American Airlines Mechanics Sue Airline

Sorry Ben but you're the one using big capital letters and words like "hate" so I really don't think I'm the one with kool-aid drinking issues here. How about you explain to us just exactly how American Airline mechanics or Longshoremen in Long Beach have screwed up your life today? :dunno:
 
Sorry Ben but you're the one using big capital letters and words like "hate" so I really don't think I'm the one with kool-aid drinking issues here. How about you explain to us just exactly how American Airline mechanics or Longshoremen in Long Beach have screwed up your life today? :dunno:


Hmmm..

Let's see....

So, there is a small operator / machinist waiting for raw material from the far east to meet a deadline for an important order... That material is in a container, stuck on and thati is ship anchored offshore waiting to unload and that material was supposed to be delivered last week....

So, this poor. small operator /machinist has had to call all the customers and eat crow, and has had ordered cancelled because some union workers have decided to slow down and screw up the supply chain when they didn't get their way ......

You seem to be pretty smart.......

Do you see where I am going with this....:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:......:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:..

PS.. I HATE unions..........:yes::(
 
Care to explain the work slowdown by the union LongShoreMen in Long Beach California then ?

Because they are working at 'a safe speed', the speed requested (and NOT contracted for) is argued to be unsafe. Management bet that they could replace manpower with automation and get the required result, they lost the bet, and are trying to get fewer people than before to handle an increasing cargo load. Automation only goes so far and so fast. Automation still can't keep up with a skilled operator.
 
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Because they are working at 'a safe speed', the speed requested (and NOT contracted for) is argued to be unsafe.

They ALL need to be fired and replaced with workers who will get the job done safe and efficient....

Can you say PATCO..... and unemployment??????:dunno::lol:
 
With regards to the actual issue at hand, I am trying to 'read between the lines' to determine the validity of the IAM/TWU allegations.

Notice the story says "The suit says that the FAA is currently investigating 21 complaints made by mechanics, who have said the company has pressured them to disregard federal directives on aircraft maintenance."

Wow. That sounds bad. But in fact, whenever such a complaint is made, the FAA is required to investigate it. That doesn't mean the complaint has any merit. It's really easy for the union management council to make allegations and then claim the airline is under investigation.

But wait a minute. "American spokesman Casey Norton said American is constantly working with the FAA on its maintenance program and procedures and the agency has not alerted the carrier to any current issues."

If the union claims were accurate, then surely the FAA would have quickly determined if the allegations had merit and then would have notified American, right?

The FAA doesn't mess around with cutting corners on maintenance, do they? If an airline had engaged in behavior that has “compromised public safety and mechanics have been threatened with termination when they have notified the Federal Aviation Administration about possible maintenance problems" as the lawsuit alleges, then wouldn't there be some sort of emergency hearing?

I think if “AA-employed [mechanics] have been subject to increasing pressure to engage in unlawful and even fraudulent maintenance practices in order to keep AA aircraft in revenue service" there would be a little more action than a lawsuit leisurely filed in an Illinois federal court.

Surely this lawsuit wouldn't have anything to do with the IAW/TWU trying to gain certification as the representative of the mechanics and forcing American into agreeing to a new contract...would it?

I'm just a little skeptical.
 
Doubt it. When you look at aircraft versus man hours for required and unplanned maintenance and the staffing numbers, the staffing side will be less. That coupled with the amount of out sourcing of various maintenance items adds in the equation. AA is not going to hire mechanics to sit around the breakroom.

One of the big gripes at AA is lack of personnel in the maintenance department, thus why AA is pushing to skirt around maintenance items. AA is not alone in this, lots os airlines are cutting back to up the bottom line. Every additional hour of unplanned maintenance per airframe impacts cost on many levels.

So there is no chance unplanned maintenance is not over stated by union workers? I'll take that bet. Unions usually could care less about the bottom line, they just want to line their own pockets.

Unions have a long history of creating "work" that adds extra cost to products and services. Hell, if unions are as good as you say, or think they are, why doesn't every shop have a union, and why is there an effort to break any union? :dunno:

I will lay odds that this claim is baseless and it is just a shot across the bow of management because they are ****ed about something else. Unions are snakes.
 
I can tell you when I worked for Express Jet DBA Continental Express, during contract negotiations, we were told not to go to the gates to fix aircraft between flights until the passengers were on board. They (lead mechanics) would send us over to an aircraft, deplane the passengers for maintenance, have us take our time completing the repairs and signing the log books. All this to show the company who was in control.

