Annual completed. Do you agree?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So got the Annual completed.

The bad:
Plugs: wasted
Brakes: wasted (rotors and pads)
Tires: Wasted

The Good:
"Plane is in outstanding shape." (FYI we are coming up on 8k hours)
"Structure is perfect, no rust, no corrosion, Structure-wise it looks showroom new"
Compression great
Cylinders look great

A&P says:
1. Jesus you fly this thing a lot. (200 hours in 1 year. We were both doing training in it though.) This year we will be lucky to hit 80 hours.

2. Only (and always) full rich when climbing. Lean for taxi, lean at cruise. When re-entering the pattern, don't go full rich you can shock cool the engine, and it is not necessary. Students are taught to go full rich entering the pattern for safety reasons meaning they are likely doing TnG and it is 1 less thing to worry about.

Also if you are at 3500 and need to climb to 4500, go full throttle and full rich. Do that for any climb. Climb always full rich and full throttle.

Leaning: He states "You cannot over lean this engine. It will die long before doing damage" Lycoming 320 by the way.

3. NEVER USE THE BRAKES. Full up elevator and turn off at the last taxiway if possible. The brakes were REALLY bad.


He harped a lot on leaning and brake preservation.

I have not been leaning for taxi
and I generally go full rich as soon as I am about 8-10 miles out from my destination. I have a bad habit of trying to make the first turn off so I guess that is killing the brakes.
 
You're not going to shock cool any engine by going full rich at any time. There may be good reasons for not going full rich but shock cooling ain't one of 'em.
 
Lycoming recommends leaning any time you're at 5000 msl and above. That will improve life of the plugs.

And slower approach will result in slower speed on the runway. Fly the numbers!
 
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Your mechanic makes some good points. I lean the engine very aggressively on the ground and I also keep it lean in the pattern and on final. Never use the brakes? That's a bit of a stretch but definitely use them as little as possible. With proper taxi technique you can get by with very little braking.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So got the Annual completed.

The bad:
Plugs: wasted
Brakes: wasted (rotors and pads)
Tires: Wasted
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You fly a lot. That eats those up eventually. C'est l'avion.

The Good:
"Plane is in outstanding shape." (FYI we are coming up on 8k hours)
"Structure is perfect, no rust, no corrosion, Structure-wise it looks showroom new"
Compression great
Cylinders look great
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Good news.

2. Only (and always) full rich when climbing. Lean for taxi, lean at cruise. When re-entering the pattern, don't go full rich you can shock cool the engine, and it is not necessary. Students are taught to go full rich entering the pattern for safety reasons meaning they are likely doing TnG and it is 1 less thing to worry about.
Also if you are at 3500 and need to climb to 4500, go full throttle and full rich. Do that for any climb. Climb always full rich and full throttle.
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Pretty good advice except for that "always" part -- you want to lean for full-throttle climbs above 5000 DA, and this time of year, that happens a lot lower than 5000 MSL where you live.

Leaning: He states "You cannot over lean this engine. It will die long before doing damage" Lycoming 320 by the way.
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Pretty much true. Worst thing you can do is not lean enough, since peak CHT occurs about 100F rich of peak EGT, and high CHT's are what really kill engines.

3. NEVER USE THE BRAKES. Full up elevator and turn off at the last taxiway if possible. The brakes were REALLY bad.
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I wouldn't say "never" (sometimes you really do need to use them, like on short fields), but maximizing aerodynamic braking and minimizing brake braking will make the last a lot longer.

I have not been leaning for taxi
and I generally go full rich as soon as I am about 8-10 miles out from my destination.
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Lose those habits.

Lean by ear for cruise (lean to first sign of roughness, then enrich just enough to get smooth again) and then leave the mixture alone until you either clear the runway (when you lean further for ground ops) or go around (in which case you push the mixture in along with carb heat as you advance the throttle).

On the ground, as soon as you start, set the throttle to about 1200 RPM, then lean until the RPM peaks and leave the mixture there for all ground ops (other than run-up). Don't go full rich until you take the runway for takeoff. Note just how far out that is on the mixture control shaft so you know where to set it for ground ops after landing.

I have a bad habit of trying to make the first turn off so I guess that is killing the brakes.
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Maybe so, but sometimes you don't have a choice on that. However, following your A&P's suggestions on that will cut your brake parts bill.
 
