Another logging question

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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Suppose Pilot A, a VFR rated pilot is flying without a current medical, not a LSA aircraft with Pilot B, a CFI, not CFII.

Further suppose Pilot B files an instrument flight plan and handles the radios throughout the flight.

Additionally suppose Pilot A is the sole manipulator of the controls throughout a 3+ hour flight totally within clouds until breaking out above decision height at the landing airport 300 miles from the departure airport.

Does Pilot A log 3 hours of actual?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Suppose Pilot A, a VFR rated pilot is flying without a current medical, not a LSA aircraft with Pilot B, a CFI, not CFII.

Further suppose Pilot B files an instrument flight plan and handles the radios throughout the flight.

Additionally suppose Pilot A is the sole manipulator of the controls throughout a 3+ hour flight totally within clouds until breaking out above decision height at the landing airport 300 miles from the departure airport.

Does Pilot A log 3 hours of actual?
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I would think logging actual would imply being PIC unless receiving dual instruction under a CFII. I would guess no.
 
Pilot A logs PIC time as sole manipulator, and actual. I'd also suggest that Pilot A note that Pilot B was acting as PIC and was appropriately rated.

I don't believe instruction can be logged, but I'm not 100% confident of that. You have to be a CFII to give flight instruction leading to an instrument rating.... but I don't know if a CFI is actually prohibited from giving instruction in IMC.
 
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TMetzinger said:
Pilot A logs PIC time as sole manipulator, and actual. I'd also suggest that Pilot A note that Pilot B was acting as PIC and was appropriately rated.

I don't believe instruction can be logged, but I'm not 100% confident of that. You have to be a CFII to give flight instruction leading to an instrument rating.... but I don't know if a CFI is actually prohibited from giving instruction in IMC.
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Where would we go to look that up?
 
TMetzinger said:
...I don't know if a CFI is actually prohibited from giving instruction in IMC.
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61.195(c) seems to say that it depends on the purpose of the instruction:

"(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided."​
 
It seems to me that a standard CFI could give a student instruction in IMC on things like weather avoidance systems, avionics, ATC procedures, and flying by reference to instruments. That time could be logged as actual and dual received. But it can't be counted as "training time" for the instrument rating. That's how I interpret the regs. But I also know how much different teaching is from flying, and I'd expect teaching in IMC while acting as PIC would not be something I'd want to try without a lot of supervised experience flying in IMC from the right seat while looking at the instruments on the left side. And if I was going to get that experience, I might as well add the IR to my instructor ticket.

I think this could be the difference between "legal" and "smart" for the typical CFI. I know that there are probably a bunch of folks who might have plenty of experience flying right seat in actual without being a CFII and for them it may not be such a big deal.
 
Pilot A cannot log actual in IMC as he/she is not receiving dual from a CFII. I would also wonder about pilot A logging PIC , since he/she does not have a current medical. Since dual is not being received, then pilot A cannot exercise private pilot privileges without a medical.
 
Inverted said:
Pilot A cannot log actual in IMC as he/she is not receiving dual from a CFII. I would also wonder about pilot A logging PIC , since he/she does not have a current medical. Since dual is not being received, then pilot A cannot exercise private pilot privileges without a medical.
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I don't think pilot A can log either actual or PIC even with a current medical, in IMC in this case.

I'm not sure what point there would be to logging the time anyway. It doesn't benefit pilot A, and probably raises flags later if his logbook is inspected.
 
Inverted said:
Pilot A cannot log actual in IMC as he/she is not receiving dual from a CFII. I would also wonder about pilot A logging PIC , since he/she does not have a current medical. Since dual is not being received, then pilot A cannot exercise private pilot privileges without a medical.
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The FAA has consistently made a distinction between logging vs. acting as PIC. Pilot A is appropriately rated for category/class and is the sole manipulator and thus can log PIC and actual. Pilot B is merely acting as PIC (instrument rated, current medical, appropriately qualified). Pilot B doesn't even need to be a CFI in this case, he/she is simply acting as PIC.
 
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Jason has nailed it. As for giving training, yes. The CFI can do that, but it doesn't count for anything labeled "instrument training."
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
The FAA has consistently made a distinction between logging vs. acting as PIC. Pilot A is appropriately rated for category/class and is the sole manipulator and thus can log PIC and actual. Pilot B is merely acting as PIC (instrument rated, current medical, appropriately qualified). Pilot B doesn't even need to be a CFI in this case, he/she is simply acting as PIC.
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So, A can log but not act as PIC and B can act as but not log PIC?
 
Inverted said:
Pilot A cannot log actual in IMC as he/she is not receiving dual from a CFII. I would also wonder about pilot A logging PIC , since he/she does not have a current medical. Since dual is not being received, then pilot A cannot exercise private pilot privileges without a medical.
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Why not? There's no prohibition on logging actual to only those with instrument ratings

Logging <> Acting, when it comes to PIC.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
The FAA has consistently made a distinction between logging vs. acting as PIC. Pilot A is appropriately rated for category/class and is the sole manipulator and thus can log PIC and actual. Pilot B is merely acting as PIC (instrument rated, current medical, appropriately qualified). Pilot B doesn't even need to be a CFI in this case, he/she is simply acting as PIC.
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Pilot A does not have a medical therefore cannot act or log PIC.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't think pilot A can log either actual or PIC even with a current medical, in IMC in this case.