I worked a guy that got a job as a third shift supervisor at American Airlines in ORD. One night they had a 3 B777 that needed worked on for before the morning flights. He found the gate technicians sleeping with lights out at the brake room. He was about to wake them when a second supervisor told him not to wake them if he wanted any of the aircraft making an on time departure in the morning.

Unions at work. :dunno:

I was an expeditor for an aerospace company hand carrying a prototype casting for the F-16. I carried it in from the parking lot (after traveling all night) to the machine shop that was waiting for the casting to begin machining. I was written up by the union for not call a union goon to carry it from my car to the machine shop. At the "hearing" it was determined I had "experimental / prototype" parts that were not covered by the union contract. 2 years later the company opened up a non union shop in Nebraska in part to "remind" the union who was in charge. The more they complained the more work they moved out to Nebraska from IL. It is the only way to deal with union goons.
 
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With regards to the actual issue at hand, I am trying to 'read between the lines' to determine the validity of the IAM/TWU allegations.

Notice the story says "The suit says that the FAA is currently investigating 21 complaints made by mechanics, who have said the company has pressured them to disregard federal directives on aircraft maintenance."

Wow. That sounds bad. But in fact, whenever such a complaint is made, the FAA is required to investigate it. That doesn't mean the complaint has any merit. It's really easy for the union management council to make allegations and then claim the airline is under investigation.

But wait a minute. "American spokesman Casey Norton said American is constantly working with the FAA on its maintenance program and procedures and the agency has not alerted the carrier to any current issues."

If the union claims were accurate, then surely the FAA would have quickly determined if the allegations had merit and then would have notified American, right?

The FAA doesn't mess around with cutting corners on maintenance, do they? If an airline had engaged in behavior that has “compromised public safety and mechanics have been threatened with termination when they have notified the Federal Aviation Administration about possible maintenance problems" as the lawsuit alleges, then wouldn't there be some sort of emergency hearing?

I think if “AA-employed [mechanics] have been subject to increasing pressure to engage in unlawful and even fraudulent maintenance practices in order to keep AA aircraft in revenue service" there would be a little more action than a lawsuit leisurely filed in an Illinois federal court.

Surely this lawsuit wouldn't have anything to do with the IAW/TWU trying to gain certification as the representative of the mechanics and forcing American into agreeing to a new contract...would it?

I'm just a little skeptical.

Someone please remind me where the POTUS ( union lover) came from and lives ....:dunno:.......:eek::eek:.
 
So there is no chance unplanned maintenance is not over stated by union workers? I'll take that bet. Unions usually could care less about the bottom line, they just want to line their own pockets.

I didn't say that, you did. Unplanned maintenance is the bain of airline operations. An airplane sitting at the gate broke will delay the departure, plus have a ripple effect down stream affecting other routes. An airplane sitting at the gate isn't producing revenue, plus unplanned maintenance is another cost center. If the airline can push it off the gate with a MEL in place, or a "creative sign off" then they have saved money.

Unions have a long history of creating "work" that adds extra cost to products and services. Hell, if unions are as good as you say, or think they are, why doesn't every shop have a union, and why is there an effort to break any union? :dunno:

I made no mention of unions. Reread my post.

I will lay odds that this claim is baseless and it is just a shot across the bow of management because they are ****ed about something else. Unions are snakes.

Being in the industry, I see their point. And I don't believe it's baseless.
 
As I said earlier there is no plausible reason for anyone to make baseless claims like this. Furthermore it is mechanics that are making the allegations not the union. I think that most people blinded with hate for labor unions don't have a clue what they really are and how they work. They are just convinced that everything about them is evil.

Your typical airline has a heavily unionized workforce and a management that is completely non-union. So you'd suppose, I guess, that management would be comprised of only the best and the brightest, the sharpest tools in the shed. No idle wheels or gosh, certainly no complete idiots!

Well let me break the news to you, that ain't the case by a long shot. :rofl:
 
As I said earlier there is no plausible reason for anyone to make baseless claims like this. Furthermore it is mechanics that are making the allegations not the union. I think that most people blinded with hate for labor unions don't have a clue what they really are and how they work. They are just convinced that everything about them is evil.

Your typical airline has a heavily unionized workforce and a management that is completely non-union. So you'd suppose, I guess, that management would be comprised of only the best and the brightest, the sharpest tools in the shed. No idle wheels or gosh, certainly no complete idiots!

Well let me break the news to you, that ain't the case by a long shot. :rofl:

So...

Who filed suit in Illinois... The mechanics or the union ???:dunno:..

