Another I-PAD question - VS G1000

[skidoo]

I fly a G1000 without the charts enabled. The chart enable option is about $2500. I understand that in the G1000, it will show your progress on an approach chart. I also understand that when showing the approach chart, you lose your large moving map display.

So, I am trying to understand if there is another or better option such as an I-PAD. I understand that one would be less expensive. But, would it serve me just as well as the G1000 chart unlock? If so, what would you recommend to properly get set up with an I-PAD and approach charts? Will one with internal GPS also show progress on the approach chart? Will the mini version be suitable? I like its smaller size...

 

[BillTIZ]

I use an iPad (Gen 1) with built in GPS, with Foreflight software. Two levels of service with ForeFlight, basic will provide position on VFR/IFR Enroute charts, pro level adds position tracking to instrument approach charts. Instrument approach charts are available without position tracking at the basic level.

An iPad mini will work, internal gps, gps with Bad Elf or Stratus will work.
Changing from Enroute to approach, you can only display one chart at a time.

Others use iPad with Garmin pilot software.

Consider annual costs to unlock charts in the G1000, annual chart fees.
Annual cost Foreflight Pro, appx $150/yr
I do not know annual cost of Garmin charts.
One time cost of iPad, stratus, or other external GPS source.
Stratus and Garmin ADS-B units get gps and weather data to iPad software.

iPad has other uses, flight planning with wifi or 3G access, email, web surfing etc when outside the airplane.

I used my iPad on 53hr cross country, inflight Nav charts, AF/D freq, airport data. Wifi at hotels and FBO for flight planning, DUATS weather, eApis customs filing.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I fly a G1000 without the charts enabled. The chart enable option is about $2500. I understand that in the G1000, it will show your progress on an approach chart. I also understand that when showing the approach chart, you lose your large moving map display.

So, I am trying to understand if there is another or better option such as an I-PAD. I understand that one would be less expensive. But, would it serve me just as well as the G1000 chart unlock? If so, what would you recommend to properly get set up with an I-PAD and approach charts? Will one with internal GPS also show progress on the approach chart? Will the mini version be suitable? I like its smaller size...

Ipad mini with integral GPS (4g version) is $459. Or you can get a Wifi only version for $329 and get an add-on GPS unit for it for probably less than $100.

Foreflight app is free but requires a subscription for functionality.

For $149 per year (pro) you get all the stuff on this page. Which includes geo-referenced taxi diagrams and approach plates which will indeed show your progress on the field or approach. Plus all the other features of Foreflight which depending on your viewpoint are anything from "pretty darn neat" to "spectacular" to "mandatory for flight planning." The documents feature of the iPad version makes it a real EFB.

The GPS chipset in the first generation iPad and earlier iPhones left something to be desired in terms of signal reception, thus spawning several aftermarket GPS units which connected either to the PIN connector or via Bluetooth. Later model iPad and iPhone units seem to have much better reception and even with mine down in my lap on a kneeboard seldom do I lose accuracy (I have an iPad 2.) I sold my external GPS because it never seemed to improve accuracy over the internal GPS. If it is a concern one can still add a Bluetooth GPS which you can place up on your glareshield or wherever.

REMEMBER - if you want an internal GPS you MUST get the 4g version even if you never intend to use the 4g data plan. The WIFI version does not have internal GPS. I personally would never own a WIFI-only version anyhow because I find myself needing/wanting data away from WIFI constantly.

The last thing I would spring for is some sort of mount for the iPad. I use a RAM mount and so do many others. Google RAM mount. They have a variety of mounting options from attaching on a long flexible arm from your seat track, to suction cup mounts. They are working on a cradle specifically for the iPad Mini, not sure if it is available yet. Edit: Just checked, they now have cradles for the Mini!

I looked at a Mini for the first time today, at Walmart. I think I prefer my larger iPad for what I do - I don't fly IFR anymore and I tend to fly with it on my kneeboard more than up in a cradle in the cockpit. For me the larger display size is more useful particularly since I use it much more for other things than for flying. But, if I was going to fly with one on the yoke or glareshield and use it for critical phases of flight I could see real advantages to the Mini - the full size iPad can take up a lot of your viewscape when flying.

