Another Mid-Air 4 Dead

Unregistered said:
Unless you fly in the Phoenix area you have no clue how busy it is there and how many aircraft are in the practice area.
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Really? I took my initial training in the DFW Class Bravo - not much traffic there....

Accidents happen all over the place - you don't have a monopoly on busy airspace in Phoenix. Many practice areas are overused by instructors (IMO) and traffic will always be an issue. See and avoid requires having your head on a swivel, and instructors need to emphasize that more often.
 
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On of my two near midairs in a lifetime (so far) was 3 miles W of DVT and was commanded by ATC.

Be careful out there!
 
I'll say that all it takes to realize how much traffic you don't see is to fly around on NVGs......and then also realize that there are way more airplanes out there during the day....
 
bbchien said:
On of my two near midairs in a lifetime (so far) was 3 miles W of DVT and was commanded by ATC.

Be careful out there!
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I was vectored right over the top of DVT by PHX Approach and good lord my head was on a swivel.

When I called up DVT they sounded like I was a surprise to them, but at least PHX had given me some vertical separation from the zoo directly below me.

When DVT is busy, you need extra eyeballs sprouting from every appendage of your body.

Gabriel Palmas' story of surviving her midair near PHX last year is supposedly in the next Ninety Nines magazine.

She's since gotten back on the horse and completed her Instrument Rating. The aircraft is also flying again after repairing the gash from the leasing edge all the way in to the spar.
 
bbchien said:
On of my two near midairs in a lifetime (so far) was 3 miles W of DVT and was commanded by ATC.

Be careful out there!
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May all the aviators involved in this accident RIP.

My one near-midair was at DXR, and also was ATC-assisted. But ultimately, it was my fault.

A thick, unexpected fog had blanketed the area. I'd just managed to fly 10 miles through it in a Cub to find the airport, and I was frankly overjoyed to be back in the pattern.

Because of the fog, ATC wanted to keep me close, and told me to turn base and follow another student pilot in a Cessna. But even through the fog, I could see the runway over my shoulder -- but I couldn't see the Cessna. Had he been where he was supposed to be, I would have seen him.

My instincts told me to extend downwind until I saw the Cessna, and then turn base behind him. But I was too new, too much a student pilot, and too much flying an old Cub in the fog, to trust my instincts. So I turned base -- and then I saw the face of the kid in the Cessna at about two o'clock. That's much too close for comfort.

He was coming in a bit low because he'd misjudged his distance, and I was still high because of the short downwind. So I punched the throttle and flew directly over him at 90 degrees, with maybe 300 to 400 feet of vertical separation between us. Then I did a right 270 and came in behind him while considering which cuss words to hurl at the guy in the tower once I got on the ground.

But by the time I landed, I'd accepted that it was my fault, not ATC's. I could see that the Cessna wasn't in front of me, so obviously he was behind me. Student pilot or not, fog or not, vintage Cub or not, only an idiot would turn base in that situation.

But God must have a soft spot for fools, because I lived to tell about it; so it became a powerful and early lesson learned, rather than a news story.

-Rich
 
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Unregistered said:
Unless you fly in the Phoenix area you have no clue how busy it is there and how many aircraft are in the practice area. Who knows, maybe one or both planes were watching OTHER traffic. I learned to fly in Phoenix and still fly there, it's more than common to have 2 or more aircraft to watch in the practice area.
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I spent a week aviating around Phoenix last year. It does seem to have a distinct set of hazards. In addition to the DVT operation, the interaction between the upside down wedding cake airspace and the rightside up wedding cake of terra firma compresses things a bit. Seems like the wide open spaces until you fly it... but I'm not really familiar.
 
denverpilot said:
abriel Palmas' story of surviving her midair near PHX last year is supposedly in the next Ninety Nines magazine.

