Another airline job question?

[mtuomi]

Serious question - is SWA better than the others? I'm not an airline pilot, so I really have no idea.

How long is a piece of string?

 

[James331]

Serious question - is SWA better than the others? I'm not an airline pilot, so I really have no idea.

If you don't even have a PPL yet, by the time you qualify for a 121 job the airline who was top dog might not still hold that rank by the time you hit your ATP mins.

Id decide if its the lifestyle you want, worry about job 3 after you have at least landed job one first

It's our fault (the citizens) that our military is playing democracy builder around the world, not the men and women of the armed forces. Those people have taken an oath to defend our constitution and the citizens of this country from foreign and domestic aggression. The military as a whole is directed by our freely elected government. That government ultimately answers to the American citizens. Stop blaming the people that have volunteered their lives to protect my freedom. Blame the voters that have allowed our government to act unchecked because they are more worried about their own entitlements than foreign policy.

Furthermore if you think it's somehow offensive or selfish for a person that is willing to die for your freedom to leave military service with a trade skill such as being a pilot then yes. I think you're offensive. It's not a flying club. They are training to operate military equipment as combat assets. It's not a free ride to all things great in the civilian world of aviation. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Arguing that it's the soldiers fault for volunteering is a lame attempt to miss direct the blame away from those who are actually responsible.

Next time you see a solider of combat arms you should thank him/her and apologize for the government leadership we , as citizens, have allowed in office.

Protect the constitution, enemy's foreign and domestic, tell that to the US citizens who were droned to death. And no, you are a human, just because you signed on the line isn't a carte blanche check. And give me a break on protecting freedom, that hasn't been the case since WWII.

I'll drop this topic, its still wrong to sign up to fight BS wars just for free education.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Not to mention the millions of lives changed by harry Truman and the "govmint" sponsored GI BILL after WW2 which made it possible for millions of vets to go to college. It changed this country drastically for the better, making a large, powerful, productive middle class!

Too bad this country doesn't still recognize this.

Hopefully Obama's community college initiative comes to fruition .


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[Tarheelpilot]

If you don't even have a PPL yet, by the time you qualify for a 121 job the airline who was top dog might not still hold that rank by the time you hit your ATP mins.

Id decide if its the lifestyle you want, worry about job 3 after you have at least landed job one first




Protect the constitution, enemy's foreign and domestic, tell that to the US citizens who were droned to death. And no, you are a human, just because you signed on the line isn't a carte blanche check. And give me a break on protecting freedom, that hasn't been the case since WWII.

I'll drop this topic, its still wrong to sign up to fight BS wars just for free education.

We will just have to disagree. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Henning]

Something like this has probably already been asked, but here goes nothin'. My dream job is a SWA pilot (FO or PIC) thinking about this job makes me drool. Anyway id like to know from some of you how long something like this would take and the best route to acheive it. Sitting on my couch typing this seems so far fetched of a dream, but how practical is it? Should I enroll in collegiate aviation somewhere? Get a BS degree in something other than aviation and fly at an FBO on the side? Or try and get a pilot slot at UPT? I assume most answers will be, get your CFI, then get hired at a regional, upgrade to PIC fly left seat for another 5+ years to get the multi turbine time and then..just then.. If im lucky enough.. Could i get hired into the right seat of a SW 737. How do most major pilots nowadays get where they are? Military or Civil?

Military is still probably the best route to the majors.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Go down the street to your local Tuna-Sea Air National Guard. Tell them you want to join the 134th Aerial Refueling Wing. Tell them you want to be a boom operator. You will in due time become an enlisted air Crewmember with one of the coolest jobs in the AF.

Because you'll be a vital Crewmember you will get to know ALL the pilots in the wing and they will get to know you. The ANG will provide funds for you to go to college. Maybe even 100%. Once you get your degree go straight to your unit commander and tell him you want to be considered for the NEXT UPT slot. Since you've already been an air Crewmember for a couple of years EVERY pilot that sits on that selection board will already know you - unless you're a total F-Up it's all but guaranteed.

You'll now be sent to UPT KNOWING in advance the Aircraft you will be flying - A multi- crewed Boeing jet. This may not sound as sexy as an F-22 but believe it or don't multi-crewed Boeing jet time is FAR more attractive on an airline application then fighter time.
Additional you won't have to give the AF 12 years of your life before you can leave like you would have to in an active duty situation.

