are likely pretty close outside the insurance.
 
Mahindra GA-8 Airvan.

Perfect match. :yesnod:

GA8%20Airvan%20Credit_Gippsland-thumb-450x291-58035.jpg
 
The 208 never gets down to bargain prices as there is always a line of commercial operators looking to buy them.
 
kfvintx said:
I really am surprised at the initial cost of some very nice twin engine planes.... much lower than expected. This of course only has me more concerned that people with a lot more experience and knowledge than me are really scared of maintenance and operating costs keeping the initial buy-in suppressed.
Click to expand...

A 414 is generally estimated at $600/hour, and a 421 at $700. It can be done cheaper, but that's a good starting point. Figure $500-600 for a Navajo. I'd go 414 were it me. It might be me if the 310 proves insufficient with 3 kids.

So long as you're willing to keep a babysitter along for a few hundred hours or more, no reason why you can't hop in a bigger plane early on. Just don't be that guy with the PC12.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A 414 is generally estimated at $600/hour, and a 421 at $700. It can be done cheaper, but that's a good starting point. Figure $500-600 for a Navajo. I'd go 414 were it me. It might be me if the 310 proves insufficient with 3 kids.
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So this kinda brings up a point I have been struggling with....

Almost everyone quotes costs as per hour for operating. I fully understand this and why this is the standard.

However, when trips between 2 cities is the standard mission, I am more concerend with cost of that trip and considering a twin can accomplish in less time at a higher per hour cost, shouldn't this be taken into consideration as total cost comparison? And for flying the same number of missions the slower plane reaches TBO sooner since taking longer each flight.

Really doesn't matter I guess..... I'm just trying to rationalize and justify to myself what I already really know is most likely to happen :D
 
kfvintx said:
So this kinda brings up a point I have been struggling with....

Almost everyone quotes costs as per hour for operating. I fully understand this and why this is the standard.

However, when trips between 2 cities is the standard mission, I am more concerend with cost of that trip and considering a twin can accomplish in less time at a higher per hour cost, shouldn't this be taken into consideration as total cost comparison? And for flying the same number of missions the slower plane reaches TBO sooner since taking longer each flight.

Really doesn't matter I guess..... I'm just trying to rationalize and justify to myself what I already really know is most likely to happen :D
Click to expand...


That's exactly it, you need to make the comparisons that represent your values. Personally I would never buy a 414 though, if you operate the 421 conservatively, it costs less to operate than the 414 at the same speed. When the power gets above .5hp/CuIn then gearing so you can run the crank at 3400, you can reduce the ICP for the same power with much less total stress on the cylinders.

If one has the ability to get into a 208, one also has the ability to get into a 425 which will have a lower operating cost on long trips.
 
kfvintx said:
However, when trips between 2 cities is the standard mission, I am more concerend with cost of that trip and considering a twin can accomplish in less time at a higher per hour cost, shouldn't this be taken into consideration as total cost comparison? And for flying the same number of missions the slower plane reaches TBO sooner since taking longer each flight.
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Correct. But after all the massaging of the data, justification and rationalization, at the end of the year, a high performance single will cost you 30k and a cabin twin will cost 50 and up.

If you buy a big twin, and then end up flying it only 50 hrs/year, you have to ask yourself whether you are really up to the task if things ever go wrong. I would not be able to remain current on the couple of family trips we take every year. I fly in between, just because I enjoy it. With a big twin, I doubt I would do some of the flying I do now. Filling up after 2 hrs of looking at the trees and shooting some approaches doesn't cause me to think twice. With a Navajo or 421, I dont think I would take some of the fun/proficiency flights I do now.

You are a student pilot, right ? Dont get ahead of yourself. I doubt you would pack up the whole circus and load everyone in the plane more than once or twice a year anyway.
 
kfvintx said:
However, when trips between 2 cities is the standard mission, I am more concerend with cost of that trip and considering a twin can accomplish in less time at a higher per hour cost, shouldn't this be taken into consideration as total cost comparison?
Click to expand...

Sure, this is just cost per mile instead, which may be more relevant for your mission - nothing wrong with that. It's usually what my wife really wants to know when she asks "how much is this trip going to cost again?" :rolleyes: A friend of mine discovered that his Bellanca Viking was not particularly more expensive (in fuel, per trip) than the Cherokee-140 he had before.

Geez, it looks like a 208 holds 330 gallons; at the cheapest prices I can find around here, that's still $1,800 to fill 'er up... :eek:
 
weilke said:
Correct. But after all the massaging of the data, justification and rationalization, at the end of the year, a high performance single will cost you 30k and a cabin twin will cost 50 and up.

If you buy a big twin, and then end up flying it only 50 hrs/year, you have to ask yourself whether you are really up to the task if things ever go wrong. I would not be able to remain current on the couple of family trips we take every year. I fly in between, just because I enjoy it. With a big twin, I doubt I would do some of the flying I do now. Filling up after 2 hrs of looking at the trees and shooting some approaches doesn't cause me to think twice. With a Navajo or 421, I dont think I would take some of the fun/proficiency flights I do now.

You are a student pilot, right ? Dont get ahead of yourself. I doubt you would pack up the whole circus and load everyone in the plane more than once or twice a year anyway.
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Second pilots are cheap to hire.
 
Henning said:
Second pilots are cheap to hire.
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If you are only looking for a second pilot, probably. But if you are looking for someone who is knowledgable in that make and model in addition to being fairly current in it, you might have more of a problem. Especially if you need them to be available on your schedule.
 
weilke said:
a high performance single will cost you 30k and a cabin twin will cost 50 and up.


You are a student pilot, right ? Dont get ahead of yourself. I doubt you would pack up the whole circus and load everyone in the plane more than once or twice a year anyway.
Click to expand...

What high performance single is available in the $150k price range that seats 7 and has enough payload? Is there a difference between that plane and a cabin twin (air cond., etc.)? I'm just trying to make sure when comparing 30k to 50k each year that it is "apples to apples" comparison for the plane and what they can accomplish. I'm all for saving 20k per year, but I need the plane to accomplish my mission.

Yes, I'm still a student. Not getting ahead of myself necessarily, but a few poeple have described me as one that likes to over-research this type of decision.:D
 
The Cessna 207 that seats 7 or 8 is the least costly choice. Find a good mechanic. With aviation, the only thing you "know", is its going to be expensive. You never know for sure what your maintenance is going to be, not short term anyway.
 
You are a low time pilot that needs a big plane. You should look at the Cherokee 6. There are several out there that have 7 seats. Now the 7th seat is a small jump seat, and would not work for a full size adult, but for someone under 12 it would do just fine. If you get the fixed gear you can normally get a useful load of around 1500 lbs. That means you should be able to fill it up with stuff, 7 people and fuel and still be a smidge under gross depending on the size of the people. It is a forgiving aircraft, I will do about 145kts if you get the 300 HP model and 135kts if you get the 260 model. It is something that will be safe to handle even as a relatively low time pilot.


aircraft_details_print.cfm
 
Everskyward said:
If you are only looking for a second pilot, probably. But if you are looking for someone who is knowledgable in that make and model in addition to being fairly current in it, you might have more of a problem. Especially if you need them to be available on your schedule.
Click to expand...

True, but there comes a time where just a competent IFR second pilot is all you need.
 
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