Another mystery plane

Silvaire

Silvaire

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Silvaire
Not a quiz, I took the picture and don't know what it is. Looked like a really big Champ. Picture was taken at Calaveras California April 2010.

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It looks a lot like a tailwheel PA 22. For the life of me I can't identify the logo near the nose, though.
 
I thought it looked like a PA-20 also, but the windows aren't right. It isn't a Champ? Sure looks like one to me.
 
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And the windows are "almost" right. All the photos I find of early citabrias show the aft end of the side windows "squared off". The bird in question seems to have a "rediused" window peeking out from under the sheet.

Edit: Oops...I missed your sentence under the photo...

Pilawt said:
Early Citabrias had the traditional Champ oleo gear.

Gallery_7ECA_1964_02.jpg


The one in the OP isn't one of them, however.
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I didn't realize that. Just that they were bungee's instead.

Pilawt said:
Early Citabrias had the traditional Champ oleo gear.

Gallery_7ECA_1964_02.jpg


The one in the OP isn't one of them, however.
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Tom-D said:
Doesn't look to be 4 seats, I'm guessing Piper Vagabond.

or a PA 18.
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Vagabond was a side-by-side airplane. This thing looks too much like a tandem airplane, and has the sharp angle in the lower fuselage characteristic of the Aeroncas. And the old Aeronca oleos didn't look like that, either; there was some strut piston showing at the bottom of those.

I'm guessing Christavia.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Vagabond was a side-by-side airplane. This thing looks too much like a tandem airplane, and has the sharp angle in the lower fuselage characteristic of the Aeroncas. And the old Aeronca oleos didn't look like that, either; there was some strut piston showing at the bottom of those.

I'm guessing Christavia.

Dan
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I have never heard of one of those before, but I'd say you are right, it has the bungee gear and window shape.
 
A bit more information from what I can recall:

The fuselage structure including the forward support tubes at the windscreen were all identical to a Champ/Citabria however this thing was much larger. It's hard to tell from the only picture I took but it is a LOT bigger than a Champ or Citabria. Using the step ladder and creeper seat for scale you can get an idea how much bigger it is.
 
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It's definitely an Aeronca/Champion 7 fuselage aft of the firewall. The outer MLG attach points are correct, but the gear itself does not seem to be the standard Champion gear. The Lycoming engine makes me think it's a late '50s or early '60s Champion 7GC or 7GCA/7GCAA (agricultural version) Sky-Trac with modified main landing gear. The one in the OP's photo doesn't have flaps, so it would not be a 7GCB Challenger.

7gc.jpg


I wonder if the ag version (which accounted for most of the Sky-Tracs sold) had longer MLG to accommodate spray equipment under the fuselage.
 
I suppose it may be possible that the modified gear was creating an illusion but I own a Champ, I had in fact flown there in my Champ and this airplane, although appearing structurally identical to the 7 series Champion, seemed to be proportionally much larger in every dimension. I recall looking it over quite closely trying to figure out what it was. I suppose a person in the picture standing next to it would have helped but really, it looked like a GIANT Champ. :dunno:
 
Doesn't the FAA have an online aircraft registry database? Here in Canada all we need is the airplane's call sign and we can find out what it is, how old it is, and who owns it.

Dan
 
Silvaire said:
I suppose it may be possible that the modified gear was creating an illusion but I own a Champ, I had in fact flown there in my Champ and this airplane, although appearing structurally identical to the 7 series Champion, seemed to be proportionally much larger in every dimension. I recall looking it over quite closely trying to figure out what it was. I suppose a person in the picture standing next to it would have helped but really, it looked like a GIANT Champ. :dunno:
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I understand what you're saying, but a longer main gear can create that illusion. The engine in your photo appears to be proportionate in size to a Model 7 airframe. Compare the arrangement of the extended exhaust stacks to that of the Sky-Trac photo -- looks the same.

That's an odd fairing on the forward end of the MLG attach point -- appears to be covering the normal Champ hinge.

Dan Thomas said:
Doesn't the FAA have an online aircraft registry database? Here in Canada all we need is the airplane's call sign and we can find out what it is, how old it is, and who owns it.
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FAA does have such a website, but I don't see a registration mark in the OP photo.
 
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Pilawt said:
I understand what you're saying, but a longer main gear can create that illusion...
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Yea that's got to be it, nothing else makes sense. But see the inspection holes in the underside of the wing - don't they proportionally look unusually small? I remember it had a strange instrument panel too which can be partially seen in the picture and maybe it was placarded Experimental. I guess I should just fly up there again some nice Saturday and poke around, maybe I'll bump into the owner.
 
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Neal Howard said:
Aeronca model 60TF Super Champ military version, built around 1941.
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Nah. There were no Champs until 1945, and the tandem models which preceded the Champ didn't look like the aircraft pictured.

The basic structure, lines, windows, etc. all scream Champ. I'm guessing someone added the odd glare shield, the intersection fairings, the gear, and the flag holder, but i still think it is a Champ.
 
kyleb said:
That's an L-16A. Definitely a post war airplane. Basically a Champ with more glass and a few minor upgrades.
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The L-16A was Aeronca model 7BCM, the M for military. One of the "minor" upgrades was a 31% increase in power.
 
Neal Howard said:
Maybe a 7BCM Super Champ then? The gear looks about right. Also from 1941

3707981653_f0822f5c17.jpg
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That's just the standard "No Bounce" gear, same thing as I have on my 7EC. The oleos are in the main struts whereas the plane in question has auxiliary strut oleos.

I'm telling you, I was there and you just can't see it from the picture, this beast loomed large, it was just plain bigger than a Champ. Mine is in the hangar with the cowl off so tomorrow I'll take a picture from the exact same angle with a creeper and seat under the plane and maybe it will come across if we compare the two.
 
Okay, time to put my own thread to bed. From the picture I just took today it appears as though it was all just an illusion and that it is just a slightly modified Champ. The taller gear apparently had me thinking it was bigger. Must have been a powerful illusion :redface:

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Could be super champ, military, built from 1941 on. Also, many 7acs were turned into 7bcms. Mine, a 1945, was converted to a 7 bcm in the early 50s as I remember. Fun, easy airplane to fly. The shape and gear gives it away. It's a champ of some type.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Could be super champ, military, built from 1941 on.
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There was no Champ, Super or otherwise until 1945. The immediate pre-war and wartime Aeroncas were either Chiefs or Tandems. Neither had much, if any, airframe commonality with the Champ.

The airfoil, ribs, spars, lift struts, fuselage, gear, and tailfeathers were completely different. The A-65-8 was the same, but the rest wasn't common or even close.
 
The gear, complete with grease fitting is identical to the one I had. Please look up the various models made for the military during WW 2 .
 
Jimmy cooper said:
The gear, complete with grease fitting is identical to the one I had. Please look up the various models made for the military during WW 2 .
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I'm not trying to bust your you-know-what's, but I am a fan of accurate information.

The only tandem aircraft Aeronca made before the end of the war were TC's, L-3's, and O-58's. None of which had commonality with the post war aircraft, and none of which were referred to as Champs.

If wartime "Champs" existed, surely it will be easier for you to link the relevant information than for me to prove a negative.
 
Yes the military version of the Champ, the L-16 was used in the Korean war not WWII. But no Champ or Citabria I've ever seen had landing gear like this one. It appears to have bungees or some sort of shock struts on the aux struts similar to Piper aircraft. I don't know what the gear is off of, it's not Champ gear.
 
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