Annual Inspection Tips & Advise

[JLowe]

So as to not hijack the other thread I wanted to start a new one where hopefully you guys could fill me (new owner) in on some of the secrets learned through your experience when dealing with an Annual Inspection.

From the other thread:

1) Talk to other owners in the local area and find an IA that has a proven track record. Make sure the IA doesn't have a boat payment due at the same time.

2) Learn the rules of airworthy items and what constitutes an inspection.

Both of these points are good advice. Are there any other tips you would recommend? What lessons did you learn between your first couple inspections? Anything you would've done differently if you could?

 

[murphey]

Some here are strong advocates of owner-assisted, some aren't. However, any reputable shop shouldn't object to you watching and asking questions to learn more about your aircraft.

However, be prepared for a different process than you would see at a car repair shop.

 

[wabower]

Get an inspection guide for your plane so you'll know what to expect.

Ask about shop policy re parts pricing and whether they will buy rebuilt or as-removed if you want.

Be sure the shop is adequately staffed to finish the job quickly. None of the "well, I had a guy off sick" BS when they haven't touched it for a week after you deliver it. Get a "will be done by" date. Tell them you expect to hear immediately if they suspect any change in timeline.

Determine shop policy re authorization from you before any work is performed.

Determine how shop bills for specific items. Actual time? Flat rate? If they screw it up and the procedure takes twice as long, do they eat it or try to find some way to stick it on the bill?

So as to not hijack the other thread I wanted to start a new one where hopefully you guys could fill me (new owner) in on some of the secrets learned through your experience when dealing with an Annual Inspection.

From the other thread:

1) Talk to other owners in the local area and find an IA that has a proven track record. Make sure the IA doesn't have a boat payment due at the same time.

2) Learn the rules of airworthy items and what constitutes an inspection.

Both of these points are good advice. Are there any other tips you would recommend? What lessons did you learn between your first couple inspections? Anything you would've done differently if you could?

 

[NoHeat]

Shops typically produce a long list of 'discrepancies' that they propose to remedy, and it's the owner's job to decide which of those to decline. Mike Busch has written columns about this for the Cessna and Cirrus type-club magazines. I recommend the articles -- if you belong to one of those clubs, you can probably find the back issue online.

I opted to hire his company, Savvy, to manage my pre-buy and annual inspection, and I'm glad I did. They recommended ignoring about half of the discrepancies identified by the service center, at a considerable savings to me. The savings exceeded the fee to Savvy. Savvy has its own staff of IA's who help choose a shop and then examine the shop recommendations, and they recommend to the client what to do. They recommend only the service that is necessary (e.g., IRAN magnetos after 500 hours as recommended by its manufacturer) vs. what is not (e.g., overhaul constant-speed prop after a certain number of years as recommended by its manufacturer).

 

[steingar]

Assist if you have the time and inclination. Other than that, bend over and take it like a man.

 

[JLowe]

Assist if you have the time and inclination. Other than that, bend over and take it like a man.

haha great advice so far. I am a member of CPA, so I will see if I can find those past articles mentioned above. I've also read up on SAVVY but I think I'd like to try to manage things myself first.. I'm hoping finding the right IA (which I think I've done thanks to recommendations) should help.

So I keep hearing about owner assisted.. I've for sure spent a lot of time at the shop the two times I had mine in, asking a ton of questions about everything. How long does it really take to remove and replace all the inspection plates? Is there other stuff that I can do besides that and just asking questions and seeing first hand the problems?

Really good points about setting a time to pick the plane up and asking for immediate notification if something changes.

 

[Tom-D]

hopefully you guys could fill me (new owner) in on some of the secrets learned through your experience when dealing with an Annual Inspection.

As an A&P-IA that does annual inspections, my best advice is to find a self employed A&P-IA that will come to your hangar and do the inspection, and allow you to order the parts needed like oil filters, oil, tires, brake pucks, stuff like that.

If they are in your hangar, and they say the loose knob is a airworthy issue, you can run their dumb A## off.

Free lanced A&P-IA's do not have the advantage of tearing your aircraft apart and telling you it will cost umpteen million to put it together again.

They have no control of where you buy parts, but ask them, they may get a discount for you.

 

[wabower]

You can short-cut that expense by using a shop that adheres to the same philosophy and practices that Mike does.

Shops typically produce a long list of 'discrepancies' that they propose to remedy, and it's the owner's job to decide which of those to decline. Mike Busch has written columns about this for the Cessna and Cirrus type-club magazines. I recommend the articles -- if you belong to one of those clubs, you can probably find the back issue online.

