Another- Do I file ASRS?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
On return to the SFRA I was on Flight Following. As is customary for me, I wanted to verify that I was "cleared" into the SFRA (not required, only required to squawk and talk). I received from the controller, 'cleared into SFRA and Bravo'. I replied, "Cleared into SFRA and Bravo. Thank you". I was glad he cleared me into the B as, otherwise, I'd have to duck under and frankly I mentally slept that one. Otherwise I'd have to orbit and descend to get under the B which begins a little inside the SFRA.

I was then handed off to another controller who asked about my being in the B. I told him that I was cleared into Bravo and he said, "Not by me!" I told him that I would duck under. But I was in the B for several miles until I was able to descend under the shelf.

Should I file?
 
If you are positive the first controller cleared you into the bravo, then it sounds like you have a bit of a jurisdictional issue. I don't think you did anything wrong and I wouldn't worry about it. Perhaps call the ATC facility and discuss it with them, there may be a modification or clarification needed in their operation.
 
Absolutely. Coordination among sector controllers is important, and the lack thereof could kill you if they really F up. Document this as that is about the only way you can improve the system. -Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Absolutely. Coordination among sector controllers is important, and the lack thereof could kill you if they really F up. Document this as that is about the only way you can improve the system. -Skip
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+1......
 
You were already in the Bravo when you got the handoff to the other controller? Doesn't make sense why this controller would be questioning you being in the Bravo. I would have told him that I was cleared in by XYZ approach.
 
Skip Miller said:
Absolutely. Coordination among sector controllers is important, and the lack thereof could kill you if they really F up. Document this as that is about the only way you can improve the system. -Skip
Click to expand...

I agree. It's not only for your protection, but others, too. It could have been a mental slip on the part of ATC (or even you), but I don't think anything bad will come from filing it.
 
I've already reached out to the QA Manager. The reason I'm 10000% positive I was cleared in is that I had a conversation with my passenger about the Bravo clearance I'd been given and why it was beneficial to help us find the airport from higher altitude versus getting lower.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I've already reached out to the QA Manager. The reason I'm 10000% positive I was cleared in is that I had a conversation with my passenger about the Bravo clearance I'd been given and why it was beneficial to help us find the airport from higher altitude versus getting lower.
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Well if push came to shove then, the ATC tapes should clear you.
 
Any chance of downloading the LiveATC archive?

Never hurts to double check yourself and then save it as proof if necessary.
 
Skip Miller said:
Absolutely. Coordination among sector controllers is important, and the lack thereof could kill you if they really F up. Document this as that is about the only way you can improve the system. -Skip
Click to expand...

+3 but make the calls to the controllers as well to clear any confusion.
 
I just completed the electronic submission. It was easier than I thought. I did guesstimate my time last 90 days and in type though.

Thanks POA.
 
This is a good example of a case where it doesn't sound like you personally were in trouble, but the ASRS could actually serve its real purpose -- aviation safety. We talk about it like a get out of jail free card, but its a lot more than that. Maybe there was some miscommunication at ATC that can be resolved, which is also why it was good that you contacted them directly about it.
 
I got a phonecall back from the TRACON QA Manager explaining the situation. He said that I was definately cleared into Bravo and that the controller who cleared me was responsible for the airspace and had situational awareness that I was there. He somewhat apologized for the extra freq changes which was a contributing factor as the freq I was given is not in the normal rotation.

He didnt seem concerned about the ASRS I filed or for any potential loss of separation or correcting the miscommunication amongst controllers (???). I'd be interested in seeing what happens next and if any corrections are issued.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I got a phonecall back from the TRACON QA Manager explaining the situation. He said that I was definately cleared into Bravo and that the controller who cleared me was responsible for the airspace and had situational awareness that I was there. He somewhat apologized for the extra freq changes which was a contributing factor as the freq I was given is not in the normal rotation.

He didnt seem concerned about the ASRS I filed or for any potential loss of separation or correcting the miscommunication amongst controllers (???). I'd be interested in seeing what happens next and if any corrections are issued.
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I don't think you'll hear anymore of it. If the controller who cleared you in did it without permission from a receiving controller, then it's an Operational Deviation. It's their internal bust, not yours. In that case, you'll never hear word of what "corrections" if any, occur.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I got a phonecall back from the TRACON QA Manager explaining the situation. He said that I was definately cleared into Bravo and that the controller who cleared me was responsible for the airspace and had situational awareness that I was there. He somewhat apologized for the extra freq changes which was a contributing factor as the freq I was given is not in the normal rotation.