She's since gotten back on the horse and completed her Instrument Rating. The aircraft is also flying again after repairing the gash from the leasing edge all the way in to the spar.
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:yesnod: The day she passed her IR I was as happy as the day I passed mine! We did a good bit of our IRs at the same time at the same school, and having her to look up to was such an encouragement on those hard days. Couldn't be happier to call her my friend, and I very much look forward to reading her story in the 99's magazine, even though I already read part of it ;)
 
November of 2005; Warren McIlvoy was flying us back to Deer Valley from an Angel Flight(??) detail from DVT to Flagstaff.

HR
 

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timwinters said:
That is completely irrelavent to his statement.
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Not exactly....'unregistered' seemed to imply that PHX has the monopoly on busy airspace. I am from the Phoenix area and while it is no doubt busy, there are plenty of other areas that rival it.....SoCal and Florida come to mind.

Phoenix is unique.....but it is not THAT unique.
 
bbchien said:
On of my two near midairs in a lifetime (so far) was 3 miles W of DVT and was commanded by ATC.

Be careful out there!
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And my closest shaves so far were in tower-controlled patterns (albeit without terminal radar).
Eyes outside!!!
Each time I've gotten too close for comfort, I was spared because I was looking for traffic, with my eyes. And perhaps curiously, other than the time I was cleared to the runway with traffic on short final, the "threat" was practically abeam... this is the typical scenario for a midair near an airport. One of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of the 45-degree pattern entry at non-towered fields.
So use those rear windows, and look down and up!!!

Seems to me that this kind of "attrition rate" is, sadly, standard fare for late Spring... more traffic, bright sun, high spirits, etc.
 
Yep, prior to the glass there were no mid-airs or near misses. Especially over the Grand Canyon.



ClimbnSink said:
this. pilots run into each other because they are too busy watching tv and their ideal solution is more tvs.*sigh*
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If you hear the tower controller yelling at another pilot then listen carefully. Turned base for the right runway that I was cleared to land on and realized that the controller was yelling at the other pilot because he had lined-up for my runway instead of the left runway. I had tuned-out the controller because he wasn't talking directly to me plus I was distracted by the pretty girl sitting next to me.
 
ClimbnSink said:
this. pilots run into each other because they are too busy watching tv and their ideal solution is more tvs.*sigh*
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A not unrealistic scenario-

You are happily motoring along in a Champ, so you're doing it right, old school, scanning all over the place for traffic. You're decending towards the traffic pattern of a non towered airport. You're 10 miles out and nobody seems to be in the pattern or the area, so you haven't given a position report yet. Behind you and above is a Baron also decending into the same airport. He too is spending most all of his time looking out the window for traffic and thinks he may be all alone. Sadly, your little Champ fits neatly under the nose, wings and motors of the Baron and so the twin pilot never sees you.

How are your Mark I eyeballs going to save you now?

I personally like TV. There are some pretty good, informative shows on sometimes.
 
Dav8or said:
A not unrealistic scenario-

You are happily motoring along in a Champ, so you're doing it right, old school, scanning all over the place for traffic. You're decending towards the traffic pattern of a non towered airport. You're 10 miles out and nobody seems to be in the pattern or the area, so you haven't given a position report yet. Behind you and above is a Baron also decending into the same airport. He too is spending most all of his time looking out the window for traffic and thinks he may be all alone. Sadly, your little Champ fits neatly under the nose, wings and motors of the Baron and so the twin pilot never sees you.

How are your Mark I eyeballs going to save you now?

I personally like TV. There are some pretty good, informative shows on sometimes.
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So you are going to change the rules and force an electrical system and transponders on the champs of the world? What about the balloons, ultralights, hang and paragliders, and meatbombs? Your Baron pilot doesn't see electron emitting aircraft on his tv and makes the false assumption that he is alone. Unless you are in IMC you share the sky with all sorts of non beeping stuff only you and your eyeballs are responsible for avoiding.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So you are going to change the rules and force an electrical system and transponders on the champs of the world? What about the balloons, ultralights, hang and paragliders, and meatbombs? Your Baron pilot doesn't see electron emitting aircraft on his tv and makes the false assumption that he is alone. Unless you are in IMC you share the sky with all sorts of non beeping stuff only you and your eyeballs are responsible for avoiding.
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In some (most) airspace, in about 6 1/2 more years - yes. ADSB requirements, like them or not, are coming. TV is about to become "the way", for good or bad.