I opted to hire his company, Savvy, to manage my pre-buy and annual inspection, and I'm glad I did. They recommended ignoring about half of the discrepancies identified by the service center, at a considerable savings to me. The savings exceeded the fee to Savvy. Savvy has its own staff of IA's who help choose a shop and then examine the shop recommendations, and they recommend to the client what to do. They recommend only the service that is necessary (e.g., IRAN magnetos after 500 hours as recommended by its manufacturer) vs. what is not (e.g., overhaul constant-speed prop after a certain number of years as recommended by its manufacturer).

 

[denverpilot]

You're already a CPA member, which is the item I was going to add to your general list...

If there's a strong type-specific club for your aircraft, join it. Also, don't hesitate to avail yourself of reading anything and everything they've published, and if they're like CPA (or the Bonanza one, so I've heard), take advantage of classes on your type, and don't hesitate to call them and talk to them in person.

Some stuff, the type clubs will hold back a little on in published documentation, but talk to the principals and they'll give you an earful about some things they're not happy about with various manufacturers. They might say in print "any manufacturer that makes X is fine" and in person say, "I don't think any of them are a bad product, but if I were buying it for MY airplane, I'd buy it from XYZ."

The other thing type clubs seem to do better than many information sources MOST of the time, is kill off the ever-presenet old-wive's-tales that are created by the whole process being "mysterious". There are mechanics like Tom and others here who really enjoy educating customers on the vagaries of their profession, and others who like to keep things close to the vest as if it will give them an advantage over the owner of the aircraft. Stay away from the latter, they're not helping anyone other than themselves, to your wallet.

I liked Tom's comment about hiring a guy who'll come to you, there was a chuckle in that one for me, but it's not always necessary... the hardest part is finding someone you trust. The second hardest part is finding someone who isn't charging enough to send men to the moon.

The Experimental crowd hasn't piped up here, but they will... it's always an option to do LOTS more of the work yourself. Then the question still is, "Do you trust the guy doing the maintenance?" Heh heh... a man has to know his limitations to pull off doing their own maintenance work.

I just paid a plumber to tell me something I probably already knew... but in the end, it's better to have a professional opinion, and he detailed a number of ways to save money on the end-result if I feel like trading my time for his money. He will end up getting the business to do the work, because he showed he was interested in my problem, not in lining his wallet by not sharing what he knew. I know he knew it too... his company has been asked back to this house three times in 11 years. They're not the cheapest, nor even necessarily the best, but they always are straight with me about my options.

That's something I value. Some owners don't. They want to hand the checkbook to someone and have it all done now, and the money nor the ability to think about it, isn't their priority. Often in those cases, their priority is mitigation of down-time. When you need the airplane for business travel, or whatever... you just need it.

Our little merry band of co-owners is stewing over an IFR GPS. We've agreed we're in no hurry, and while we're pretty sure we've figured out the best options for us, we're still sitting on pulling the trigger... but we'll probably go there eventually.

Maybe that's a better way to put it. Find a mechanic that matches your style, but also keeps you safe. Lots of "subjectiveness" to that particular statement, but it's really where everyone is happiest.

 

[JLowe]

Really good comments from Tom and DenverPilot, thank you. I also like the idea of the IA coming to me, but I have a lonely patio hangar -- so no closed in area to work. Maybe after I move out of the rich neighborhood (KADS) I can afford something a bit nicer.

In the meantime I've been recommended to someone in the area by several folks on here and in CPA, and by reading lots of good reviews. Hopefully I won't need any of this advice, but I'm totally in agreement in getting as much information as possible.

 

[Tom-D]

Really good comments from Tom and DenverPilot, thank you. I also like the idea of the IA coming to me, but I have a lonely patio hangar -- so no closed in area to work. Maybe after I move out of the rich neighborhood (KADS) I can afford something a bit nicer.

In the meantime I've been recommended to someone in the area by several folks on here and in CPA, and by reading lots of good reviews. Hopefully I won't need any of this advice, but I'm totally in agreement in getting as much information as possible.

You do not need a closed area to work in, just good weather. you do not require a gear cycle where the aircraft must be placed on jacks and off the ground.

your 172 is a pretty simple aircraft to inspect and does not require that it be completely open all at the same time.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Shops typically produce a long list of 'discrepancies' that they propose to remedy, and it's the owner's job to decide which of those to decline. Mike Busch has written columns about this for the Cessna and Cirrus type-club magazines. I recommend the articles -- if you belong to one of those clubs, you can probably find the back issue online.

