An Idea Concerning Flying Clubs

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

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Ted Striker
I've looked into joining a flying club in the local area using AOPA's resources without much luck. (great site, but not associated in any way)

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Flying-Clubs.aspx

One thing I noticed was that they all seem to be the same to each other, relatively speaking - a few 172's/182's whose wet/dry rates weren't that much better than a flight school's prices.

Why does no one want to go cheaper? I'm thinking to reach out to more pilots with airplanes that are a lot more enjoyable to fly? I'm thinking in terms of Cubs, Champs, Pacers, Citabrias, etc. Maybe a nice IFR 150/152 if they feel so inclined. Maybe run the club out of a small field to keep prices down? Maybe have a local A&P who will work in exchange for flight time?

Am I the only one thinking of this? I know I can't be. Now, I haven't owned my own airplane nor am I a part of a club, so I could me missing something obvious. But does anyone else agree?

Feel free to brainstorm with me.
 
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What most pilots don't understand about clubs or renting versus price is the cost of maintenance. The cost of engine, prop, avionics over hauls needs to be calculated in to the hourly rate.
 
I looked at this for a flying club I was a member of. Insurance is a long pole in the tent. "Club" insurance is very expensive (~3x) compared with the cost of a co-ownership among 3-4 pilots.
 
DJTorrente said:
I looked at this for a flying club I was a member of. Insurance is a long pole in the tent. "Club" insurance is very expensive (~3x) compared with the cost of a co-ownership among 3-4 pilots.
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You may not even get anyone to quote taildraggers in a club situation. Anyone tried?
 
Geico266 said:
What most pilots don't understand about clubs or renting versus price is the cost of maintenance. The cost of engine, prop, avionics over hauls needs to be calculated in to the hourly rate.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding... we have a winner.

A club usually gets a nicer plane than a normal rental for a similar cost.
 
You can use non-owned/renters insurance as a way around club insurance until you have enough paying members. Probably under $500/year for $25,000 coverage. Maybe insurance companies will work with you after you have been up and running for a couple years without incidents?
 
Mike5250 said:
You can use non-owned/renters insurance as a way around club insurance until you have enough paying members. Probably under $500/year for $25,000 coverage. Maybe insurance companies will work with you after you have been up and running for a couple years without incidents?
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We thought about that, but thought we saw a gap in coverage going that way. If club would buy "not-in-motion" coverage, while the pilots insured as "non-owned/rented"; and there was a mechanical problem in flight, not the pilot's fault or covered by the non-owned policy, we thought the club would be be uncovered. Add the matter of getting two insurers involved, each pointing finger at the other. My former club rejected that solution.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I've looked into joining a flying club in the local area using AOPA's resources without much luck. (great site, but not associated in any way)

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Flying-Clubs.aspx

One thing I noticed was that they all seem to be the same to each other, relatively speaking - a few 172's/182's whose wet/dry rates weren't that much better than a flight school's prices.

Why does no one want to go cheaper? I'm thinking to reach out to more pilots with airplanes that are a lot more enjoyable to fly? I'm thinking in terms of Cubs, Champs, Pacers, Citabrias, etc. Maybe a nice IFR 150/152 if they feel so inclined. Maybe run the club out of a small field to keep prices down? Maybe have a local A&P who will work in exchange for flight time?

Am I the only one thinking of this? I know I can't be. Now, I haven't owned my own airplane nor am I a part of a club, so I could me missing something obvious. But does anyone else agree?

Feel free to brainstorm with me.
Click to expand...

Kinda tells you about the margins FBOs run on rentals. They often work lease-back arrangements to minimize their upfront capital and expenses.

A club has to recover it's costs one way or another.

Club locations are typically based on tradition and location of the members. It's not easy to get everyone to agree to relocate a flying club.

Planes are usually based on member's preferences for something that they can carry passengers in and are reasonable to insure.
 
I'm on the board of our club (2X172, 2X182, 2X210). I was surprised to see just what all the costs are when you really get down into the weeds. A few things to consider though, as you look at club vs. FBO rates:

-Clubs generally are TACH and not HOBS, a big benefit when you are staying in the pattern

-Clubs usually have 0 or very little deferred maintenance. I'm not saying that FBO's push things out to an unsafe level, but a DG is more likely to get fixed right away for a drift issue when it frequently flies IFR, v.s. a rental that is 99% training and VFR.