Many people before you made the same argument about "sensitive altimeters", biennial flight reviews, and annual inspections. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying that's the way it is. Get on your horse and tilt at that windmill, for all the good it will do ya.
 
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airguy said:
In some (most) airspace, in about 6 1/2 more years - yes. ADSB requirements, like them or not, are coming. TV is about to become "the way", for good or bad.

Many people before you made the same argument about "sensitive altimeters", biennial flight reviews, and annual inspections. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying that's the way it is. Get on your horse and tilt at that windmill, for all the good it will do ya.
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Ironically the ADS-B requirements that will kick in beginning in 2020 will not necessarily prevent Dave's scenario from ending in a midair collision.
 
airguy said:
In some (most) airspace, in about 6 1/2 more years - yes. ADSB requirements, like them or not, are coming. TV is about to become "the way", for good or bad.

Many people before you made the same argument about "sensitive altimeters", biennial flight reviews, and annual inspections. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying that's the way it is. Get on your horse and tilt at that windmill, for all the good it will do ya.
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Now just put ADS-B thingies on mountaintops, add fuel gauges and no one will crash anymore.:lol:
In 6 1/2 years I'll still be sharing the airspace without ADS-B, as will many others.
 
Why worry. By 2020 AVGAS will be over $12/gal so only the rich would have these mid-air problems because I wouldn't be able to afford flying anymore.

José
 
Piloto said:
Why worry. By 2020 AVGAS will be over $12/gal so only the rich would have these mid-air problems because I wouldn't be able to afford flying anymore.

José
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The rest of us will be flying with 91 octane-mogas!
 
The FAA really needs to make traffic avoidance equipment inexpensive and easy to certify in GA aircraft.

It's fine to puff up your chest and say 'get your head out of the cockpit'. If telling yourself that the pilots who died in mid-airs were 'watching TV' makes you feel special, then go ahead.

What you're really saying is "It can't happen to me".

Free clue: It can happen to you. No matter how much better a pilot you are than those fools who died in mid-airs.

Meanwhile, those of us familiar with current technology know how easy and cheap it would be to equip every GA airplane with traffic information that would prevent many, probably most mid-airs.

It's almost a crime that the FAA doesn't make easy and inexpensive access to traffic information affordable to the GA fleet.
 
JimNtexas said:
The FAA really needs to make traffic avoidance equipment inexpensive and easy to certify in GA aircraft.

It's fine to puff up your chest and say 'get your head out of the cockpit'. If telling yourself that the pilots who died in mid-airs were 'watching TV' makes you feel special, then go ahead.

What you're really saying is "It can't happen to me".

Free clue: It can happen to you. No matter how much better a pilot you are than those fools who died in mid-airs.

Meanwhile, those of us familiar with current technology know how easy and cheap it would be to equip every GA airplane with traffic information that would prevent many, probably most mid-airs.

It's almost a crime that the FAA doesn't make easy and inexpensive access to traffic information affordable to the GA fleet.
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Exactly...!

ADSB traffic should not be filtered based on your ADSB "out" participation.
 
JimNtexas said:
It's almost a crime that the FAA doesn't make easy and inexpensive access to traffic information affordable to the GA fleet.
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What would you call inexpensive? There are several non-ADS-B options for relative low cost.

José
 
Truth stings. Let us watch our stories and play our games while abdicating not running into each other to electronic boxes. Sounds like fun. Maybe electronics can keep our tanks full and move mountains out of our way as well.
JimNtexas said:
The FAA really needs to make traffic avoidance equipment inexpensive and easy to certify in GA aircraft.

It's fine to puff up your chest and say 'get your head out of the cockpit'. If telling yourself that the pilots who died in mid-airs were 'watching TV' makes you feel special, then go ahead.

What you're really saying is "It can't happen to me".

Free clue: It can happen to you. No matter how much better a pilot you are than those fools who died in mid-airs.

Meanwhile, those of us familiar with current technology know how easy and cheap it would be to equip every GA airplane with traffic information that would prevent many, probably most mid-airs.

