ANNUAL -- is Done

Lawreston

Lawreston

En-Route
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
4,573
Location
Georgetown, ME
Display Name
Display name:
Harley Reich
Oh, how it pays to pay attention to(and resolve) the little items which may occur during a period of one year.

The ANNUAL: Parts = $105.08
Labor = 450.00

Total = $560.33 (1971 C-172L Skyhawk)

Maybe that's why almost every instructor has said, "For its age, this has to be the smoothest-running 172 I've ever taught in."

HR
 
You know, I know that's cheap for an annual, but it still disgusts me that an A&P can make a routine annual that expensive.
 
curious nick, what do you think a fair hourly shop rate is for an A&P with IA?
 
tonycondon said:
curious nick, what do you think a fair hourly shop rate is for an A&P with IA?
Click to expand...

About $30, based on the difficulty of the job, IMHO. I know, car mechanics make more. They're overpriced too.
 
SkyHog said:
You know, I know that's cheap for an annual, but it still disgusts me that an A&P can make a routine annual that expensive.
Click to expand...

Next time you're at the FBO, take a look at the service manual for whatever you fly. There will be an annual inspection checklist in the manual. There's a lot of things to look at,adjust and lubricate, plus there's all the work it takes to be able to look at the things that need to be checked - inspection covers, interior removal, etc. Then everything needs to be buttoned back up, ADs need to be checked, and so on. It really is a lot of work, and to get an annual for a 172 for $560 is a real bargain.


Trapper John
 
Trapper John: A little history. The same place has done all but two annuals on this plane since after I bought her in 2000. When its first annual was due(under my ownership) I called to make an appointment. When I stated the tail # the reply was, "72Golf? Is that so-and-so's old plane? Piece of cake! That plane's been babied for almost 20 years." The "tradition" has continued.

HR
 
SkyHog said:
You know, I know that's cheap for an annual, but it still disgusts me that an A&P can make a routine annual that expensive.
Click to expand...

Do you have any clue as to what's involved with getting an A&P rating? And also the tremendous liability that goes along with every log book entry made? How about the investment in tools and manuals?

How about getting an IA rating? Did you realize IA's have to renew their rating every 2 years? My last IA renewal seminar was $150.00. Also IA's are required to maintain a library with current and up to date information, not to mention the liability that goes with the sign offs.

When I was working as an A&P/IA my shop rate was $90/hour. My tool box alone has about $15,000 worth of tools, not including all the specialized tooling I had to work on specific aircraft. Couple that with the Product Liability insurance premiums that are a small fortune in itself.

Too many pilots and owners think that since flying is their hobby it should be the mechanics also. I tell people that don't like it to go get their own A&P/IA rating then do the work themselves.
 
SkyHog said:
About $30, based on the difficulty of the job, IMHO. I know, car mechanics make more. They're overpriced too.
Click to expand...

I am curious, are you using thirty as a "shop rate" as Tony asked or as what you feel is a fair wage for the A&P/IA? While I would agree for a one man operation this would appear to be the same thing, he still has overhead and therefore these are different numbers.

Nick, (I am not trying to be a smart alec or anything, being new here I just don't know much about you) Have you ever assisted on an annual to see what goes into one? I am sort of assuming you have by your statement but I don't know, I am just trying to understand your POV.

As to the OP it is amazing how much good preventive maintenance can save you in the long run.
 
WingNut42 said:
I am curious, are you using thirty as a "shop rate" as Tony asked or as what you feel is a fair wage for the A&P/IA? While I would agree for a one man operation this would appear to be the same thing, he still has overhead and therefore these are different numbers.

Nick, (I am not trying to be a smart alec or anything, being new here I just don't know much about you) Have you ever assisted on an annual to see what goes into one? I am sort of assuming you have by your statement but I don't know, I am just trying to understand your POV.

As to the OP it is amazing how much good preventive maintenance can save you in the long run.
Click to expand...

I have, actually. I don't mean to be a jerk, and I didn't mean to stir up people, but honestly, the work isn't hard.

1) remove screws
2) look inside
3) replace screws
4) write up what's wrong.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I feel the same about auto mechanics too. Its not a hobby thing, its a plain and simple cost thing. They charge as much as they do because they know people feel they have to pay it.

The difference, because of the FAA's awesome policies and regulations, we don't have the option of fixing simple things ourselves like we do with cars.
 
WingNut42 said:
As to the OP it is amazing how much good preventive maintenance can save you in the long run.
Click to expand...