I opted to hire his company, Savvy, to manage my pre-buy and annual inspection, and I'm glad I did. They recommended ignoring about half of the discrepancies identified by the service center, at a considerable savings to me. The savings exceeded the fee to Savvy. Savvy has its own staff of IA's who help choose a shop and then examine the shop recommendations, and they recommend to the client what to do. They recommend only the service that is necessary (e.g., IRAN magnetos after 500 hours as recommended by its manufacturer) vs. what is not (e.g., overhaul constant-speed prop after a certain number of years as recommended by its manufacturer).

Meh, the best bet is to do your own due diligence and research the items, get on the groups online for your aircraft and ALWAYS price out your own parts.

I always do a owner assisted annual, it keeps me intimately familiar with my aircraft and keeps the APs honest.

If you dont have time to get personally involved in your annuals, might be best to stick to renting. This last annual I did I was forced to drop the plane off and pick it up (something I never have done before), I am figuring now it cost me a extra $1000 by me not being there

"Savvy manages 8% of the U.S. Cirrus fleet."
Well that just about sums that up, got mucho money and only fly 3 hours a month, they ya go! Wonder how many Stinsons, Champs, PA-18s, or planes in AK they deal with, guessing few.

This is even worse in states like California, where prices go up for no apparent reason.

 

[Silvaire]

As Tom suggested - freelance, your hangar, owner assist. You will do most of the grunt work such as open panels, remove seats, etc. As your inspector does compression and timing checks and inspects the engine and exhaust you can be opening the airframe.

Another worthy assist is to make a list of components with part and serial numbers such as engine, airframe, mags, starter, generator, vacuum pump, ELT and anything else you can think of that may be subject to an AD. Time in service or time since overhaul or replacement would be great too. It will cut down on the first annual overhead for the new IA - stuff he won't have to research the second time.

If you're really ambitious you could look up the AD's online or go over an existing compliance list and find the relative compliance entries in the logbooks, marking them so the IA can locate them as he will initially need to verify each one. All of that takes time.

Of course, first you'd have to find an IA that will do an owner assist but some of these things will help even if you end up going into a shop.

 

[dmac5356]

Owner assist... my most expensive annual in 34 years was $400 labor, plus the usual service parts from Spruce.

Check out my book: http://www.aircraftmaint.com/

 

[wabower]

Some things I've learned over 40+ years and more than 100 owner-assist years are:

Keep a copy of the parts list in the plane and in your laptop so that that you can order a needed part while on the road. Ditto AD list.Everything that happens in aviation MX is based on part numbers.

If you're working with a mechanic, ask him/her for a detailed show-and-tell as he works through the routine stuff so you can learn the procedures for timing mags, compression checks, r&r plugs and harness, how to check for exhaust leaks, etc. Also record the torgue values for everything that is normally removed or might come loose.

All MX isn't performed at home. If your plane has a known weak spot (such as alternator belt failure on old 210's) or common failure mode, learn how to replace and carry spare part and tools.

For example, I know that tailwheels are the achilles' heel of Cessna 180's and always carry an inflated spare along with bearings, axle, hardware (cotter pins) bottle jack and pad and ground-cloth/space-blanket/tarp in a toolbox (that also serves as a foot-stool and seat) in the bag compartment. I also carry a small bike pump with built-in pressure gage. Over the years I have changed a flat tire enough times to know I'll never travel without the spare. And if you break down on the road, finding a mechanic is easy but finding one with parts on hand is rare.

Carry some small tools in the cockpit. Trim screws fall out on every trip, usually replaceable with small Phillips. Many avionics failures can be fixed by simply "re-racking" the component by using a small Allen wrench to unlock and the unit to slide out a couple of inches then push back in and re-lock.

A can of WD-40, a length of clothesline or light rope, vice-grips, duct tape and electrical tape, a cheap volt-meter, a spare nav-light bulb, spark plug and a collection of sheet-metal screws, machine screws, bolt, nuts, washers, tie-wraps and safety wire can also be handy.

I carry a LED head-band light in the computer bag in addition to several flashlights in the plane. Parts and service manuals are available on the web, and can be stored in your lap-top.

A set of tie-down ropes and a couple of small chocks can be handy, especially for events (fly-ins and airshows) where availability is even worse than normal.

The stuff I carry weighs about 15# requires ~2 cubic feet. The plane flies a little better with some weight at aft CG limit, so it's a win-win to haul it around.