It's almost a crime that the FAA doesn't make easy and inexpensive access to traffic information affordable to the GA fleet.
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There's a reason airliners are required to have TCAS. See and avoid is not infallible.
 
Dav8or said:
A not unrealistic scenario-

You are happily motoring along in a Champ, so you're doing it right, old school, scanning all over the place for traffic. You're decending towards the traffic pattern of a non towered airport. You're 10 miles out and nobody seems to be in the pattern or the area, so you haven't given a position report yet. Behind you and above is a Baron also decending into the same airport. He too is spending most all of his time looking out the window for traffic and thinks he may be all alone. Sadly, your little Champ fits neatly under the nose, wings and motors of the Baron and so the twin pilot never sees you.

How are your Mark I eyeballs going to save you now?

I personally like TV. There are some pretty good, informative shows on sometimes.
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How's your TV going to save you now? The Champ won't show up unless he's added an electrical system and a transponder.

We must understand the limitations of ALL our systems, both our own eyes and the "TV's". Unless a plane is squawking, no traffic system outside the military is going to show it.
 
tlglenn said:
If you hear the tower controller yelling at another pilot then listen carefully. Turned base for the right runway that I was cleared to land on and realized that the controller was yelling at the other pilot because he had lined-up for my runway instead of the left runway. I had tuned-out the controller because he wasn't talking directly to me plus I was distracted by the pretty girl sitting next to me.
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This^^^^^ My CFI started me from the beginning to listen to ALL radio transmissions until you can safely decide that they are not relevant to you. I have to ask other pilots I fly with to please shut it up when they hear the radio spark up. Maybe a bit excessive for some, but a big reason is that if I'm turning crosswind in the pattern and there's a 78 pax Jet on a 5 mile final I want to be able to hear it so I can anticipate that the ATC will likely ask me to extend my downwind before he/she has a chance to do even so, I'm ready.
 
What I would like to see is.

Are mid-airs decreasing or increasing?

and

Is G.A. traffic decreasing?

My perception seems to clearly project to me that G.A. traffic is decreasing. Therefore, has there been a corresponding reduction in mid-airs? If the percentage of hours flown to mid-airs is decreasing, great! No need for adsb-out. If its increasing, clearly tech advancements have not made much of a dent and my initial response is that people are ot looking outside the a/c enough. Numbers are what I haven't seen thus far.
 
TriGear28 said:
What I would like to see is.

Are mid-airs decreasing or increasing?

and

Is G.A. traffic decreasing?

My perception seems to clearly project to me that G.A. traffic is decreasing. Therefore, has there been a corresponding reduction in mid-airs? If the percentage of hours flown to mid-airs is decreasing, great! No need for adsb-out. If its increasing, clearly tech advancements have not made much of a dent and my initial response is that people are ot looking outside the a/c enough. Numbers are what I haven't seen thus far.
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You may want to review past Nall Reports, available from the AOPA web site:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Safety-and-Technique/Accident-Analysis/Joseph-T-Nall-Report

As far as I can tell, mid-air collisions are in the statistical noise range - subject to the laws of small numbers, so trends are hard to make out.
 
TriGear28 said:
What I would like to see is.

Are mid-airs decreasing or increasing?

and

Is G.A. traffic decreasing?

My perception seems to clearly project to me that G.A. traffic is decreasing. Therefore, has there been a corresponding reduction in mid-airs? If the percentage of hours flown to mid-airs is decreasing, great! No need for adsb-out. If its increasing, clearly tech advancements have not made much of a dent and my initial response is that people are ot looking outside the a/c enough. Numbers are what I haven't seen thus far.
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The tech advancements are responsible for an increase in midairs.
 
I think any and all help we can get to detect traffic is a good thing. Don't see the argument against ADSB. Even with it's limitations, it helps.
 
Speedy said:
I think any and all help we can get to detect traffic is a good thing. Don't see the argument against ADSB. Even with it's limitations, it helps.
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Doesn't help when pilots get used to all traffic showing up.
 
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