Even better there will no doubt probably be one or two pilots in your Guard Unit that are also SW Pilots so now you've got an in to SW as well !

You can do all the above without putting yourself $100,000.00 in debt with a logbook full of cessna time and no real experience. Plus you'll bypass the whole regional airline stop.
What if SW has to Furlough some junior pilots ? - No problem, just tell the Guard you'd like to pick up some active duty time and the paycheck keeps coming.

Compared to the Embry Riddle Astronaut program this is just a NO-BRAINER !!!

I know quite a few that have gone this route and it has worked out extremely well for them!

I just thought of one other thing about the ANG. It's definitely unit-dependant, we always give internal guys a shot at the interview, however it's not even close to being guaranteed at getting a UPT slot for our enlisted guys. We send the best candidates to UPT so if the military is even a longshot in your mind - keep a close eye on those grades.

This is also true. One of the guys in my pilot training class didn't get hired at his own guard unit. Instead they went with some lady off the street whos dad was some general(not even in their state). He just applied to a different unit and they picked him up immediately.

Believe it or not, most folks outside the US couldn't give two Forks about you, your wife or your kid, and they really don't care about your way of life ether.

Look, all I am saying is, the biggest threat to this country of ours is from inside, weakening our economy puts as at far more of a risk than some goat farmer half way around the world, who up until people started rolling HMMWVs down his street and drones started dropping bombs, didnt really give two craps about America to start with.

Trying to latch onto the govt tit for everything you can, like flight training, just adds on to the burden and weakens the country.

You make it sound like people join, get trained, and then immediately quit. If you don't like the fact they spend a lot of money to train, I'll stop doing training flights, train just in the simulator, and we'll see how proficient I am. Yeah taxes pay for all that training, which I still have to pay.

I don't really consider signing up to spend years of my life halfway across the world where I not only have to worry about the risk of flight, but the risk of hostiles on the ground.

Have fun watching the super bowl tomorrow, I'll be delivering vaccines and food aid across the atlantic to one of those countries that, "doesn't give two Forks about us"

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Too bad this country doesn't still recognize this.

Hopefully Obama's community college initiative comes to fruition .


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As harry Truman Said in the bio " plain speaking" ......" The only thing new is what you have not read yet."

 

[Art VanDelay]

Who do you think pays for your training, jet fuel, aircraft and pretty ribbons for your uniform, who pays for you when you get sick, your food, etc, the private sector, that money is TAKEN from US citizens.

You need to get it straight, next time you see a small business owner, a guy roofing, sales people, contractors, pilots, etc, be a man and tell them "thank YOU for your support".




No I haven't, and I'm damn proud of that. I didn't agree to kill for senators and special interests just to pay for my school and a new pickup truck.
I never filed BK, and I've never been on welfare, or any thing like that, I got to where Im at on my own merits.

So what percentage of the US millitary budget is diaster relief and SAR ops, how does that compare to everything else?

Your obviously a COWARD but don't worry there are even women that will fight for you if need ever be.

 

[Art VanDelay]

I always wonder where this comes from - Art what is your experience with airline hiring practices? I got job offers from United and Delta on my first hack at it. Of all the military guys I've flown with I'd say that it's either even or slightly tilted towards the fighter side of guys I know who've been hired at a major. I've never heard of anyone that actually makes hiring decisions in the airlines say that heavy time is worth more than fighter to them. In fact, I've heard the exact opposite at both interviews.

To the OP - the ANG is certainly a good opportunity, either way start a degree. You don't have to decide your major right now, but if you get out of the studying/school mode very long it's tough to go back.


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Evil,
I work for the same employer as you do and I know who I'd rather share a cockpit with when it comes to the two different mind sets. The one is "I'll do everything myself" and the other is "crew oriented" from the get go. I'm not saying that's cast in stone but you just got here. Stick around awhile and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Henning]

I know a fair share of military pilots from both sides of the heavy/fighter issue, don't think there is evidence that either has preferential treatment with a major airline. Where I do see a preponderance of transport guys is in the contract freight field.

 

[Henning]

As for SWA, they seem to have the least employee/management animosity, and most SWA crew I see are smiling and seem to be enjoying their lives, plus I don't recall them ever doing any mass furloughs. Of course between now and the time you get there, management may have changed.

