Another crash :(

These are the most difficult to try and figure out what happened... May they rest in piece
 
I flew my first cross-country a few days ago and went to 2I3 (two India three) ...as I was coming in over the trees seeing the lake\river, and I couldn't help but think about that Icon A5 crash. Now this crash is somewhat close to where I'm about to fly my first solo cross-country at 1M9, so now I'll be thinking about it too. Not that it will slow me down any, but it may subtract from the excitement and also add a touch of stress.
 
Never fly thinking you are gonna crash. Your mind has to be clear and focused on making sure you and whoever you have in the plane stays safe.

Mitigate risk by always following checklists. Never play chicken with fuel. Never takeoff under pressure (get-there-itis) or without a plan and the weather. Stay two steps ahead in the cockpit. Know your limits and don't exceed them.
 
Mentally prepare yourself to PUSH on climb out under a thousand feet (or 2) should the fan stop. More & more those are the moments that I find myself at highest alert. My engine has never given me the slightest reason for pause, but she's getting up there in hours. RIP to those involved in the accident.
 
iflyvfr said:
Mentally prepare yourself to PUSH on climb out under a thousand feet (or 2) should the fan stop. More & more those are the moments that I find myself at highest alert. My engine has never given me the slightest reason for pause, but she's getting up there in hours. RIP to those involved in the accident.
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I'm not following what you mean by "PUSH on climb out" ?

Is this an acronym I'm behind on?
 
Ryanb said:
I'm not following what you mean by "PUSH on climb out" ?

Is this an acronym I'm behind on?
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If the engine stops on climbout you need to get the nose down quickly to keep from stalling.
 
I think he means 'push' the nose down, should the engine fail. It can take quite a push to keep it flying, and avoid the stall. One has to take what's mostly right in front, low altitude after departure.

As to the referenced accident, sad. I have no clue what happened.
 
Ryanb said:
I'm not following what you mean by "PUSH on climb out" ?

Is this an acronym I'm behind on?
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Not an acronym. Lose your engine on climb out and you have to push the yoke/stick/side stick right now and aggressively to reduce your pitch angle to best glide. -Skip
 
I see mention of '500 OVC' at the time of this accident? I wonder what phase of flight the pilot was in? Cruise? Takeoff? Landing? Was there an IFR flightplan filed & flown??
 
Skip Miller said:
Lose your engine on climb out and you have to push the yoke/stick/side stick right now and aggressively to reduce your pitch angle to best glide. -Skip
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Only if you are climbing at less than best glide speed. Otherwise you don't need to push or pull on the elevator control. The plane will naturally (and rather quickly, actually) pitch down so as to maintain trimmed speed. I bet you $50 that if you take an airplane up to the altitude where you practice stalls and put it into a Vx or a Vy climb and the airplane's balance is within its Cg limits and you cut the engine and keep your hands off the elevator control and you video the airspeed indicator, it will barely budge (a few knots at most) from the trimmed climb speed. Left alone it may wallow through a few phugoids, but stall? Not likely.

I feel like I am the only bloody pilot on the planet who has actually experimented with engine loss on climb. I went through several permutations and climb speeds, including one where I had the trim all the way back and flaps down slowly climbing in a C-152 with the stall alarm squealing away. Cut engine - even then it didn't stall. Just pitched dramatically down. Scary - instinct is to pull back.

iflyvfr said:
Mentally prepare yourself to PUSH on climb out under a thousand feet (or 2) should the fan stop.
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No. Mentally prepare for the plane to pitch itself down rather abruptly so as to maintain its airspeed. Avoid the instinct to keep the nose up, though (the natural pitch down can be off putting.) I suppose if one needs some psychological trigger to avoid pulling, then an ingrained push may be preferable. Maybe. But it is aerodynamically redundant at best. Same $50 bet as I made to Skip Miller: make a video of the airspeed indicator of your favorite airplane in a climb, cut the engine while keeping hands off the elevator control, then if the video shows the airplane slowing so much it stalls you make an easy $50.

NealRomeoGolf said:
Capitalized for emphasis. Pitch for airspeed.
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The airplane already will pitch for the trimmed airspeed. The airplane immediately begins decelerating and the nose begins dropping. In the airplanes I fly (C-152 and C-172) the Vx and Vy speeds aren't far enough from best glide as to make much difference at low altitudes, so mucking with the elevator control is secondary to aileron control and turning to someplace friendly.