 

[mbundy]

I fly a G1000 without the charts enabled. The chart enable option is about $2500. I understand that in the G1000, it will show your progress on an approach chart. I also understand that when showing the approach chart, you lose your large moving map display.

So, I am trying to understand if there is another or better option such as an I-PAD. I understand that one would be less expensive. But, would it serve me just as well as the G1000 chart unlock? If so, what would you recommend to properly get set up with an I-PAD and approach charts? Will one with internal GPS also show progress on the approach chart? Will the mini version be suitable? I like its smaller size...

I have both G1000 charting options as well as an iPad. Other than training, I've never used FlightCharts or ChartView to fly an actual approach. I either use the paper plates or my iPad (ForeFlight or JeppView). I have used it to review various approaches/STARs/SIDs while enroute. I do consider it my 'backup' should my iPad fail enroute.

I think the $2500 is much better put towards an iPad and EFB (ForeFlight, WingX, etc) subscription. In fact, you can buy an iPad, accessories, ForeFlight, and 10 years of updates for the price of the FlightCharts/ChartView unlock!

Mike

 

[Alexb2000]

I fly a G1000 with an I-Pad with Foreflight Pro. I like this setup because of the way I want to lay out my information (3 screens vs. 2).

In busy airspace/large airports usually ILS approaches/SIDs/STARS I keep the MFD on the map page to see the big picture, traffic, the vectoring, etc. so I can plan whats coming next on a busy frequency. The I-Pad has the chart for my briefing and geo-reference for the approach plate. I also keep the flight plan inset up on the PFD to make sure of the way points.

Rural airports usually on a RNAV approach. I keep the MFD on the flight plan page so I can use the VNAV capability. You can't cancel/setup VNAV anywhere else. Approach plate with geo reference on the I-Pad, briefing, same as above.

That's my setup and the reason I don't use the charts on the MFD, it cost too much situational awareness. With the above I'm not flipping screens and pushing buttons, just locked on the approach, listening for my calls, with very little workload other than monitoring.

 

[douglas393]

I use my G1000 pretty much for everything. I use paper approach plates(I know old fashion) for the approach. I have an IPAD, but have not found it all the important. I also have a 796 and again do not use it. They are there for back up only, and I like the tracking feature of the 796 so that I can review my flight, and if I am doing maneuvers after the flight. Chandelles, steep turns, practice descents, turns about a point, etc look pretty cool on the track trace and it gives me an idea of how good or bad I was. My main issue with the portable is I have not found a place to put them. I like to have a clipboard and pad on my knee for writing things down, and putting the Ipad or 796 on the yoke covers some of the G1000, and does not let me use my paper approach plates. I also tried the co-pilots yoke and its just not useful there for me.

Doug

 

[DrMack]

DA40XL: G1000 for map display, iPad1 with Foreflight standard. The map display on the G1000 gives me a big picture leading up to final and then a simple twist on the range knob gives runway and taxiway details at the end of the approach. I do not subscribe to charts on the G1000 as those are all on the iPad, but I do subscribe to SafeTaxi on the G1000. I use a RAM mount for the iPad that suspends the display at eye level just to the left of the PFD. I still use a kneeboard, an APR MK9 designed for military helicopters and cramped fighter cockpits, with FlyWrite pads.

We had a trial subscription for the Garmin charts on the MFD but it was redundant to what I have on the iPad and even if the iPad goes belly up, the MFD map display is all the information I need to complete any mission so we cancelled the G1000 chart subscription.

 

[Henning]

I fly a G1000 without the charts enabled. The chart enable option is about $2500. I understand that in the G1000, it will show your progress on an approach chart. I also understand that when showing the approach chart, you lose your large moving map display.

So, I am trying to understand if there is another or better option such as an I-PAD. I understand that one would be less expensive. But, would it serve me just as well as the G1000 chart unlock? If so, what would you recommend to properly get set up with an I-PAD and approach charts? Will one with internal GPS also show progress on the approach chart? Will the mini version be suitable? I like its smaller size...

The procedure is painted on the display as a MLOD, that and a paper plate was what I used on the 500 Pre iPad, now I have an iPad with WingX. Does your G1000 have SVT?