 

[James331]

Your obviously a COWARD but don't worry there are even women that will fight for you if need ever be.

Yeah, you're a hero dude, brave as brave can be, taking a billion dollar US warplane up against some poorly trained 3rd world goat farmer with his equally poorly maintained AK. Glad to know studs like you will protect little me when those guys ride their goats and drive their chitty pickups across the ocean to storm the beaches of the east coast lol.

This ain't the same America the founding fathers knew.

As for the airlines, if you got the hours and ratings, you got the hours and ratings. Having 121 multi turbine time is king, second only to seniority.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yeah, you're a hero dude, brave as brave can be, taking a billion dollar US warplane up against some poorly trained 3rd world goat farmer with his equally poorly maintained AK. Glad to know studs like you will protect little me when those guys ride their goats and drive their chitty pickups across the ocean to storm the beaches of the east coast lol.

This ain't the same America the founding fathers knew.

As for the airlines, if you got the hours and ratings, you got the hours and ratings. Having 121 multi turbine time is king, second only to seniority.

Your callousness and ignorance is profound.

 

[EvilEagle]

You got me there, I am the new guy but I still a have yet to hear or see anything proving that airlines prefer heavy drivers over fighter guys. I hear heavy guys selling that line all the time, but never seen proof...

Saying that we are all "do it all ourselves" is about as closed minded as if I said that all heavy drivers were the bottom of their class in pilot training. There is strong evidence against both statements. It seems like you have a pre-determined attitude about fighter guys, that's too bad. Hopefully the fighter pilots you share a cockpit with won't have the same.


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[LDJones]

Yeah, you're a hero dude, brave as brave can be, taking a billion dollar US warplane up against some poorly trained 3rd world goat farmer with his equally poorly maintained AK. Glad to know studs like you will protect little me when those guys ride their goats and drive their chitty pickups across the ocean to storm the beaches of the east coast lol.

This ain't the same America the founding fathers knew.

As for the airlines, if you got the hours and ratings, you got the hours and ratings. Having 121 multi turbine time is king, second only to seniority.

Wow. Just, wow.

 

[hindsight2020]

evileagle is an airline pilot now? Hopefully he got a retirement check rather than getting run off property by the ART conversion shenanigans going on as of late (this is AFRC, not sure if the Guard is having similar dynamics).

As to heavy vs fighter, my unit has them both and the airline hiring doesn't seem to favor one over the other, guys are getting picked up in similar amounts. All of the fighter guys have had no problems transitioning to copacetic gear monkeys, I mean first officers I think the argument for resistance to change on the part of these fighter types is overstated. I'm sure there are guys who can't make the transition, but I haven't heard much in the way of it in my squadron.

 

[EvilEagle]

Yup, I'm a airline guy now. Still doing part time with the ANG.


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[Velocity173]

Who do you think pays for your training, jet fuel, aircraft and pretty ribbons for your uniform, who pays for you when you get sick, your food, etc, the private sector, that money is TAKEN from US citizens.

You need to get it straight, next time you see a small business owner, a guy roofing, sales people, contractors, pilots, etc, be a man and tell them "thank YOU for your support".




No I haven't, and I'm damn proud of that. I didn't agree to kill for senators and special interests just to pay for my school and a new pickup truck.
I never filed BK, and I've never been on welfare, or any thing like that, I got to where Im at on my own merits.

So what percentage of the US millitary budget is diaster relief and SAR ops, how does that compare to everything else?

James, usually I agree with your posts but your anti-military rants are just bizarre. I attribute them to a basic lack of understanding of military ops possibly because of all the negativity that published or simply because you haven't served in that capacity. Sure, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you that the Military Industrial Complex is out of control but don't blame it on the men and women that are serving honorably around the world.

Just because the military isn't in direct defense of our "beaches" doesn't mean they have no purpose but to rob you of your tax dollars. Sometimes you have to fight wars in other countries to prevent a direct conflict on our shores in the future. That's just foreign policy common sense. A country of power like ours must also intervene as a third party in war to prevent further needless loss of life. Where would the Balkans be right now if we hadn't intervened in Bosnia or later on in Kosovo? Chaos, that's where. Not every conflict can be resolved through political means. That's just wishful thinking.