Salty said:
If the engine stops on climbout you need to get the nose down quickly to keep from stalling.
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Same $50 bet as I made to iflyvfr and Skip Miller.

sourdough44 said:
I think he means 'push' the nose down, should the engine fail. It can take quite a push to keep it flying, and avoid the stall. One has to take what's mostly right in front, low altitude after departure.
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Same $50 bet as I made to iflyvfr, Skip Miller, and Salty. The last quoted sentence is not unreasonable, though if some thought is given before each takeoff on friendly places to set down past the departure end, one may up the survival odds.

I don't know that anyone quoted will actually take my bets since none were expecting to be contradicted. I don't know that I would even win any or all of them if they were accepted and acted on, but obviously I have done enough experiments to feel pretty damn confident that an GA airplane withinCg limits will not enter a stall if the engine quits during a climb (probably regardless of configuration.)

Actually I would really like others to try the experiment regardless of any "bet" made to entice others to try it: enter a trimmed climb so hands-off elevator (or light as possible touch on ailerons if needed - rudders as needed of course), cut engine, watch (ideally video record) airspeed and artificial/real horizon to see how much they vary. My experiments have been in only two airplane models. Maybe I'll be out as much as $200 - or maybe this post will start getting some safety education for everyone. Maybe I'll finally bust a myth or be shown wrong.
 
I have never experimented like Jim, but maybe the word "PUSH" is a little offsetting for some in this conversation. Maybe "Forward Pressure" is a better term for the mental note to not to be PULLING when the nose pitches down. One time during a flight review (in a c-172) my instructor asked me what my plan was if the engine quit on departure. I told her above 1000' I would attempt a return to the runway, knowing, but not stating, that my MSL altitude would be more like 1700'... She pulled the throttle at 1000 MSL (I guess to prove that would be a bad mistake).... There was definitely a "holy Shyte" pause in my reaction, but I don't remember any need for a hard PUSH to maintain airspeed. I think I'm gonna try this at altitude soon. Seems like a very worthwhile exercise...
 
I've wanted to do a Vx and Vy trimmed climb at altitude, and pull power to see how quickly pitch would change. I never thought about how I would react at the yoke besides not pulling. Still I intend to try it next time I go up (it's been a long time).
 
I'm pretty good at keeping the nose down on takeoff. Landing is another story lol.
I've asked my CFI if we could practice the power failure on takeoff, but we can't seem to get there. Always working on other things....but I really want to practice before I cross country solo (very soon). I know the decisions will be dynamic, due to location, altitude, etc., when/if it happens, but I'd like to have practiced it.
 
With it being a Beechcraft Bonanza...should we speculate it was a doctor?
Kidding... Let's not get that started.

Update says a man and woman. Traveling from Davenport IA to Muscle Shoals AL.
 
Another day another crash. :( These depress me every time. Condolences to the family and friends.
 
FlySince9 said:
I have never experimented like Jim, but maybe the word "PUSH" is a little offsetting for some in this conversation. Maybe "Forward Pressure" is a better term for the mental note to not to be PULLING when the nose pitches down.
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Put me in the PUSH camp.

On average, it will take a pilot about 3 seconds to recognize what's going on and to react. By this point the airspeed may be very close to a stall, and a good PUSH is what it's going to take to get the nose down to avoid a stall and maybe get somewhere close to best glide so you can aim for something soft.
 
UPDATE:
HOPKINSVILLE, KY (KWQC)- UPDATE: Authorities have identified the victims in the small plane crash near Hopkinsville Kentucky.

According to the Associated Press, the victims are Dominic and Dr. Dianne Giammetta of Bettendorf, Iowa.
 
I missed something, was the A36 landing, taking off or in route? Was it weather, fuel starvation or simply pilot error?
 
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Update says a man and woman. Traveling from Davenport IA to Muscle Shoals AL
Believed to be enroute, but no cause determined yet, that I have seen anywhere.

as a side note, if interested, you can search the Dr. name and find information.
 
FastEddieB said:
Put me in the PUSH camp.

