ANOTHER ADIZ violation

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
Heard on WBFF Fox 45 local news this morning - another DC Adiz violation. I didn't hear all the details but what I did catch - a small twin skirted the ADIZ in the vicinity of Bay Bridge airport and was met upon landing by federal officials and state police.

No news links so far - but the mildly good news is, this story was a late in the half-hour story on a local channel, vs. major headline media news. Maybe we're getting boring to the news people.

Good. Out of the media is out of the public hysteria - to a degree.

Bad. ANOTHER one made the media in some form. After all the publicity in the last three weeks, how bone headed do you have to be?!?
 
All things considered, the ADIZ was built over the standard class B airspace. One has to wonder how many incursions there were prior to the ADIZ versus the current amount. It's not like the airspace has a line painted around it.
And that would be 4 in a week. How does it relate to pre-ADIZ?
 
The difference between the ADIZ and the B space is the ADIZ goes to the ground.

Time was you could fly between National and Dullas or National and BWI under the B space and have no problems. Now if you fly below the B shelf you still have to talk to Potomac and they get EXTREMELY busy, so the temptation to skirt the airspace a little too close is very strong.
 
I don't think there are any more than there were. We just hear about them because the evac made ADIZ incursions a cause du jour for reporters who are too stupid or two lazy to come up with their own story ideas.

Pack journalism is a travesty. Spend any amount of time among reporters and you quickly realize the one thing they don't teach in J school is common sense.
 
Yeah. Journalism today is like 7-year-olds playing soccer. They all run to where the ball is.
 
Another thing that is interesting to me is flying through the area is seamless when IFR. Last time I was up there on an instrument flight plan, Center vectored me right through the ADIZ as a short cut to HGR. I had filed up the east coast and over when north of the ADIZ. So, it's VFR traffic that hasn't obtained a clearance and transponder code.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Another thing that is interesting to me is flying through the area is seamless when IFR. Last time I was up there on an instrument flight plan, Center vectored me right through the ADIZ as a short cut to HGR. I had filed up the east coast and over when north of the ADIZ. So, it's VFR traffic that hasn't obtained a clearance and transponder code.

Best,

Dave

Maybe we should ban VFR and recreational flying, leave aviation to the rich businessmen who NEVER make a mistake. Dave, the last intercept involved an IFR aircraft.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Another thing that is interesting to me is flying through the area is seamless when IFR. Last time I was up there on an instrument flight plan, Center vectored me right through the ADIZ as a short cut to HGR. I had filed up the east coast and over when north of the ADIZ. So, it's VFR traffic that hasn't obtained a clearance and transponder code.

Best,

Dave

Was the original flight plan totally clear of the ADIZ? Did you file that IFR flight plan by phone or DUATS? If the answers to these two questions were "clear" and "DUATS", do you realize that you are another ADIZ violation, the only difference between you and the "Smoketown 2" being that the DHS/HLS/FAA system is so incompetent that it failed to catch you?

Using the above not as a lynching of Dave, but as an example of how easy it is to fall into a trap around the DC ADIZ.

Y'all be careful out there.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Was the original flight plan totally clear of the ADIZ? Did you file that IFR flight plan by phone or DUATS? If the answers to these two questions were "clear" and "DUATS", do you realize that you are another ADIZ violation, the only difference between you and the "Smoketown 2" being that the DHS/HLS/FAA system is so incompetent that it failed to catch you?

Using the above not as a lynching of Dave, but as an example of how easy it is to fall into a trap around the DC ADIZ.

Y'all be careful out there.

Ed,

The AFSS filing requirement is mandatory (which is why I always file with AFSS, despite the 25 minute wait to talk to a briefer at Leesburg on Monday). However, if you file with an AFSS (as opposed to DUATS), I see nothing in the NOTAM that says you have to remain clear if ATC vectors you through the ADIZ, even if you filed "clear" of the ADIZ originally.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Was the original flight plan totally clear of the ADIZ? Did you file that IFR flight plan by phone or DUATS? If the answers to these two questions were "clear" and "DUATS", do you realize that you are another ADIZ violation, the only difference between you and the "Smoketown 2" being that the DHS/HLS/FAA system is so incompetent that it failed to catch you?
New info from Leesburg FSS -- you can file IFR into/through the ADIZ via DUATS; only VFR need be filed over the phone. If you don't believe me, call Leesburg AFSS (866-225-7410) and get that answer on tape.

Now, this is NOT written clearly in FDC NOTAM 3/2126, which states:

7. PRIOR TO OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT IN THE DC ADIZ, PILOTS MUST
FILE THEIR FLIGHT PLAN WITH AN AFSS; MUST ACTIVATE THEIR
FLIGHT PLAN PRIOR TO DEPARTURE OR ENTERING THE DC ADIZ; AND
CLOSE THEIR FLIGHT PLANS UPON LANDING OR LEAVING THE DC ADIZ.

However, Leesburg AFSS did run it past the FAA IG (not the Chief Counsel, althought one suspects the two do communicate on such issues), along with not requiring VFR aircraft to "close" their VFR ADIZ flight plans with AFSS, but merely to turn off their transponders after landing in the ADIZ or squawking 1200 when departing the ADIZ. (Anyone here ever called Leesburg Radio after leaving the ADIZ near Easton to "close" their VFR ADIZ flight plan? I didn't think so.) This is a workload issue for them, and they were getting buried.