Preventative maintenance is everything. An owner who stays ahead of his airplane and fixes items as they need repair as well as just the routines of filter cleaning, lubricating and keeping the aircraft clean, etc., come out much better at annual time.
 
SkyHog said:
The difference, because of the FAA's awesome policies and regulations, we don't have the option of fixing simple things ourselves like we do with cars.
Click to expand...

Sure you have an option. It's called "Experimental Homebuilt". Build your own aircraft, get a repairman certificate for that aircraft and you are free to do whatever you please maintenance wise.
 
SkyHog said:
I have, actually. I don't mean to be a jerk, and I didn't mean to stir up people, but honestly, the work isn't hard.

1) remove screws
2) look inside
3) replace screws
4) write up what's wrong.
Click to expand...
You're missing one simple thing: Knowing what to look at, and what to look for. You're paying for the guy's knowledge and experience as much or more than you are the actual labor.

My Zodiac's annual is due in June. I expect to do all of the grunt work myself. That still leaves a large amount of an 8-page, 106-item checklist for the IA to do - and that doesn't include the engine.

I feel the same about auto mechanics too. Its not a hobby thing, its a plain and simple cost thing. They charge as much as they do because they know people feel they have to pay it.
Click to expand...
Do you know what goes into getting an A&P ticket? Rotor&Wing covered the IA; the A&P itself takes, in addition to testing, 18 full-time months of creditable experience (2800 hours). There are many, many specialty tools involved, and creditable experience isn't just showing up to work: it's time spent actually working on an airplane, under supervision. I expect to spend several years building that much experience, working at it part time. If you choose to go the route of a training school, expect to spend as much as you would on a commercial, multi ticket with lots of hours of time.

A&Ps aren't getting rich. They're mostly doing it because they like working on airplanes.
 
SkyHog said:
I have, actually. I don't mean to be a jerk, and I didn't mean to stir up people, but honestly, the work isn't hard.

1) remove screws
2) look inside
3) replace screws
4) write up what's wrong.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I feel the same about auto mechanics too. Its not a hobby thing, its a plain and simple cost thing. They charge as much as they do because they know people feel they have to pay it.

The difference, because of the FAA's awesome policies and regulations, we don't have the option of fixing simple things ourselves like we do with cars.
Click to expand...

There is an old joke about this with the punchline it's the knowledge that makes the persons time valuable.

You missed the steps between three and four. Know what your looking at and how to identify problems.
 
SkyHog said:
I have, actually. I don't mean to be a jerk, and I didn't mean to stir up people,........
Click to expand...

I don't think you are being a jerk you answered my question, you have your opinion which you are entitled too. I wasn't trying to judge your statement as right or wrong just trying to understand your pov.

Anyway I agree with the argument you are paying for knowledge and the proper equipment more than the labor.

Jon
 
SkyHog said:
About $30, based on the difficulty of the job, IMHO. I know, car mechanics make more. They're overpriced too.
Click to expand...

When he says "SHOP RATE" he is talking hangar rent, insurance costs, lawyer costs, EPA charges, Taxes, Labor costs, Everything, right down to the stuff to clean the floors, and the items in the restrooms and the pilot waiting area.


You thought that coffee was free :)

If the A&P isn't a good business person, they will not last long, and won't be there the next time you need them. they will be in some FBO some where working for 12 bucks per hour.
 
Tom-D said:
If the A&P isn't a good business person, they will not last long, and won't be there the next time you need them. they will be in some FBO some where working for 12 bucks per hour.
Click to expand...

right, and the shop will be charging $60 for them. FWIW I paid my A&P 50/hr for the annual on my glider in march. Of course, it still only cost me $150.
 
Tom-D said:
If the A&P isn't a good business person, they will not last long, and won't be there the next time you need them. they will be in some FBO some where working for 12 bucks per hour.
Click to expand...

Point well-taken and a reference: this operation has been in business -- family-owned -- for somewhat(?) over 60 years. The IA signatory in the Log Book didn't do the work but, son of the late founder of the airport, he's been "with it" since teen-age days(a lot of years); and his son did the work.
The reputation runs far and wide. Flyers come there from Europe to get a float plane rating.

HR
 
Point taken. I freak when I see shop rates for anything nearing $100 or more, but I suppose when everything is expensive in Aviation $100 is a pretty good deal.

Besides, that's very inexpensive for an annual.
 
oh heck, the annual inspection and service on my cherokee 140 was a bit more than that and I did a lot of the open/closing of panels.
 
US Navy Sub is making a noise (Noise in subs is bad).

None of the engineers can figure it out. They decide to call up Joe, who retired.