Another worthy assist is to make a list of components with part and serial numbers such as engine, airframe, mags, starter, generator, vacuum pump, ELT and anything else you can think of that may be subject to an AD. Time in service or time since overhaul or replacement would be great too. It will cut down on the first annual overhead for the new IA - stuff he won't have to research the second time.

If you're really ambitious you could look up the AD's online or go over an existing compliance list and find the relative compliance entries in the logbooks, marking them so the IA can locate them as he will initially need to verify each one. All of that takes time.

Of course, first you'd have to find an IA that will do an owner assist but some of these things will help even if you end up going into a shop.

 

[John221us]

Just so there is another point of view. I don't perform my own maintenance. It is true that I pay more by not doing it myself, but isn't that the case with anything? I trust my mechanic more than myself and he doesn't fix any squawks without physically showing me the problem, first. I am fairly mechanically inclined and I could probably pull off a field repair, if I had to, but my time is also worth something to me and I don't see the same value in playing mechanic apprentice removing inspection panels as others do. Many people I know also do not do thier own MX, so I know I am not the only one who operates this way.

 

[wabower]

Cost is only one part of the equation. The method used by shops is inherently inefficient in that they write down every squawk for the entire airplane, transfer it to a work order, price out the labor, parts and sub-let costs and present a total quote or estimate to the customer. When you do it yourself, you're able to open, inspect, lube and fix (move a wire bundle a half-inch and add a tie-wrap) many of the issues and close up the inspected area within 10 minutes.

By so doing, you can easily condense the time period that the plane is out of service and be flying again within a few days max. For owners who actually use their airplanes regularly, the advantages are significant. I don't always participate in the MX, especially if several big projects are under way, but enjoy it when time permits.

Just so there is another point of view. I don't perform my own maintenance. It is true that I pay more by not doing it myself, but isn't that the case with anything? I trust my mechanic more than myself and he doesn't fix any squawks without physically showing me the problem, first. I am fairly mechanically inclined and I could probably pull off a field repair, if I had to, but my time is also worth something to me and I don't see the same value in playing mechanic apprentice removing inspection panels as others do. Many people I know also do not do thier own MX, so I know I am not the only one who operates this way.

 

[John221us]

Cost is only one part of the equation. The method used by shops is inherently inefficient in that they write down every squawk for the entire airplane, transfer it to a work order, price out the labor, parts and sub-let costs and present a total quote or estimate to the customer. When you do it yourself, you're able to open, inspect, lube and fix (move a wire bundle a half-inch and add a tie-wrap) many of the issues and close up the inspected area within 10 minutes.

By so doing, you can easily condense the time period that the plane is out of service and be flying again within a few days max. For owners who actually use their airplanes regularly, the advantages are significant. I don't always participate in the MX, especially if several big projects are under way, but enjoy it when time permits.

You are probably right, but I am not sure I would even know that a bundle of wires needed to be moved a 1/2". I trust my mechanic to have that knowledge, as this is what he does every day and I do not. He is also much more likely than I am to spot a problem, because he knows what he is looking for. I could easily overlook a an exhaust stain or something significant, thinking it was normal, where it might be an indication of an exhaust leak (just one example of something I have overlooked in the past). I guess I am fortunate that I trust the shop I use and don't feel they are using me strictly to increase their profit margins. I discuss everything they find with them and usually view the problem with my own eyes. I have never felt they were trying to pull one over on me. I am sure, if I were as experienced with aircraft maintenance as I am with computers, it would be much more efficient and safer to do much of the work myself. I am just saying that that is not the case for many people, myself included.

 

[wabower]

If you don't care about time, it doesn't matter. If you ever fly home on Friday the 28 and need to leave for a week-long trip on Monday the 1st you'll understand.

You are probably right, but I am not sure I would even know that a bundle of wires needed to be moved a 1/2". I trust my mechanic to have that knowledge, as this is what he does every day and I do not. He is also much more likely than I am to spot a problem, because he knows what he is looking for. I could easily overlook a an exhaust stain or something significant, thinking it was normal, where it might be an indication of an exhaust leak (just one example of something I have overlooked in the past). I guess I am fortunate that I trust the shop I use and don't feel they are using me strictly to increase their profit margins. I discuss everything they find with them and usually view the problem with my own eyes. I have never felt they were trying to pull one over on me. I am sure, if I were as experienced with aircraft maintenance as I am with computers, it would be much more efficient and safer to do much of the work myself. I am just saying that that is not the case for many people, myself included.