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Aggressively lean for taxi, you can't damage anything. By leaning just before the engine quits, you avoid taking off partially leaned. If you forget to enrich, the engine will die before you even start down the runway. If you just 'lean a little bit', you could end up taking off with the engine partially leaned which would be bad.

In climb, dont start leaning until you reach 5000, without an engine monitor you won't know exactly how much, but you basically lean for a better climb rate.

There is no restriction on when you can lean in cruise. After you reach cruise, be it at 3000 or 5000, let the CHT come down a bit and lean until rough and then back it up a bit. In absence of a engine monitor this seems to work well for the small lycomings.

There is no need to go full rich that far out from the airport. Go full rich at the point when you want to have full power instantly available for a go around (if you fly into a high DA airport, you dont want to go full rich ever or you may find yourself with the engine dying on rollout).

I wouldn't say 'never use the brakes', but if you have enough runway to slow down with aerodynamic braking, why use them ?
 
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We don't have CHT or EGT. We lean based on RPM
 
Most brake wear is caused by idling too fast during taxi, and controlling speed with the brakes. It happens unconsciously for many pilots.

Dan
 
Some items have a 100 hour inspection - make sure you find out what those are. The 100hr may not be legally required for Part 91 - but safety for some of them might suggest the inspection happen.

plugs, brakes, tires all wear items - fly alot - wear faster.

OWT on the motor . . . lean at a density altitude of 5000' . .. lean before that if its not running well.

A climb from 3500' - 4500' - why aren't you are WOT anyway? You worried about going too fast?
 
comanchepilot said:
Some items have a 100 hour inspection - make sure you find out what those are. The 100hr may not be legally required for Part 91 - but safety for some of them might suggest the inspection happen.

plugs, brakes, tires all wear items - fly alot - wear faster.

OWT on the motor . . . lean at a density altitude of 5000' . .. lean before that if its not running well.

A climb from 3500' - 4500' - why aren't you are WOT anyway? You worried about going too fast?
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concerned about redline...
Should I be?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
concerned about redline...
Should I be?
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thats the ONLY concern . . . .

you control that with mixture! and keep your speed up!

You will learn there is a mixture and power setting that generates the fastest speed - and one that gets you within 3-4 knots of that speed and saves a ton of fuel!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We don't have CHT or EGT. We lean based on RPM
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Forget RPM -- lean by ear in cruise. I've done a lot of leaning of engines like yours with full engine analyzers, and leaning by ear as I described above produces the exact same result as following the "lean find" procedure with the analyzer. Better to keep your eyes outside and listen to the engine while you lean so the first detection of an impending collision is by eye, not by ear.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
concerned about redline...
Should I be?
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No. There isn't any legal fixed pitch prop installation which is going to redline at climb speed. Just make sure when you're transitioning from cruise to climb that you are raising the nose to climb attitude while you advance the throttle so you slow to climb speed as power comes up, and you'll be fine.
 
Who climbs to 5,000'? Some days I fly 1,000' off the deck for hours and never go higher. Lean all the time except for take off. ;)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
2. Only (and always) full rich when climbing.

I do full rich climbing up to 5000msl, after that, I lean for and maintain ~1350 on the hottest jug for the balance of the climb. Works for me. (IO-360)
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I agree with almost all his statements except
when re-entering the pattern, don't go full rich you can shock cool the engine, and it is not necessary
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I agree it's not necessary but it's not going to "shock cool" or otherwise harm the engine. You can stick the mixture control anywhere you want from so lean it's misfiring to full rich at the approach power settings and it won't have much of an impact. The problem occurs when you push the knobs forward on the go.

Note however, that doesn't mean you should not enrichen the mixture on most engines when coming down in a descent.

Recent analyses confirm that what kills cylinders is HEAT not cooling.
 
Ron Levy said:
You have to be a bit careful about leaning during full-throttle climb below 5000 DA if you don't have all-cylinder CHT instrumentation.
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I try to keep my CHT under 380F, and it doesn't take much leaning during a low altitude climb to bump against that limit.
 
Re: leaning during climb.

I apply the philosophy of determining your plane's full power EGT at sea level on a standard day (if you have an engine monitor like I do then pick a cylinder, I use #1).

Then lean to that EGT before take-off and slowly dial out the mixture as you climb to maintain that EGT.

That comes from either Mike Busch or the Ada boys, I don't recall which.
 
I don't want to derail this, but how do you determine whether the engine is running "rough." There's obvious roughness, and there's the subtle sensation that the engine isn't quite as smooth as it was before reducing richness. The first is something you hear, and the second is something you feel (feel implies something obvious - I mean something really subtle.)