Also... When GM bellied up all the stock and bond holders lost EVERYTHING... The only people who benefitted from the guvmint bailout was the union pension fund.. They should have taken a hair cut too...

The U.S Postal service is in debt by 20 BILLION because of lavish union contracts... Guess who gets to bail out that mess........ Us taxpayers..:mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
...The U.S Postal service is in debt by 20 BILLION because of lavish union contracts...

You better read up on that Ben, it's pretty cut and dried as to what happened with the Postal Service and it was not the doings of the union.

That however is way off topic for this thread. The AA story is about allegations of coercion and intimidation, the union is the agent of the mechanics and without it you'd most likely never hear of any of this just as you don't hear about how it goes on in the non unionized repair stations.

Personally I see the results every day. I see airplanes six months after overhaul that clearly have not been overhauled. We are constantly doing work that was supposed to already have been done and wasn't or that was done inadequately or improperly. This has been going on for years.
 
They ALL need to be fired and replaced with workers who will get the job done safe and efficient....

Can you say PATCO..... and unemployment??????:dunno::lol:

Longshoremen aren't government employees, they have the mafia backing their union. You can only be as safe and efficient as time allows for, then you have to start cutting corners. Management bet too far on the ability of technology to replace humans at the job, so they expect fewer workers to make up the difference when it didn't work out.

Now what you want to do is bring in a bunch of El Salvaroran illegals who will work for 10% of current wage run around getting each other killed rushing around like they do down there. This won't end up saving time or money due to the damages, and it will go one step further dragging our economy and society down the ****hole thinking like this has brought us.
 
Union exist today to line the pockets of it'sofficers. They use their member like politicians use taxpayers. They are all corrupt.
 
Someone please remind me where the POTUS ( union lover) came from and lives ....:dunno:.......:eek::eek:.

Most likely has nothing to do with the president. This is a group of Chicago-based mechanics, so the Northern District of Illinois is the most convenient court for them.
 
Union exist today to line the pockets of it'sofficers. They use their member like politicians use taxpayers. They are all corrupt.

Blanket statements like that are just idiotic propaganda. Is it true there are corrupt scumbag unions? You bet, humanity is full of scumbags in leadership positions because we want to believe what they tell us, and we want easy money, and that's what it takes to become a leader in our society, promise people easy money. This is regardless if it's a union exec, a corporate exec, or the Chief Exec, the POTUS. We get the leadership that we desire.

So faulting the unions is just a cop out to blame someone else for problems that we contribute to. Blame is our way of avoiding personal responsibility, and rationalizing to ourselves our own breeches of conscience.

There are good unions out there, and there are companies that willingly contract with those unions because they provide a value to the company. I belong to a three seafarers unions. 2 of the 3 I have no problems paying dues to, because they give me access to the training facilities that allow me to do all my recurrent and continuing ED stuff which if I had to pay for as an independent would have a significant cost. The companies like using them because they relieve the companies of the burden of tracking qualifications and finding qualified people on a moment's notice, plus they handle all the insurance issues, and SIU and AMO both have excellent benefit and health plans. One boss is an old captain and his intent is to provide a system that creates real value and makes the industry work better.

Intent is why things work well or not. If the intent behind the organization is to rake in all the cash you can, your organization will produce those results because that is what the actions of the method you choose to optimize for that result will return. If your intent is to improve the system adding value and getting paid from the value added, then you will see a positive over all result because you went at it with a positive intent, and that affects the choices of actions we take.
 
Eastern was tanked by Lorenzo. The IAM was locked out, the pilots and flight attendants struck in support. The unions were busted by the bankruptcy which was Lorenzo's goal from the beginning. The courts finally booted Lorenzo out but it was too late.

As for mechanics suing based on coercion and pressure to shortcut maintenance I'd say that is a very believable claim. There is no plausible reason I can think of for anyone to make these allegations up and how it could be construed as a union "trying to take the company down" is beyond me.

The pre-Lorenzo history is hotly-disputed, factually, but there is no question that the discord between the IAM (Charlie Bryan) and Eastern had placed the airline in a precarious state well before Rexas Air's acquisition of EAL. ****-poor management (for a long time) laid the groundwork for that, too.

By the time Texas Air bought Eastern, it was a dead man walking. It is fashionable to simply "blame Lorenzo," but factually incorrect.
 
Blanket statements like that are just idiotic propaganda. Is it true there are corrupt scumbag unions? You bet, humanity is full of scumbags in leadership positions because we want to believe what they tell us, and we want easy money, and that's what it takes to become a leader in our society, promise people easy money. This is regardless if it's a union exec, a corporate exec, or the Chief Exec, the POTUS. We get the leadership that we desire.