Aid to China or Haiti after an earthquake. SAR assistance for airline crashes or maybe a Cirrus who pops a cute off Hawaii. Tsunami aid to Japan and Indonesia. Aid to Pakistan after record floods. Response to an Ebola in Africa. Natural disasters in the US isn't just a National Guard responsibility either. I flew FEMA around after Hurricane Irene and I was active. We were actually on standby for the entire east coast for ANY natural disaster.

When a captured aid worker is praying to be freed in Somalia or Yemen, who's gonna risk their lives to come and get them? Furthermore, who do you think transports those aid workers in war torn countries? And when they die (Badakhshan Massacre) who do you think transports their dead bodies back to the US? The US military, that's who.

The military isn't some "hammer" killing goat farmers as you say either. I assure you the measures taken in ROE to prevent the needless loss of life to that goat farmer is extreme to the point of endangering our own lives. Seen that first hand as well.

As far as getting those ratings on the tax payers dollars, they weren't exactly handed out. Yeah they're free but at a steep personal cost. The training that I received in the Army was far more difficult than any training I've done in the civilian world. They take training to the extreme, then add on a bunch of extraneous additional duties to make sure I'm occupied. Just look at the comment from "Turbofan" in the AF Drone thread. My current civilian flying job is a joke compared to what I had to do in and out of the cockpit in the Army. I don't know of a single person who joins to get ratings. I suppose they're out there but service, making a difference in the world should be their primary reason.

To the OP, good luck with your airline quest. Personally don't care for big jets but to each his own. As long as you get paid to fly and not sit behind a desk doing paperwork, life is good.

 

[Henning]

I think our military has some of the best people in the country, and are capable of doing much good, and do so when tasked. The problem is we don't concentrate on tasking them that way, even though it would achieve their goals in a much less costly fashion, especially in lives.

 

[RotorAndWing]

People such as James will never be happy, regardless of what anyone post here.

I did 4 years in the Navy as an Avionics Tech. I did my small part of the mission and I'm glad for the experience. In exchange I got the GI Bill which paid for my Commercial/Multi/CFI and CFII. My GI Bill was a matching program, for every dollar I paid in they matched with $3. Pretty good deal IMO.

 

[EvilEagle]

Serious question - is SWA better than the others? I'm not an airline pilot, so I really have no idea.

That all depends on what is important to you. It also has a lot to do with when you got hired. The guys getting hired by SWA right now are being told 10-12 years till the left seat. There were two guys in my Delta in-doc class that left SWA for Delta. Even after two years of seniority at SWA, Delta was good enough for them to leave.

Personally, international travel and not doing 5-6 legs a day is what I'm looking for. I never considered applying to SWA because it doesn't interest me in the least, but others still say it's their dream job. That's the beauty of it, you have options.

SWA used to be able to say they pay the most, but that's not even close to accurate now. They will come up with something else to lure pilots though - making people pay $5-8k to get their own type rating before getting hired was genius but I can't see that continuing to attract good people since they are no longer the pay leader.


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[Slipkid65]

I am very close friends with a 20 year SW Captain, so all of the opinions below reflect his.

That all depends on what is important to you. It also has a lot to do with when you got hired.

This, in a nutshell is the KEY to a successful airline career. When comparing majors, there are a lot of variables to consider, but the ONE thing that never changes is that the more senior you are, the better your life will be.

The guys getting hired by SWA right now are being told 10-12 years till the left seat.

That sounds pretty optimistic, but, in this business, you never know. The guys that have upgraded at SW in the last few years were told 5-6 year upgrade and most were closer to or more than 10. 9/11, age 65 and the great recession changed the landscape.

There were two guys in my Delta in-doc class that left SWA for Delta. Even after two years of seniority at SWA, Delta was good enough for them to leave.

Times change, but I know several guys that left SW for UAL and DAL in the late '90's. All of them would've been far better off staying at SW. When I say far better, I mean that instead of getting furloughed, for years, they'd have upgraded at SW.

I also know several guys who left other airlines, including DAL in the 90's to go to SW.

My friend was considering leaving SW in 98 and going to DAL. After very careful consideration, he figured that even with a multi year furlough from DAL (which he knew was likely and did happen), that at retirement age, he'd be better off at DAL, mainly because of the retirement. As a guy with a wife, kid, mortgage etc., weathering a furlough was not to be taken lightly, but he did decide to apply to DAL anyway.

