Anatomy of a LAHSO

[TknoFlyer]

I recently went to Buffalo, NY (KBUF) for the first time.

Due to unavoidable delays in departing Leesburg, we arrived at KBUF after dark which made identifying the airport a bit more challenging (especially on my first time there), but I eventually found it and was cleared to land runway 32. See the attached airport diagram.

While en route to the field, the approach controller asked me keep my speed up for following traffic. No problem. I've been to large fields before and this is to be expected. What I didn't expect was the tower controller giving me instructions while I'm crossing the numbers on short final ("no delay to the intersection"). Needless to say, I had kept the speed up, landed fast, and was now asked again to stay fast. As I'm rolling out on 32, however, the tower asks if I can hold short (of runway 23).

I should have said "unable". I didn't. I tried to comply. The Southwest jet on final was asked to go around while I was encouraged to move across the intersection.




All's well that ends well, I guess, but there are some lessons to be learned here including:

1. Alert controllers early if you're unfamiliar with the airport. I usually inform the ground controller of this, but I'm wondering if telling the tower on initial contact may have averted this situation.
2. Decline LAHSO (land and hold short) if you're unfamiliar with the airport - and certainly if this first landing happens to be at night.

I'm sure there are lessons for controllers in this, too. For instance:

1. Don't bother landing traffic on short final when pilot workload is high.
2. Don't ask traffic to keep up their speed then turn around and ask them to hold short.

High-def version available here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAtO2zmuNc

 

[MikePapa]

What you describe doesn't sound like a LAHSO. Although I have never been asked for a LAHSO, my understanding is LAHSO runway distances have to be published in the A/FD and the controller has to make the request well before you ever land.

 

[roncachamp]

I recently went to Buffalo, NY (KBUF) for the first time.

Due to unavoidable delays in departing Leesburg, we arrived at KBUF after dark which made identifying the airport a bit more challenging (especially on my first time there), but I eventually found it and was cleared to land runway 32. See the attached airport diagram.

While en route to the field, the approach controller asked me keep my speed up for following traffic. No problem. I've been to large fields before and this is to be expected. What I didn't expect was the tower controller giving me instructions while I'm crossing the numbers on short final ("no delay to the intersection"). Needless to say, I had kept the speed up, landed fast, and was now asked again to stay fast. As I'm rolling out on 32, however, the tower asks if I can hold short (of runway 23).

I should have said "unable". I didn't. I tried to comply. The Southwest jet on final was asked to go around while I was encouraged to move across the intersection.




All's well that ends well, I guess, but there are some lessons to be learned here including:

1. Alert controllers early if you're unfamiliar with the airport. I usually inform the ground controller of this, but I'm wondering if telling the tower on initial contact may have averted this situation.
2. Decline LAHSO (land and hold short) if you're unfamiliar with the airport - and certainly if this first landing happens to be at night.

I'm sure there are lessons for controllers in this, too. For instance:

1. Don't bother landing traffic on short final when pilot workload is high.
2. Don't ask traffic to keep up their speed then turn around and ask them to hold short.

If you were asked to hold short of runway 23 after you had landed this isn't anatomy of a LAHSO.

 

[TknoFlyer]

What you describe doesn't sound like a LAHSO. Although I have never been asked for a LAHSO, my understanding is LAHSO runway distances have to be published in the A/FD and the controller has to make the request well before you ever land.

If you were asked to hold short of runway 23 after you had landed this isn't anatomy of a LAHSO.

Fair 'nuff. It may not meet the technical definition of a "LAHSO", but the controller obviously wanted me to perform essentially that. The real point of this post is for others to avoid a similar scenario by perhaps replying to a similar request with "unable" (as I should have).

 

[MikePapa]

[/list]
If you were asked to hold short of runway 23 after you had landed this isn't anatomy of a LAHSO.

From looking at the video it appears as if the controller was just wishful thinking that he would either turn off prior to the intersection or roll through it before the other landing traffic was committed. So perhaps it was just one of those great sequence plans that just didn't pan out.

Also I didn't hear a traffic call for the traffic landing on 23, although I might have just missed it.

 

[Doggtyred]

I thought they weren't giving LAHSO's to non 121 types anymore? or something to that effect..

 

[MikePapa]

Fair 'nuff. It may not meet the technical definition of a "LAHSO", but the controller obviously wanted me to perform essentially that. The real point of this post is for others to avoid a similar scenario by perhaps replying to a similar request with "unable" (as I should have).

It didn't really look to me like you did anything wrong. You certainly made the attempt to stop in time as asked, but nobody can really fault you for not doing so. If anything the controller was at fault, but even at that not all their plans can work out all the time. Sometimes people just have to go around, and that's the cost of doing business.

 

[roncachamp]

I thought they weren't giving LAHSO's to non 121 types anymore? or something to that effect..

At most locations it's limited to non-121 types.

 

[TMetzinger]

And it's part of the landing clearance, not an afterthought. John, you did your best, and that was all they could ask - you didn't commit to anything.

 

[steingar]

Controllers don't fly our airplanes, we do. I was once asked to expedite my climb, my response was I was flying a Cherokee, and my climb was as expedited as it was likely to get. I've been asked numerous times to speed up on final and my answer is invariably "unable". The ATC guys are there for us, not the other way around.

 

[roncachamp]

Controllers don't fly our airplanes, we do. I was once asked to expedite my climb, my response was I was flying a Cherokee, and my climb was as expedited as it was likely to get. I've been asked numerous times to speed up on final and my answer is invariably "unable". The ATC guys are there for us, not the other way around.