 

[skidoo]

I don't have SVT... Sounds like an I-PAD should do well. Any recommendations as to what is the best hardware version to get and what to avoid? I-Pad Mini? Good, not good?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't have SVT... Sounds like an I-PAD should do well. Any recommendations as to what is the best hardware version to get and what to avoid? I-Pad Mini? Good, not good?

iPad Mini is fine - It's essentially an iPad 2 shrunken down, but most of the "shrinkage" was to the "border" area around the screen, so the screen is still a pretty reasonable size - Approach plates won't be quite full size, but they're still very readable.

That said, if you think you have room for the full-size iPad, that one has the much crisper Retina display plus newer processor, etc. - The Mini is mostly equivalent to the year-and-a-half-old iPad 2.

Also, if you're worried about being able to read the smaller display for plates, just head to the Apple store, open up Safari on both and go to airnav.com and scroll down to the links to the PDF approach plates and open them.

Get the 4G-enabled version, and at least 32 gig, preferably 64 - I think you'll be happier with it for longer if you get the most storage available. You can get away with less, especially if you're not going to download the charts for the entire US, but it's nice to be able to have music, movies, and lots of apps as well. You'll probably find a lot more uses for the iPad than just as an EFB once you have it, so maxing out the storage will give you the most potential capability.

Enjoy!

 

[Jaybird180]

Ahhh.....guys....

Did you all forget that the G1000 is IFR legal and the iPad is not? Perhaps you all are talking about something else????

 

[alaskaflyer]

Ahhh.....guys....

Did you all forget that the G1000 is IFR legal and the iPad is not? Perhaps you all are talking about something else????

Legal for what?

The legality of referencing current approach plates and using them for georeferenced tertiary tracking on the approach is exactly the same on an approved IFR GPS/MFD installation vs. a portable device such as an iPad. Anyone using either for primary guidance would be an idiot.

 

[Henning]

I don't have SVT... Sounds like an I-PAD should do well. Any recommendations as to what is the best hardware version to get and what to avoid? I-Pad Mini? Good, not good?

I have a wifi 32gb 2 and kept WingX after trying it and Foreflight because it provides an eSVT image of the Shuttle derived terrain database until I have the $4200 to unlock SVT on the 500. It also provides airport and IFR database further into the Bahamas and caries the 3D terrain database all the way down to 12N. That and NA plates which you can run side by side all for $200 a year with portability. I just wish the display was more cockpit and daylight friendly.
I'm hoping Samsung will provide a Win8 solution.

I would not buy a Mini without a Retina display, I think it's already reaching lower thresholds with the full size iPad. With the Retina display things are much clearer and then the scale down would be easier to tolerate for me and allow me to take advantage of the smaller package for mounting.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Did you all forget that the G1000 is IFR legal and the iPad is not? Perhaps you all are talking about something else????

How is the iPad not "IFR legal"? We're not using it for guidance, it is simply an EFB. Position being shown on the approach plates is for situational awareness only.

That goes for the G1000 too - The HSI on the PFD is for primary guidance, even if you have the approach plates on the G1000, your position shown on the approach plate is NOT ok to use for navigation, only for situational awareness.

For plates, the G1000 and the iPad are equal. What the G1000 does have is IFR certified guidance via GPS/VOR/LOC, but that's on the HSI on the PFD, not the approach plate.

 

[Henning]

How is the iPad not "IFR legal"? We're not using it for guidance, it is simply an EFB. Position being shown on the approach plates is for situational awareness only.

That goes for the G1000 too - The HSI on the PFD is for primary guidance, even if you have the approach plates on the G1000, your position shown on the approach plate is NOT ok to use for navigation, only for situational awareness.

For plates, the G1000 and the iPad are equal. What the G1000 does have is IFR certified guidance via GPS/VOR/LOC, but that's on the HSI on the PFD, not the approach plate.

I don't have plates but I get excellent procedural guidance including displaying the GNSS lead lines onto the various approaches. Yes, HSI is primary for guidance.

 

[flhrci]

So, paying these "unlock fees" to Garmin, what do you get exactly? A code to unlock the data? Like Microshaft or other software companies do?

David

 

[DrMack]

So, paying these "unlock fees" to Garmin, what do you get exactly? A code to unlock the data? Like Microshaft or other software companies do?