The bottom line is that DUATS is incapable of handling VFR ADIZ flight plans, so the only way VFR ADIZ flight plans can be filed is via an AFSS. However, if you file an IFR flight plan via DUATS rather than an AFSS, neither ATC nor NORAD can tell the difference.

That said, I'm sending this whole mess to the EA RC for clarification, since right now somebody could get burned if they follow Leesburg's advice.
 
MSmith said:
Yeah. Journalism today is like 7-year-olds playing soccer. They all run to where the ball is.

That's why I read blogs.......And I work in the media
 
I filed with Leesburg.

I went through special use airspace, acording to the AOPA planner. My low altitude charts did not have the ADIZ on them at that time. Just Class B and other restricted areas. So, it may not quite be accurate that I went through the ADIZ.

Planned the flight at my Daughter's home looking at the low altitude enroute chart. Was going around to the west, but Leesburg recommended east because VFR was just east and ceilings were a little higher. There was a system moving in from the west and there were icing conditions pretty low. I had more room to stay under icing conditions east.

Was given a clearance that went northeast from Chesapeake. Don't know if I still have notes from the flight, but essentially was cleared Cape Charles (CCV), Snow Hill (SWL), Smyrna (ENO) Westminster (EMI) direct HGR. I specifically asked about the ADIZ and was told if IFR it was not an issue if following my clearance.

Departed, was essentially cleared as filed with the exception of passing over Norfolk on the way up.

I was single pilot IMC and hadn't flown in this area before. (Told FSS that would be the case). As I flew northeast, things were uneventful until north of Salisbury (which is just north of Snow Hill). I received three different reroutes within a very short period that took me west to Swann intersection. From there, almost directly over BWI to Hagerstown. Was vectored around P-40. I checked the clearances very carefully and declined to accept one by telling him I was unfamiliar with an intersection and was checking it. Center came back with direct Swann and I accepted that. Seems to me like that put me in special use airspace, but not the inner circle around D.C. Also put me right through R-4001A which I specifically requested clearance through.

Have to say, there are a lot of folks crossing through there on IFR flight plans that have also stated it's seamless when IFR.

We can raise the debate again about following the controller's instructions. I was IMC on and instrument clearance following the clearance given.

So, is that a bust?

Best,

Dave
 
Didn't know about the last intercept being an IFR aircraft. Please share some details.

Actually, I called Leesburg for two reasons: the weather was bad as a frontal system was rapidly moving through. Also, not having any idea what routing I would get no matter how I filed, I asked the briefer for his opinion and he actually called Center to check on the route we mutually decided upon. While I realize it's my responsibility to stay clear, the briefer was excellent in suggesting routing and Center had agreed to the routing. Mentioned my concern about the ADIZ and he said those filing IFR like I was and talking to Center weren't a problem. (Have to say it was one of the most competent briefers to which I've talked.)

If the weather was very nice, I might have filed using Duats. However, I still would have checked with someone about the routing. It's bad enough being in an unfamiliar area IMC. Don't need to be sorting through complex rerouting just before departure.

The original routing might have clipped a bit of the northern part of special use airspace north of BWI. But, they also may have intended to vector me around like they did for Camp David.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave,

I believe if you filed on the phone with Leesburg, you're OK under the NOTAM. If you read the notam the way I do, the only special requirements for IFR traffic are filing on the phone.... and staying out of the FRZ altogether.

If a violating plane is IFR and they lose comms, it will be a concern because maintaining 2-way communications is required in the ADIZ.

I'm welcome to hear opposing views with a reference to what I missed.

Ed?
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, I'm sending this whole mess to the EA RC for clarification, since right now somebody could get burned if they follow Leesburg's advice.

Leesburg opinion notwithstanding, I'd want a written opinion before I tried it. And yes, it would have saved me 25 minutes on Monday - the length of time I sat on hold with Leesburg AFSS waiting to file. I got the briefing via DUATS.
 
Thanks Bill:

I've been told several times by Controllers, FSS and other ATC folks with which I communicate that IFR is seamless and no different than at any other time except for the inner ring (which I would assume they would keep you out of).

I sympathize with folks that have to deal with this daily. Especially with those VFR or making short local flights. Locals would be in a position to know much more about the immediate area. For those of us that aren't local and are just passing through, IFR seems to be the best alternative for those of us with the rating.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks Bill:

I've been told several times by Controllers, FSS and other ATC folks with which I communicate that IFR is seamless and no different than at any other time except for the inner ring (which I would assume they would keep you out of).

I sympathize with folks that have to deal with this daily. Especially with those VFR or making short local flights. Locals would be in a position to know much more about the immediate area. For those of us that aren't local and are just passing through, IFR seems to be the best alternative for those of us with the rating.

Best,

Dave

IFR is seamless. But technically (subject to what Ron said above) you have to file by phone with AFSS and you must stay on the squawk and cancel on the ground. They will accept air-cancels although you still have to stay on the squawk... but a close reading of the NOTAM says you can only close the flight plan on the ground after arrival in the ADIZ.

I file and fly IFR anywhere in that area.... heck, I file and fly IFR unless I'm doing practice work in this local area (and almost always under FF).
 
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