He didnt seem concerned about the ASRS I filed or for any potential loss of separation or correcting the miscommunication amongst controllers (???). I'd be interested in seeing what happens next and if any corrections are issued.
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Looks like I'm late, but as others mentioned, no harm in filing an ASRS.

Curious, when given the intial Bravo clearance, were you given an altitude restriction?

As you may know, the Potomac Tracon is composed of several combined approach controllers, now housed under one roof. Although the consolidation took place more than a decade ago, there are occasionally minor miscues between the difference sector controllers.

Because unsolicited bravo clearances are so rare, if I'm given a hand-off following a Bravo clearance before actually entering the Bravo, I'll add that information to the next controller: "Potomac approach november one eight two victor level three thousand cleared into class bravo".

If I'm already in the Bravo, well that's the prior controllers problem.
 
we're you issued a BRASHER warning ? ( possible PD call this phone #)
 
If there's any question, always file. It can't hurt. As others have said, it also serves the purpose (its main purpose) of enhancing safety.
 
You should file ASRS not because you did anything wrong, but to point this out as a safety issue (which is the main reason for ASRS)

Jaybird180 said:
On return to the SFRA I was on Flight Following. As is customary for me, I wanted to verify that I was "cleared" into the SFRA (not required, only required to squawk and talk). I received from the controller, 'cleared into SFRA and Bravo'. I replied, "Cleared into SFRA and Bravo. Thank you". I was glad he cleared me into the B as, otherwise, I'd have to duck under and frankly I mentally slept that one. Otherwise I'd have to orbit and descend to get under the B which begins a little inside the SFRA.

I was then handed off to another controller who asked about my being in the B. I told him that I was cleared into Bravo and he said, "Not by me!" I told him that I would duck under. But I was in the B for several miles until I was able to descend under the shelf.

Should I file?
Click to expand...
 
I received a letter in the mail today confirming that I 'contributed to Aviation Safety' by filing an ASRS report. I received an ID Strip (slip of paper). The letter states that I should retain the strip for at least 3 years.

I'm attaching the letter if anyone is interested. It's anti-climatic. No band sung my praises nor did Black SUVs show up at my home.
 

Attachments

  • ASRS_Confirmation.pdf
    1.4 MB · Views: 17
BTDT.

I had a "possible pilot deviation" when a tower controller gave me a taxi clearance he didn't intend to. It was a movement area incursion, not a runway incursion.

I called the number right away with the instructor who had been in the plane at the time at hand. The tower controller gave a bunch of weasel words about how it "might have been" ambiguous. I filed an ASRS as soon as I got home, and the tower supervisor called the next day and said I did exactly as was told and the deviation was resolved with remedial training for the controller.

It happens. And the ASRS helps the national HQ figure out trends. Both of us helped that.

FWIW, reading the derived publication, "Callback," can be quite interesting.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html

The ASRS project is housed right here (KNUQ) and the FAA really doesn't have access to the raw reports. There are a few FAA guys here, but they work on NextGen and its relatives.
 
In this situation I think the pilot is entitled to an explanation - and he got one - concerning the sectors not apparently coordinating with each other. I rather enjoy getting chewed out by a guy who inside a Bravo quite a ways and who displays that attitude . . . where did you come from for gosh sakes?

FWIW - when cleared into the Bravo unless you are cleared 'own nav' you generally get a heading and altitude - if you got neither and are certain you heard cleared into the Bravo - then you really need to verify 'own nav' in the future.

Last week in Sandy Eggo took off from Gillespie and tower gave me 'right downwind' and when I climbed above the Delta airspace in a gap to 3300 I called SoCal who identified me and then asked destination and I told them 'Brackett, request direct Oceanside 4500' and heard 'Cleared into the Bravo own nav as requested.'

Keep an ear out for that, or a heading and altitude.
 
"Own nav" is a new one on me. Guess I learned my new thing for the day. (/sarcasm)
Thank you (/serious)
 
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