As it turned out, even with well over 10k hours, almost 6k PIC turbine, 5 type ratings, FEJ rating and current in 4 737s, he did not meet DAL's minimum qualifications for hiring, as he did not possess a 4 year degree. It was somewhat of a relief for him, as he did not have to make the decision to leave 3 years of seniority behind him.

Any disappointment he might've felt disappeared in Jan 2001 when he upgraded. Post 9/11, he was actually GLAD he left college for a flying job, as he might actually have gotten hired (and subsequently furloughed a few years later) at DAL otherwise!

My old man was a Pan Am pilot that ended up at DAL with the Atlantic routes. If you told him on the day he was hired at Pan Am in 1960, that he'd retire from Delta, he'd have laughed in your face, as Delta was not much more than a regional at the time. You never know.....

Personally, international travel and not doing 5-6 legs a day is what I'm looking for.

SW has started international, and my friend hasn't done 5-6 legs per day in over a decade. 5-7 legs over a 3 day s pretty average.

I never considered applying to SWA because it doesn't interest me in the least, but others still say it's their dream job. That's the beauty of it, you have options.

Funny, but my friend had never considered applying to what amounted to a regional at the time either, but NO ONE else was hiring in the early to mid '90's when he was stuck at the commuter level. Heck, being a NYer, the only thing he knew about SW was that they had an airplane or 2 painted to look like Shamu. Several friends got on with SW and convinced him to give it a shot. He is very glad he did, because it worked out very well for him. He's sitting at around 1200 in an 8000+ pilot group.

SWA used to be able to say they pay the most, but that's not even close to accurate now.

Actually, prior to 9/11, SW were amongst the LOWEST paid pilots (per hour) in the industry, closer to Spirit than AA or DAL. Some of the disparity in hourly pay was made up by (far) better productivity. There was not a lot of sitting around in the old days, so a SW pilot could make a lot more per duty hour than the hourly rate belied. 10 minute turns were not a myth.

Post 9/11, the rest of the airline's pay scales tanked. At the same time, during some of the worst times the airlines have ever seen, SW pilots signed a contract with significant pay raises (in '02), making them amongst the highest paid narrow body pilots in the industry.

The economy has turned around a bit, so the big guys are negotiating better pay rates. SW is in contract talks too, so we'll see how they do while the company is making record profits. .

They will come up with something else to lure pilots though - making people pay $5-8k to get their own type rating before getting hired was genius but I can't see that continuing to attract good people since they are no longer the pay leader.

The type requirement (as ridiculous as it is) was around long before 2002, when SW got a decent contract and the rest slid back. Even then, guys were lining up in droves to get hired by SW. I foget the number, but when SW opened it's application window, they'd get thousands of apps for a few hundred positions. And every one of them had to have the type in hand, even to be interviewed. They changed it a few years later where you could be hired, but had to get it before starting class.

For clarification, SW just requires that you have the 737 type. They don't care how you got it, you just have to have it.

In spite of chat room rhetoric, it is not a PFT situation, in fact, you couldn't pay SW for the type (or any other training), even if you wanted to.

I hope they get rid of that requirement, which might've been useful 30 years ago, but serves little to no purpose now and, IMHO, only eliminates a lot of potential candidates.


As for the military vs. civilian hiring thing. At SW, these days, the classes are almost always a majority of ex military types. I'm not sure if it's an indication of hiring preferences at SW, or that the (typically) more industry savvy civilian guys are seeking other opportunities that don't require a type. This wasn't the case until recently, btw, so I suspect it is the latter.......

I've flown with plenty of folks from all backgrounds in my nearly 30 year career, and I can definitively say that the best, and worst, come from all of them. The 2 absolutely worst pilots I've ever personally flown and had to take the airplane away from were a pure civilian and an AF fighter guy. Both were truly frightening to fly with. The civilian guy got drummed out of the business, but the fighter guy is still flying. Alternatively, the best guys I've flown with come from all backgrounds.

That said, if I had to pick a new hire to go fly hard IFR with me into busy airspace all day, not knowing anything else, I'd pick a seasoned former regional guy all day and twice on Sunday, as they've BTDT.

Bottom line is, all things being more or less equal, go to the airline that hires you. If you get hired by more than one, you have a tougher decision, but that's a very good problem to have!

As of today, if I were working at a regional or somesuch, and had job offers from SW and DAL in my hand, I'd most likely pick DAL, for all the reasons mentioned.