"I'll come look at your sub, but it's gonna cost $10,000 per day."

"OK"

Joe shows up, walks along the side, points to a rivet and says, "That's your problem right there..." and marks it with a red X.

The other engineers burn up slide rules and shake thier heads.... "Yep, that's it!"

A few weeks later US Navy contracting office wants an itemized bill from Joe.

Joe replies:

BILL
ONE ea RED Grease Pencil ----- $0.05
Knowing where to write the X ---- $9,999.95
 
tonycondon said:
right, and the shop will be charging $60 for them. FWIW I paid my A&P 50/hr for the annual on my glider in march. Of course, it still only cost me $150.
Click to expand...

I paid mine $50/hr also but I used less than an 1 hr of the A&P's time. But then I spent 4 hours removing and reinstalling covers and panels. I also serviced the brakes and hydraulic flap system. And I had already inspected and repaired or had ready to repair a few items I had already found. If I had had him do it all it would have been closer to $250.

But don't let it get out about how much it really costs to run an A&P shop. We keep a good supply of A&P's because they look the current rates and see that they can charge $50 to $90 an hour for...

1) remove screws
2) look inside
3) replace screws
4) write up what's wrong.

Then after they spend 2 to 4 years getting there A&P rating they find out that the local pizza delivery guy is taking home more money than they are and the Landlord and insurance company's are taking most of that $90 /hr.

Actually I think many small business get started that way. If the owners actually knew what was involved to be successful most would never do it.

Brian
 
Last edited:
I asked an insurance company what it would cost for liability insurance for my free lanced A&P activities. the price was 2500 per month, plus 20% of my gross. (NOT the adjusted gross)

Needless to say, I run self insured.
 
Lawreston said:
Oh, how it pays to pay attention to(and resolve) the little items which may occur during a period of one year.

The ANNUAL: Parts = $105.08
Labor = 450.00

Total = $560.33 (1971 C-172L Skyhawk)

HR
Click to expand...

You, my friend, just got away with something close to highway robbery. Enjoy it while it lasts!

:smile:
 
My annual this year was my most expensive since I have owned this airplane. I got it going in 1995, and this year I had to get another set of cylinders and have them overhauled. I had to have new pistons and rings, top overhaul gasket set, the valves ground and the old cylinders removed and the overhauled ones installed. To do that and the annual was $ 4,600. Oh, I had to replace the valve lifters as well. My mechanic comes to my hangar and lets me open it up for the annual as well as service the battery, and pack the wheel bearings. The $4600, didn't include the $500. I paid for the 6 used cylinders I had overhauled. Bob
 
Bob Bement said:
My annual this year was my most expensive since I have owned this airplane. I got it going in 1995, and this year I had to get another set of cylinders and have them overhauled. I had to have new pistons and rings, top overhaul gasket set, the valves ground and the old cylinders removed and the overhauled ones installed. To do that and the annual was $ 4,600. Oh, I had to replace the valve lifters as well. My mechanic comes to my hangar and lets me open it up for the annual as well as service the battery, and pack the wheel bearings. The $4600, didn't include the $500. I paid for the 6 used cylinders I had overhauled. Bob
Click to expand...


IOWs you got a annual, a top overhaul, and discrepancies repaired for 5100 bucks,, not bad
 
Tom-D said:
IOWs you got a annual, a top overhaul, and discrepancies repaired for 5100 bucks,, not bad
Click to expand...
That is a very good point Tom. My annual is normally around $700-800/year each and every year I have owned the plane. However, there has usually been some extra charges as a result of finding things that need repair. The lowest annual+maintenance charge I have gotten was $1500. I try to stay ahead of the airplane and get things fixed when they need fixing instead of letting it all line up for annual time. But I have also been in Bob's shoes, twice, haivng to do an annual and a top overhaul. That adds up realy quick. Since he went for rebuilt cylinders his pain was less than mine.
 
I think my mechanic knows that I can't afford to own and fly a 182 all by myself, and he helps me out. He doesn't have the overhead of owning a shop, and all of the expense that goes with it. He is a life saver for me. And he does a great job and when he gets through I never have to worry about it not being right.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0094.JPG
    IMG_0094.JPG
    3.7 MB · Views: 9
You may not want to come here. I may have the highest aircraft shop rate in Kansas ($100.00). But it does help pay for my 50K a year insurance payment, those $5,000.00 special tools, and 30 years of experience. I just don't see the value in a shop that will keep throwing $7,000.00 parts at a $100.00 problem, it happens all the time. There is value in good and honest work.

Kevin
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top