I've been leaning to POH numbers using a totalizer since I don't know the answer to this question.
 
I typically do stop and gos. So, I stand on the brakes to maximize the runway ahead for the go. That's what brakes are for. Pads are a wear item that need to be replaced on occasion.

Were the rotors toast because you wore past the rivets?
 
Derek Zeanah said:
I don't want to derail this, but how do you determine whether the engine is running "rough." There's obvious roughness, and there's the subtle sensation that the engine isn't quite as smooth as it was before reducing richness. The first is something you hear, and the second is something you feel (feel implies something obvious - I mean something really subtle.)

I've been leaning to POH numbers using a totalizer since I don't know the answer to this question.
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The lean by feel and sound method is, of course, fairly subjective. Lean the mixture slowly until in feels/sounds rough and then enrich the mixture until it smoothes out. Not very scientific, but it works just fine for 320s and the like. If you have a EDM700 (or similar) installed then use that information as well.
 
Criminy, you had an annual where the only squawks were wear items. I dream of such things. They're wear items because they're supposed to wear out, that's why they're not built into the airplane. Go fly and give your bird some exercise. I don't care what the mechanic says, that's the best thing you can do for it.
 
I had a whole bunch of comments but it's easier to just do what Ron said... all of it.
That's exactly how I ended up running the 360 in my Maule and all was good for 1,700 hours.

Brakes are totally up to you. I have 450 hours on my RV10's brakes and they are still well clear of service limits. Little training involved and about 40% of my landings are at home on an uphill grass strip but I do steer with them. Normal landing speeds, slow touch downs, full rudder deflections for ground turns, and minimal ground RPMs (>1,000) do the trick. I fly it like a tailwheel Maule.

Otherwise, I generally let it roll out until slow enough to turn off... except perhaps for the Delta turnoff on Rwy 23 @KCLT just because.

Clt_airport_diagram%5B1%5D.jpg

Thanks for indulging me.
 
timwinters said:
Re: leaning during climb.

I apply the philosophy of determining your plane's full power EGT at sea level on a standard day (if you have an engine monitor like I do then pick a cylinder, I use #1).

Then lean to that EGT before take-off and slowly dial out the mixture as you climb to maintain that EGT.

That comes from either Mike Busch or the Ada boys, I don't recall which.
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That procedure sounds like it requires a full power run up each flight(?).

I lean (conservatively) during the climb by climbing to 1,000' then hitting the lean button on my engine monitor (GRT exp). Once all my cylinders' EGTs drop 10 degrees, I lean to keep them there.
 
Bill Watson said:
That procedure sounds like it requires a full power run up each flight(?).

I lean (conservatively) during the climb by climbing to 1,000' then hitting the lean button on my engine monitor (GRT exp). Once all my cylinders' EGTs drop 10 degrees, I lean to keep them there.
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Yeah, most of the time, otherwise (like if it's really hot) I'll start leaning on the take-off roll. I don't have to look to get it close...then I fine tune it as I climb.

kgruber said:
Neither one. That came from Avsig 20 years ago from some 185 guy who was doing it in 1969.
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I guess that could be accurate too, but I didn't hear it from him or AvSig. I heard it from either Mike Busch or the Ada boys.
 
Bill Jennings said:
SixPapaCharlie said:
2. Only (and always) full rich when climbing.

I do full rich climbing up to 5000msl, after that, I lean for and maintain ~1350 on the hottest jug for the balance of the climb. Works for me. (IO-360)
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Better if you start at 5000 DA rather than MSL -- air density is the real driver, not air pressure. In the winter, that might be above 5000 MSL, and lower in the summer.
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steingar said:
Criminy, you had an annual where the only squawks were wear items. I dream of such things. They're wear items because they're supposed to wear out, that's why they're not built into the airplane. Go fly and give your bird some exercise. I don't care what the mechanic says, that's the best thing you can do for it.
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I have been really nervous because the hours are so high that he was going to come back w/ a bunch of stuff.

Feeling fortunate that everything is in good shape.


And he did say the prop will be on its last legs soon. I fly out of a gravel pit so the prop gets a lot of sanding.
 
Ron Levy said:
Better if you start at 5000 DA rather than MSL -- air density is the real driver, not air pressure. In the winter, that might be above 5000 MSL, and lower in the summer.
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Ok, will try that!
 
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