On average, it will take a pilot about 3 seconds to recognize what's going on and to react. By this point the airspeed may be very close to a stall, and a good PUSH is what it's going to take to get the nose down to avoid a stall and maybe get somewhere close to best glide so you can aim for something soft.
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I never liked PUSH nor do I like "forward pressure" for the stall recovery description. To me the only thing that makes sense is "Unload the wing" and the best way to describe that is move the elevator until you feel lighter in your seat (or for you crazy/wise folks with AoA until the AoA decreases out of the stall region).

The amount of movement depends greatly on things like CG and how deeply you've stalled. The force required is heavily dependent on the trim setting and in most airplanes, the engine power output.
 
FastEddieB said:
Put me in the PUSH camp.

On average, it will take a pilot about 3 seconds to recognize what's going on and to react. By this point the airspeed may be very close to a stall, and a good PUSH is what it's going to take to get the nose down to avoid a stall and maybe get somewhere close to best glide so you can aim for something soft.
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Only if a pilot attempts to maintain the pitch at the same angle relative to the horizon would an airplane slow to a stall on engine out. But if the pilot is holding a constant pressure, or no pressure (trimmed,) then the air speed will not change much. That is because by regulatory requirement trim (and implicitly constant back pressure) must act as an airplane's speed cruise control.

In fact, no airplane designed to Part 23 standards for trim and longitudinal stability will exhibit the behavior that you claim.

So I extend to you the same $50 bet I presented above: that if you put your E-LSA (presumably built to ASTM standards which have similar longitudinal stability requirements to those in Part 23) into a climb and trim to Vx or Vy climb speed, or hold constant stick force to accomplish same, then your Sky Arrow 600 will not stall within either 3 or even 300 seconds after you cut engine power.

If you decide to publicly accept the bet and I win, don't send me the $50 - just make a donation to Angel Flight West in that amount. But it is safer to not publicly accept the bet and quietly confirm it for yourself, then if it doesn't work out like you thought you aren't out a penny. Keep in mind none of the other posters I offered the bet to has yet publicly accepted. Maybe they don't want to take my money? Maybe weather hasn't been favorable to go up yet and video record the alleged stalls before accepting my bet so as to make it a sure-thing?
 
Wow. Did not think my post could possibly provoke such a response.

Jim Logajan said:
In fact, no airplane designed to Part 23 standards for trim and longitudinal stability will exhibit the behavior that you claim.
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I only know that pilots surprised by an engine failure, for whatever reason and with whatever manipulation of controls, can and do see a rapid degradation in airspeed unless an aggressive "push" is involved. If that "push" is more like a massive decrease in back pressure, so be it - pitch has to be aggressively decreased no matter how you say it. Trim state comes into play as well.

I'm not alone. "A big push" is mentioned in this video:


Not interested in bets or getting into a back-and-forth to prove who's right. My visualization and explanation of what to do if the engine fails after takeoff has held me and my students in good stead for many years. If you prefer a different way to express it, that's fine as well.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Only if a pilot attempts to maintain the pitch at the same angle relative to the horizon would an airplane slow to a stall on engine out. But if the pilot is holding a constant pressure, or no pressure (trimmed,) then the air speed will not change much. That is because by regulatory requirement trim (and implicitly constant back pressure) must act as an airplane's speed cruise control.

In fact, no airplane designed to Part 23 standards for trim and longitudinal stability will exhibit the behavior that you claim.

So I extend to you the same $50 bet I presented above: that if you put your E-LSA (presumably built to ASTM standards which have similar longitudinal stability requirements to those in Part 23) into a climb and trim to Vx or Vy climb speed, or hold constant stick force to accomplish same, then your Sky Arrow 600 will not stall within either 3 or even 300 seconds after you cut engine power.

If you decide to publicly accept the bet and I win, don't send me the $50 - just make a donation to Angel Flight West in that amount. But it is safer to not publicly accept the bet and quietly confirm it for yourself, then if it doesn't work out like you thought you aren't out a penny. Keep in mind none of the other posters I offered the bet to has yet publicly accepted. Maybe they don't want to take my money? Maybe weather hasn't been favorable to go up yet and video record the alleged stalls before accepting my bet so as to make it a sure-thing?
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I'm not sure I understand your bet. In the Cub, I climb out at about 60 with full power. I fly base and final at about 60 at idle. It seems like you're saying no trim adjustment should be needed. But that's not accurate. Eight or nine turns of trim are needed between takeoff and final. Langewiesche asserts that in an ideal airplane, the same stick position will give the same speed regardless of power setting. But the same trim doesn't give the same stick position regardless of power.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I flew my first cross-country a few days ago and went to 2I3 (two India three) ...as I was coming in over the trees seeing the lake\river, and I couldn't help but think about that Icon A5 crash. Now this crash is somewhat close to where I'm about to fly my first solo cross-country at 1M9, so now I'll be thinking about it too. Not that it will slow me down any, but it may subtract from the excitement and also add a touch of stress.
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I live in Lexington, KY for several years so fly into Rough River, and even Hopkinsville on occasion. Had my maintenance done at KOWB also. That is sad. For some reasons, these hit closer to home when they happen in areas we know, or have lived.
 