All true, but when ATC asks it's invariably to accommodate another of you.

 

[ScottM]

Controllers don't fly our airplanes, we do. I was once asked to expedite my climb, my response was I was flying a Cherokee, and my climb was as expedited as it was likely to get. I've been asked numerous times to speed up on final and my answer is invariably "unable". The ATC guys are there for us, not the other way around.

I have been asked that with the assumption that I was not already doing my best. When that happens I respond with 'already at best climb'.

I have also been asked to keep the speed up on landing. But when I get within 100 feet of touchdown I now need to slow down to safely land. So that best speed stuff is done with and I start slowing down.

I think what you see here is the best laid plans of mice and men. The OP did his best, I do not see a LAHSO violation nor do I actually see a LAHSO landing limitation. At one point, close to touch down, I get the feeling that ATC whated you to proceed as quickly as you could through the intersection. The instruction was, in my mind, ambiguous.

 

[AdamZ]

John regardless of whether is was LAHSO or not it was a great lesson. Thanks for posting it. Have you considered filing a NASA report. The instructions were conflicting and the report may help prevent that in the future.

Also it looked like you came to a full stop before the intersection. Did you? If so it why would they then ask you to expidite crossing the intersecting runway?

 

[TknoFlyer]

Re: Anatomy of a (pseudo) LAHSO

John regardless of whether is was LAHSO or not it was a great lesson.

Thanks.

Have you considered filing a NASA report?

Done.

Also it looked like you came to a full stop before the intersection. Did you? If so it why would they then ask you to expidite crossing the intersecting runway?

It's hard to see from the video, but I think by the time I stopped I was in the intersection. Replay and look for the "5-23" runway sign on the left.

 

[AWACSEng]

Nothing beats Tower telling you to contact Ground while you are still in the flare. Had that happen today. As far as the LAHSO, we can't do 'em here at a USAF field, but from the looks of things here, you did the best you could but tower just had two pieces of traffic too close. It happens. Good job trying to make everyone's live easier. Sometime it just doesn't work out.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I have also been asked to keep the speed up on landing. But when I get within 100 feet of touchdown I now need to slow down to safely land. So that best speed stuff is done with and I start slowing down.

I was flying a SA227 into JFK once and the controller asked me if I could pick my speed up to 250. I said no problem. He then asked how long could I hold 250 and I replied:

"Until Impact".

He laughed and thanked me for my help.

 

[gismo]

At most locations it's limited to non-121 types.

I was under the impression that by request of ALPA, GA planes will not be asked to LAHS for a part 121 flight. Do you mean that only non-121's will be given LAHS or that no LAHSO will be used when the opposing traffic (the one being held short for) is part 121?

 

[gismo]

I'm on dialup tonight so viewing the vid isn't gonna happen but I'm wondering if the controller just asked John if he could stop before the crossing runway. IMO that's not LAHSO, just a poorly timed query.

And WRT the distracting calls from tower on short final or during touchdown, that's a fairly common occurance IME. Probably more likely when the controller isn't a pilot but either way, they're a fact of life at towered fields. What a pilot needs to do is learn to just ignore such transmissions unless it's a call to go-around. It's perfectly acceptable to delay a response to any other call until you feel comfortable doing so.

 

[GMascelli]

Looking at the satellite picture there is no hold short line landing on 32 at runway 23. I always check the satellite pics and have the kneeboard print out clipped in place. Especially comes in handy for the taxi.....when new to the airport. I circle the taxiways or mark them up in pen just in case I need to reference. The flight guide lists specific buildings/business so they are easy to find, unlike the airport diagram that leaves alot to be desired.

Great learning experience for all of us, thanks for posting.

 

[roncachamp]

I was under the impression that by request of ALPA, GA planes will not be asked to LAHS for a part 121 flight. Do you mean that only non-121's will be given LAHS or that no LAHSO will be used when the opposing traffic (the one being held short for) is part 121?

At most locations, LAHSO cannot be conducted if an air carrier is involved. The air carrier cannot be instructed to hold short and conflicting traffic cannot be instructed to hold short of the air carrier.

 

[gismo]

At most locations, LAHSO cannot be conducted if an air carrier is involved. The air carrier cannot be instructed to hold short and conflicting traffic cannot be instructed to hold short of the air carrier.

Got it, thanks.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I was flying a SA227 into JFK once and the controller asked me if I could pick my speed up to 250. I said no problem. He then asked how long could I hold 250 and I replied:

"Until Impact".

He laughed and thanked me for my help.

That there's funny!

To the OP: thanks for posting that video, very educational.

It's a reminder to me to maintain situational awareness. Knowing in advance from the ATIS that both 32 and 23 are in use for landings and departures, I'd want to turn up my ears to listen for conflicts. As you are turning final, you can see the landing light of the SW airlines flight that also checked in with tower and was cleared to land 23 (CONFLICT!). Knowing I'd been asked to keep my speed up, I'd try to ask tower for their intentions.

I agree with you on the "unable"; you thought you'd stopped short, but were in the middle of the intersection if I am interpreting your video (the 5/23 sign going by on the left) and your comments. "I'm stopping here" means you thought you were stopped before the intersection, when you weren't... It's a good thing the SW pilot could see your beacon and light and knew you weren't clear, and called that out to the tower. I wonder if the tower would have noticed it if SWA hadn't called it out? In your high wing Cessna, it would have been hard to see the SW traffic descending on your right, once you were stopped in the runway intersection.

Good lessons in all of this, thank you for posting it! All's well that ends well.