David

I am personally to blame. Let me explain:

They are trying to recoup the certification costs, which are the bulk of the development costs. It's the same reason a single article of the B2 costs the taxpayer $1.07 billion. When I was an avionics engineer in the early 1980s we produced a box that retailed for $250K. When it was shipped to airline customers around the world we didn't even insure it because the box itself had a very low intrinsic value. If one got lost or damaged in transit, oh well, make another one and ship it. So Garmin is looking at how many G1000 units are out there and how many there may be to come, and spreading the certification costs over some percentage of those units that are owned by folks who are highly propensed to pay for SVT capability. I am a G1000 owner and am happy as can be without the $10K SVT so I'm personally partly responsible for the high cost of turning it on for those who can't live without it.

 

[Jaybird180]

Sounds like it costs nothing to make

 

[skidoo]

So, I have been looking at the specs for the I-Pad's and I noticed under environmental conditions, it says maximum operating altitude 10,000 ft! Anyone know what happens if you operate it at 20K ft? Any comments from those who have used one above 10Kft?

 

[Henning]

So, paying these "unlock fees" to Garmin, what do you get exactly? A code to unlock the data? Like Microshaft or other software companies do?

David

Depends which option, but yeah, what you need comes on a chip.

 

[alaskaflyer]

So, I have been looking at the specs for the I-Pad's and I noticed under environmental conditions, it says maximum operating altitude 10,000 ft! Anyone know what happens if you operate it at 20K ft? Any comments from those who have used one above 10Kft?

Heat dissipation.

But I've never heard of an issue before. I know someone who had her MacBook and iPhone at about 17000 feet in the Himalayas for over a month. Of course it wasn't that warm either.

 

[TMetzinger]

Legal for what?

The legality of referencing current approach plates and using them for georeferenced tertiary tracking on the approach is exactly the same on an approved IFR GPS/MFD installation vs. a portable device such as an iPad. Anyone using either for primary guidance would be an idiot.

Yes and no.

The display of Georef Charts on the G1000 is a certified solution on certified hardware. The iPad/Nexus is not.

For part 91, they're both legal (and as you say, not the best idea for primary guidance).

But for part 135 and 121, the FAA forbids the display of own-ship position on non-certified EFB solutions like the iPad, while I believe it's just fine on the G1000 and Avidyne units. The "idiot" comment still applies, though. You have a CDI/HSI that is supposed to be your primary navigation reference.

I've said this elsewhere - I don't buy georeferenced plates for my EFB - because I know how attention-sucking that display can be. I prefer to use it the same way I used paper (at least for approaches) - use the chart to set up and brief the approach, and then focus on the approved nav systems to fly it. Once the approach is set up and briefed, the approach chart doesn't get that much attention, except for the occasional glance to confirm details.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, I have been looking at the specs for the I-Pad's and I noticed under environmental conditions, it says maximum operating altitude 10,000 ft! Anyone know what happens if you operate it at 20K ft? Any comments from those who have used one above 10Kft?

They work fine.

The above-10,000 limitation is almost certainly a holdover all the way back to the original iPod, which had a spinning hard drive. The thin air at high altitudes is not conducive to trouble-free operation of hard drives, hence the limitation on the original iPod.

Fast forward over the course of years, when it's time to write the limitations on the next device, the first thing they do is copy and paste from the previous one, and, well, they forget why the limitation was there in the first place but nobody wants to stick their neck out and remove it.

Many 135 and even 121 operators have gotten the iPad approved on their OpSpecs for use as an EFB, and there have been tests done by organizations to ensure they'll still work - I forget who it was, but I did read about an emergency depressurization test done with an iPad... So, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Henning]

I am personally to blame. Let me explain:

They are trying to recoup the certification costs, which are the bulk of the development costs. It's the same reason a single article of the B2 costs the taxpayer $1.07 billion. When I was an avionics engineer in the early 1980s we produced a box that retailed for $250K. When it was shipped to airline customers around the world we didn't even insure it because the box itself had a very low intrinsic value. If one got lost or damaged in transit, oh well, make another one and ship it. So Garmin is looking at how many G1000 units are out there and how many there may be to come, and spreading the certification costs over some percentage of those units that are owned by folks who are highly propensed to pay for SVT capability. I am a G1000 owner and am happy as can be without the $10K SVT so I'm personally partly responsible for the high cost of turning it on for those who can't live without it.

It's ok, the next owner will be able to afford to take it the last 10%..