gismo said:
I never liked PUSH nor do I like "forward pressure" for the stall recovery description. To me the only thing that makes sense is "Unload the wing" and the best way to describe that is move the elevator until you feel lighter in your seat (or for you crazy/wise folks with AoA until the AoA decreases out of the stall region).
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I disagree. "Feeling lighter in your seat" doesn't mean squat. Wing "loading" doesn't mean squat. Hell you could be accellerating fast to the ground (which is what makes you feel lighter) and be nowhere near recovering from the stall. The only thing that matters is DECREASING ANGLE OF ATTACK. And the only way you're going to get that is to move the controls forward. Framkly, I'd go to the stops. Yes, too many (including Colgan pilots) it is counter intuitive to PUSH when you're heading to the ground, but this is EXACTLY what you need to do and if you are close to the ground you better do it quickly and get recovered if you have a prayer of pulling out afterwards.
 
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I've only had one engine failure on takeoff. A cropduster at Nassau in the Bahamas I was being paid to ferry back to Opa Locka after it had crashed there. I recall the pilot had switched tanks over the airport, lost the engine but misjudged and landed short of the runway, damaging the gear.

I had used the full length, so (barely) had enough runway to land on it when things got quiet. Pretty sure I was less than 500' and in my mind's eye I see a good push forward to regain speed and arrive in ground effect with enough airspeed to flare was required.

Anyway, I think all pilots are trained to do pretty much the same thing. Perhaps we're just using different words and mental imaging to say the same thing.

With no bets required!
 
If having PUSH ingrained into your head is what it takes to overcome the "survival instinct" to pull, which seems to be the cause of a lot of accidents, then so be it. Anything that keeps you from pulling back away from that ground that is rushing up at you is a good thing. But yeah, you don't have to slam it forward.
 
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Anthony said:
I live in Lexington, KY for several years so fly into Rough River, and even Hopkinsville on occasion. Had my maintenance done at KOWB also. That is sad. For some reasons, these hit closer to home when they happen in areas we know, or have lived.
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Have to agree...

Airmart in Lexington has a couple of planes I'd like to get my greedy little paws on.
Expecially that commander
 
The same PUSH idea can be applied to a Go-Around. When trimmed for landing and with landing flaps applying full go-around power will put you at a very high AOA. You have to really push to keep the nose down and build airspeed (plus a lot of right rudder). It's scary because you may not actually be climbing for a moment. When so close to the ground and you see it getting closer while you're full throttle it's hard to suppress the urge to pull up. Time's like that, you just have to trust in your training and fly the wing.
 
labbadabba said:
The same PUSH idea can be applied to a Go-Around. When trimmed for landing and with landing flaps applying full go-around power will put you at a very high AOA. You have to really push to keep the nose down and build airspeed (plus a lot of right rudder). It's scary because you may not actually be climbing for a moment. When so close to the ground and you see it getting closer while you're full throttle it's hard to suppress the urge to pull up. Time's like that, you just have to trust in your training and fly the wing.
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Yeah. I believe that a lot of go around training is a good thing. Like maybe CFI's having a personal policy that 1 in every [pick a number] approaches will be a go around during training. And that students learn the concept of every approach is to a go around until proven otherwise.
 
Pushing in a go around is a different concept from stall recovery. Every flight regime change is going to require some configuration and in that case, yes trim is going to affect just what you're doing. But rather than teaching you need to push or pull or whatever by rote on a flight regime change, you need to drill what ATTITUDE and POWER SETTINGS you want to have for the new regime. Put them there, then fix the trim. Yes, eventually, in a given plane, what you have to do in a given change will become instinctive, but the command-performance methodology will work in general across multiple aircraft.
 
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