So faulting the unions is just a cop out to blame someone else for problems that we contribute to. Blame is our way of avoiding personal responsibility, and rationalizing to ourselves our own breeches of conscience.



There are good unions out there, and there are companies that willingly contract with those unions because they provide a value to the company. I belong to a three seafarers unions. 2 of the 3 I have no problems paying dues to, because they give me access to the training facilities that allow me to do all my recurrent and continuing ED stuff which if I had to pay for as an independent would have a significant cost. The companies like using them because they relieve the companies of the burden of tracking qualifications and finding qualified people on a moment's notice, plus they handle all the insurance issues, and SIU and AMO both have excellent benefit and health plans. One boss is an old captain and his intent is to provide a system that creates real value and makes the industry work better.



Intent is why things work well or not. If the intent behind the organization is to rake in all the cash you can, your organization will produce those results because that is what the actions of the method you choose to optimize for that result will return. If your intent is to improve the system adding value and getting paid from the value added, then you will see a positive over all result because you went at it with a positive intent, and that affects the choices of actions we take.


Replace "unions" with "CEOs" and nothing changes in that entire wall of text. It's meaningless.
 
...but there is no question that the discord between the IAM (Charlie Bryan) and Eastern had placed the airline in a precarious state well before Rexas Air's acquisition...

They were in a sketchy state but to try and lay the blame on unionized mechanics is a real stretch. I think that most people are not at all aware of how difficult it is to conduct a strike under the RLA. In my 27 years we have voted to strike three times during drawn out and contentious negotiations and all three times it was prohibited by a Presidential Emergency Board and forced mediation. The first was under Bush I the second under Clinton and the third under Bush II. Ironically on the third one the Federal Mediation Board gave us two bucks an hour more than we had been asking for when we voted to strike.
 
I'd be surprised if any airline didn't have a few people who tried to cut corners. But there's a difference between that and a systematic problem. I'd be surprised if the union's claims were truly valid.

I remind everyone of AA 191. It was cutting corners and was systemic.

That said, this seems more like a negotiating tactic (albeit a pretty serious one). Remember that labor relations have long been contentious.

Should it prove to be true, it's as much of an indictment of the FAA as it is of AA. Remember, all, that the airlines are currently enjoying record profits.

Won't pass judgement until this gets resolved.
 
Replace "unions" with "CEOs" and nothing changes in that entire wall of text. It's meaningless.

What you just pointed out is the exact point of the pointless text. You are addressing the issue from the wrong perspective. You are blaming vague entities instead of individuals. People jump in and blame unions or blame corporations, or blame government, when these are all false targets that don't do anything, and by addressing the blame there, the ability to correct the problem is eliminated. The problem is that we a want 'easy money', therefore, we choose leadership that promises easy money.

To blame the union in this I don't think addresses the human being that is at the root of this. I have no reason here to doubt the veracity of the mechanics' complaint. First off, the union really only has so much power, they can be eliminated altogether with outsourcing and know it. In this economy being a mechanic for American isn't a job you want to lose, so most mechanics I know would play along with most requests from management. However what is being pointed to as the complaint are threats to their career which would leave them screwed if the carrier folded. So hey, if the allegations are honest, the union is actually serving its function bringing value not only to their members, but to the traveling public as well.

In this situation I believe that the individual that is at the heart of the problem resides in the executive offices.
 
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How is "working by the book" not a work slowdoen?
 
How is "working by the book" not a work slowdoen?

If "working by the book" aka within the law and regs, then the 'slow down' is not an offense, it is a realistic limitation on unrealistic demands. The fault still lies in the management.
 
To blame the union in this I don't think addresses the human being that is at the root of this. I have no reason here to doubt the veracity of the mechanics' complaint. First off, the union really only has so much power, they can be eliminated altogether with outsourcing and know it. In this economy being a mechanic for American isn't a job you want to lose, so most mechanics I know would play along with most requests from management. However what is being pointed to as the complaint are threats to their career which would leave them screwed if the carrier folded. So hey, if the allegations are honest, the union is actually serving its function bringing value not only to their members, but to the traveling public as well.

In this situation I believe that the individual that is at the heart of the problem resides in the executive offices.


While I cannot comment on this particular issue, I spent half of my career working in both union and non-union automotive facilities in the Detroit area. I will say unconditionally that several of them were populated with corrupt and/or misguided unions with members who would happily destroy the lively-hood and/or reputation of the plant for their own personal gain.