-Clubs usually have less competition for flight hours. We have 65 members, less than that are active, and I've only come up short for a plane two times that I can think of over the last two years, and each one was a "Hey, I wanna fly now" moment.

-FBO's DO offer the lowest cost type planes. Like you, I've not seen a true club with anything lower in performance than a C172 that wasn't a taildragger. inflightpilottraining.com at my field has two VERY nice C152's. Not the typical bucket-o-fail that you might find at some FBO's.

Either way, we are all trying to find the lowest cost per hour flying option that meets our mission and taste. I don't think you are out there in thinking flying is expensive. We get a nice bulk rate on fuel at our field, but our prices just shot up too.

The best way to keep a club's costs down: Keep the planes flying as much as possible. Usage drives the fixed costs down, and an active club is a healthy club.

Let me know if you have any other questions, or if we want to keep the chat going!
 
I wish there was something like this near me, in ATL, http://eaglesport.org/ They have Pitts S2, Cub, Pawnee tow plane and several gliders.

I would love to have access to a tail dragger, aerobatic, glider or other 'fun' airplane w/o all the associated direct ownership costs. It seems most clubs are like what the OP was finding, 172's, 182's, Bo's, etc for travel or to act as one's 'primary aircraft'.

Has anyone else seen a club business model like this one? Do you think this model is repeatable and viable?


Dan
 
Why does no one want to go cheaper?
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Everybody wants to go cheaper.

But there are reasons that this is hard to do. For example, an LSA will be cheaper to fly but it will cost a lot more than a mid-70s 172 or Cherokee. An old ragwing tail dragger might be cheaper to fly and maintain but impossible to insure. Also, the instruments (AI, DG, etc.), the maintenance parts (vacuum pump, alternator, starter, ...), and Lyc/Conti engine rebuild costs don't vary all that much from airframe to airframe. Tires - same, annual inspections - same, hangar expense - same ... you get the picture.

There are also reasons why a club might not wish to do it. Once beyond primary training, a 150 is probably not of much interest to most pilots. Same-o, a non-IFR airplane is not of much interest to most instrument pilots. Many clubs have things like 210s, Cherokee Sixs, 182s, etc. because that is what the members want for cross-country trips. It all depends on the club's "personality".

Bottom line, a club's fleet reflects the flying needs and desires of the existing members and, because of the fleet, it tends to attract new members with similar flying needs and wants. The club that ChemGuy mentions is an obvious, but rare, example of a group that wants something a little different. Maybe you can find someone like that in your area.
 
ChemGuy said:
I wish there was something like this near me, in ATL, http://eaglesport.org/ They have Pitts S2, Cub, Pawnee tow plane and several gliders.

I would love to have access to a tail dragger, aerobatic, glider or other 'fun' airplane w/o all the associated direct ownership costs. It seems most clubs are like what the OP was finding, 172's, 182's, Bo's, etc for travel or to act as one's 'primary aircraft'.

Has anyone else seen a club business model like this one? Do you think this model is repeatable and viable?


Dan
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Where in Atlanta are you? We've got 3 172s and a citabria on the south side of Atlanta. Flying off grass too. Commercial soaring operation 10 minutes away if you need training or own and want a tow. Southern eagles soaring also just moved from Lagrange to warm springs. There is a ton of flying on the south side of town!

PM if you're interested and I'll give you the details.
 
Well, I've this great idea that lots of people would just love to fly if it were free.

I don't think I'll find any takers that don't require uniforms and a rather significant commitment (and age restrictions I can't meet), though.
 
ChemGuy said:
I wish there was something like this near me, in ATL, http://eaglesport.org/ They have Pitts S2, Cub, Pawnee tow plane and several gliders.

I would love to have access to a tail dragger, aerobatic, glider or other 'fun' airplane w/o all the associated direct ownership costs. It seems most clubs are like what the OP was finding, 172's, 182's, Bo's, etc for travel or to act as one's 'primary aircraft'.