I'm not sure what point there would be to logging the time anyway. It doesn't benefit pilot A, and probably raises flags later if his logbook is inspected.
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That's why I recommended noting the name of the acting PIC in my original response.

I logged maybe an hour of actual, solo, instrument time between my private and my instrument. Most of that time was in VFR weather but due to either illusions or lack of night illumination I did not have an adequate horizon. The rest were inadvertent cloud penetrations at night. I flew a LOT of night VFR during the two years between my private and instrument.
 
Inverted said:
How can you do that without a medical?
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61.23(a)(1), (2), or (3) only require a medical certificate (when applicable) when the person involved is exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate. The pilot who is not at the controls is the pilot in command, because he is the only one who meets the requirements, and unless it's an aircraft that requires two pilots, he is the only one who is exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate. The pilot at the controls is not exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate because you don't have to have a pilot certificate to do that. Even non-pilot passengers are allowed to manipulate the controls if it's under the supervision of the PIC.
 
61.51(e) deals EXCLUSIVELY with logging issues. You need a medical to act as PIC but you do not necessarily need one to LOG PIC. The necessity of a medical is addressed in 61.3(c).
 
The "trick" to understanding any question about logging flight time is that you need to completely ignore whether or not you are acting as PIC or qualified to act as PIC, and just look at the sections of 61.51 related to the type of time you're logging.

In this case...
Pilot A is rated in category and class. Thus Pilot A can log PIC time for the time spent being the sole manipulator of the controls.
Pilot A is maintaining aircraft control solely by reference to instroments. Pilot A can log actual.
If Pilot A is receiving flight training from an instructor, Pilot A can log training received.

If Pilot B is a CFI providing instruction, Pilot B can log training given. Pilot B can also log PIC while giving training. I don't think Pilot B can log Actual as he's not the one controlling the airplane. I'll defer on this to a more experienced CFI if I'm wrong.

Pilot A can not "count" the training received towards an instrument rating unless Pilot B is a CFII.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, but only under the supervision of a CFI.
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True, but it still demonstrates the principle that a person doesn't have to have a pilot certificate in order to log time. Of course, 61.51 will determine whether that time can be applied toward a certificate or rating.
 
Palmpilot said:
True, but it still demonstrates the principle that a person doesn't have to have a pilot certificate in order to log time. Of course, 61.51 will determine whether that time can be applied toward a certificate or rating.
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Student pilots have a pilot certificate, but are not "rated." There is no legal way to log PIC time without a pilot certificate. The only time that may be logged without a pilot certificate is when receiving training from an authorized instructor.
 
Didn't EdFred (?) log ME sole manipulator PIC time while only having only a SEL and NOT with a CFI?

He wasn't rated. And wasn't under instruction.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Didn't EdFred (?) log ME sole manipulator PIC time while only having only a SEL and NOT with a CFI?

He wasn't rated. And wasn't under instruction.
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That is legally possible if he was the sole occupant and had a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, but he would have to have held a pilot certificate.
 
TMetzinger said:
If Pilot B is a CFI providing instruction, Pilot B can log training given. Pilot B can also log PIC while giving training. I don't think Pilot B can log Actual as he's not the one controlling the airplane. I'll defer on this to a more experienced CFI if I'm wrong.
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No need to defer to a CFI, just to the reg.
==============================
An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
==============================

There is a little bit of a catch here. There is a relatively recent Chief Counsel opinion that "seems: to require that in order for the CFI to do so, he must be giving "countable" instrument training which a single-I is not.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-3.pdf

The opinion floats around the issue a bit, ultimately appearing to suggest that a single-I who gives instrument training beyond the minimum hours isn't really giving training at all. I spoke a bit with the author of the opinion, discussing such issues as a CFI-A who takes his private student into the clouds for experience or teaches him an approach as part of his backup plan bag of tricks; neither of us came by particularly satisfied with the discussion
 
Ron Levy said:
Student pilots have a pilot certificate, but are not "rated." There is no legal way to log PIC time without a pilot certificate. The only time that may be logged without a pilot certificate is when receiving training from an authorized instructor.
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I was talking about time logged while receiving instruction prior to getting a student pilot certificate. Even though the student can't log PIC time for it, it illustrates the point that some types of time can be logged, and therefore one must look at the specific logging regulations involved rather than just making assumptions based on whether one is qualified to act as PIC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No need to defer to a CFI, just to the reg.
==============================
An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
==============================

There is a little bit of a catch here. There is a relatively recent Chief Counsel opinion that "seems: to require that in order for the CFI to do so, he must be giving "countable" instrument training which a single-I is not.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-3.pdf

The opinion floats around the issue a bit, ultimately appearing to suggest that a single-I who gives instrument training beyond the minimum hours isn't really giving training at all. I spoke a bit with the author of the opinion, discussing such issues as a CFI-A who takes his private student into the clouds for experience or teaches him an approach as part of his backup plan bag of tricks; neither of us came by particularly satisfied with the discussion
Click to expand...

I agree that the opinion is not clearly on point to the example you gave and to this thread. A clearer way to express it would be to not allow a CFI to give instruction in actual conditions at all.
 
TMetzinger said:
I agree that the opinion is not clearly on point to the example you gave and to this thread. A clearer way to express it would be to not allow a CFI to give instruction in actual conditions at all.
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I did not intend to suggest that the flight be considered an instructional flight.
 
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