It was commonplace to intentionally slow down production lines to preserve weekend OT when low sales did not justify the additional volume. Any floor supervisors who tried to cancel OT work were threatened with severe damage to expensive production equipment to prevent making schedules on straight time.

Management would continually find and pull out beds tucked above idle equipment and behind false walls built by in-house construction crews, often furnished with card tables and beer fridges smuggled into the facility.

Many of these "employees" worked other jobs on the side, and used their union employment to catch up on sleep and run their numbers games. Try and find an employee in a million square foot plant if he wants to hide and sleep. "F-U, supervisor. I was here all day. Are you calling me a liar? Go talk to my steward. Oh, and I have no idea who's been smearing dog sh_t on the door handles of your car in the parking lot."

My father bought a new car off the lot that was built during a union labor dispute. He took it back to the dealer several times for the nasty stink coming from the A/C vents that their air-freshener spritz wouldn't solve. The dealer finally pulled the dash and found two large, moldy fish that had been stuffed into the cross-car A/C duct on the assembly line. The dealer stated that it wasn't the first vehicle they had found that had been tampered with at the factory.

Worked in some fine union shops as well, but the bad ones have forever changed my views on the power and corruption that unions can achieve. I won't even mention the grievance games.
 
Poor management, plus unions, have bankrupted many airlines. The last time american went out, the taxpayers, once again, bailed them out. The only big winners have been the bankruptcy lawyers. In the case of american , they made over 400 million dollars. Don't forget that the government subsidized the airlines in their infancy thru the postal dept. or they never would have made it. Same with the railroads, which in their early years were given tremendous government money and made many multimillionaires. ( lots of corruption too!)
 
If "working by the book" aka within the law and regs, then the 'slow down' is not an offense, it is a realistic limitation on unrealistic demands. The fault still lies in the management.

and who determines they are unrealistic?
 
If "working by the book" aka within the law and regs, then the 'slow down' is not an offense, it is a realistic limitation on unrealistic demands. The fault still lies in the management.

Let's be very realistic here.

Henning, you've got some great things to say, but come on, I'm sure in your line of work you've seen people who "do things by the book" and one will run circles around the next. I've come across many people who don't have a second gear, or choose not to use it. You can choose to work fast or slow and still have the same quality and product of work.

I'm not formulating an opinion on what AMR (or whatever they are now) and the union boys are disputing, but I am disputing the fact that guys can "slow down" on their work and take their sweet old time to get the job done.
 
IF the airline is INDEED pressuring for shoddy maintenance, I expect that this law suit will look like a playground argument compared to the one after a few hundred people die in an accident that is even SUSPECTED of being caused by shoddy maintenance.
 
IF the airline is INDEED pressuring for shoddy maintenance, I expect that this law suit will look like a playground argument compared to the one after a few hundred people die in an accident that is even SUSPECTED of being caused by shoddy maintenance.

Well first of all - a complaint from a mechanic stating that he was pressured to perform shoddy maintenance does not mean that the mechanic performed shoddy maintenance. The complaint is that in refusing to do so he was threatened with or actually received disciplinary action of some sort.
 
My father-in-law was an AA mechanic in the Tulsa shop for 30 years. He took and early-out last year because things were really starting to fall apart between the mechanics, the union, and the management. While I can't comment on recent allegations, I can say that the only coercion and/or intimidation he ever spoke of was from the union. From what I've heard from him, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this is a union power thing.
 
and who determines they are unrealistic?

The results, accidents, efficiency. Small accidents have big impacts on the efficiency of an automated process.

The problem is the same as with airliners. Humans and automation don't really interface well after the point where automation has decision making capability. The interface point is the most common point of failure in high automation airplanes as well.

Either they fully automate the system into an autonomous one or nearly so where the human has a complimentary function aside from the machine function (crane operator is a good example of a good automation/human pairing), or they have to allow for the limitations that humans have.
 
Well first of all - a complaint from a mechanic stating that he was pressured to perform shoddy maintenance does not mean that the mechanic performed shoddy maintenance. The complaint is that in refusing to do so he was threatened with or actually received disciplinary action of some sort.

How is this post related to what you quoted?
 
Sorry Doc I quoted you to expand on what you had stated not as a rebuttal .
 
Really, you mean like how Eastern was too big to fail. The IAM brought them down.

I think it was deregulation that brought Eastern down. I don't think any major airline's business plan could survive a transition that big without major reorganization.

The actual strike was originally all three unions too; only the IAM never went back. I'm not sure that's why they actually shut the doors though. I get the impression something else happened, but the real story is never what winds up in the business magazines.
 
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