Has anyone else seen a club business model like this one? Do you think this model is repeatable and viable?


Dan
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You know what's funny? I forgot. I was actually a part of that exact club when I was in Daytona. I spent a lot of time with those guys, bought into the club, but never actually flew. That's why I forgot I was a part of one. I just didn't have the money at that time. I sure wish I did. It's the highest time Pitts in the world. It used to a fantastic thing, but it's nothing like it used to be. I'm in ATL now and was looking for something in the area. AOPA left me wishing there was more out there.

I'm going to have to fly their planes next time I make it to FL.
Pappy said:
Where in Atlanta are you? We've got 3 172s and a citabria on the south side of Atlanta. Flying off grass too. Commercial soaring operation 10 minutes away if you need training or own and want a tow. Southern eagles soaring also just moved from Lagrange to warm springs. There is a ton of flying on the south side of town!

PM if you're interested and I'll give you the details.
Click to expand...
PM coming your way.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
You know what's funny? I forgot. I was actually a part of that exact club when I was in Daytona. I spent a lot of time with those guys, bought into the club, but never actually flew. That's why I forgot I was a part of one. I just didn't have the money at that time. I sure wish I did. It's the highest time Pitts in the world. It used to a fantastic thing, but it's nothing like it used to be. I'm in ATL now and was looking for something in the area. AOPA left me wishing there was more out there.

I'm going to have to fly their planes next time I make it to FL.
PM coming your way.
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Your welcome Kirk.....:D:D Where in ATL are you??? Wanna go start a 'Fun club' with a Super Decathlon... or Pitts... or???

Citabria huh..... Pappy, PM coming...

Dan
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I've looked into joining a flying club in the local area using AOPA's resources without much luck. (great site, but not associated in any way)

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Flying-Clubs.aspx

One thing I noticed was that they all seem to be the same to each other, relatively speaking - a few 172's/182's whose wet/dry rates weren't that much better than a flight school's prices.

Why does no one want to go cheaper? I'm thinking to reach out to more pilots with airplanes that are a lot more enjoyable to fly? I'm thinking in terms of Cubs, Champs, Pacers, Citabrias, etc. Maybe a nice IFR 150/152 if they feel so inclined. Maybe run the club out of a small field to keep prices down? Maybe have a local A&P who will work in exchange for flight time?

Am I the only one thinking of this? I know I can't be. Now, I haven't owned my own airplane nor am I a part of a club, so I could me missing something obvious. But does anyone else agree?

Feel free to brainstorm with me.
Click to expand...

Flying clubs don't offer J3 cubs and $100/hr Senecas for the same reason there aren't any bright orange polar bears. Evolution and economics have some similarities.
 
Captain said:
Flying clubs don't offer J3 cubs and $100/hr Senecas for the same reason there aren't any bright orange polar bears. Evolution and economics have some similarities.
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Agree with the $100/hr Seneca, but you can find tail draggers including Cubs in flying clubs. They are not as elusive as some folks seem to make them out to be here.
 
Captain said:
Flying clubs don't offer J3 cubs and $100/hr Senecas for the same reason there aren't any bright orange polar bears. Evolution and economics have some similarities.
Click to expand...

Yes, $100/hr Seneca's is exactly what was on my mind.

I think there should be more $200/hr business jets, too.
 
Mike5250 said:
You can use non-owned/renters insurance as a way around club insurance until you have enough paying members. Probably under $500/year for $25,000 coverage. Maybe insurance companies will work with you after you have been up and running for a couple years without incidents?
Click to expand...

So a club member properly secures the club plane at the home field and it is stolen, a tornado comes through, the plane is vandalized, ect, then what?
 
Clip4 said:
So a club member properly secures the club plane at the home field and it is stolen, a tornado comes through, the plane is vandalized, ect, then what?
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The club could get "not-in-motion" coverage for that risk; there the club doesn't get penalized on the premium as much just for being a club per se; the added club risk comes from the number and type of users of the aircraft.

Where we saw the gap in coverage was a hypothetical incident that had nothing to do with pilot error. Non-owned policies insure the pilot for damages they may do to others, including to the club's plane. The club itself would be naked while the plane was in-motion for its own risks not attributable to the pilot.
 
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