denverpilot
Tied Down
It's as hard for CFIs to fire students as it is for students to fire CFIs. 
Am I full of crap?
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ajstoner21
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It's as hard for CFIs to fire students as it is for students to fire CFIs.
I'm not a CFI, but I've fired a ground school student before. We were working through the instrument material, and he just never read or did what I asked, never came prepared. I wasn't even charging him. at all.
I finally told him, in kind of a mean way. "you are wasting my time, and yours. I'm done. when you want to be serious about this, give me a call. and next time, is $40/hr".
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I've refused to sign off a instrument competency check for someone who had lost cognitive skill because of aging. It was pretty apparent on the first flight and I could tell it wasn't getting better by about the third. He was disappointed, in himself mostly, but I think he knew what was going on.It's as hard for CFIs to fire students as it is for students to fire CFIs.
It's as hard for CFIs to fire students as it is for students to fire CFIs.
Where I used to fly, I knew of a flight instructor who had the same student for nearly a year, and the student wasn't good enough to even solo! I don't know how many hours or how much money that person spent, but alot. That person kept coming back, apparently they kept doing the same thing over and over and the student still couldn't even solo. After so much time and so much money spent, I lost respect for that instructor that he kept taking the money but clearly lacked the guts and honesty to simply tell that person that flying was not for him and he shouldn't waste any more money. I left that place so I don't know what happened, but I would be incredibly shocked if that person ever passed a checkride.
IIRC, he has signed her off twice, once at 150hrs and once 60 days and 17 hrs later. I take none of this story at face value.
That was your mistake. When you don't put a value on what you are doing, neither will others. Charge them $40hr and they put forth some effort to get their moneys worth.
It's a double edged sword though. You have to look at the student as well. The instructor is under no moral obligation I see to stop the student from trying and continuing to fly dual. The only obligation I see on the part of the instructor to inform the student honestly "I don't think I will ever be able to get you to solo." At that point the student has to make the value decision for themselves if the money they are spending on flying is worth it or if they want to try a new instructor. If the flying they are doing with the instructor fills their desire and they are just as happy to continue on flying dual realizing that "Yeah, I'm never gonna get this on my own, but I can still have a lot of fun flying around with an instructor and still be safe." Some people don't have a problem realizing their limitations and finding a way to continue anyway.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Your point is? Obviously she needs to take some of the blame for not saying, "no" if she didn't think she was ready, but he also needs to take a good share of the blame for signing her off if he didn't think she was ready.
I think maybe there should be "term limits" for instructors, ~20% over minimums. Say you have 50hrs into a PP candidate, you have to turn them over to another instructor or at least have to advise them that they should consider another instructor. Different people communicate differently. If you have 150 hrs and have gone through 3 instructors, chances are you aren't going to master aviation to a safe standard. If you have 167hrs and haven't realized you aren't learning, I can't help but agree with the instructors final conclusion and blunt "make no mistakes about it" final encounter.
Basically, the answer to the title of this thread is "Yes".
Witmo
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Tim
Lots of good points have been made for the OP to consider. One thing that bothered me is a CFI who would recommend a student for a checkride knowing the student was not ready. DPEs aren't infallible. What if by chance the stars and planets had aligned and the student had passed? Just warning the student not to fly without additional training is ridiculous. If she had passed the first checkride and taken her family up for a ride and killed them all what then?
I don't think the CFI ever imagined she would pass. He's trying to get rid of her and she doesn't want to go. I have seen this play out before.
ebetancourt
Line Up and Wait
I agree there are probably two sides to this, but two points stick out in my mind:
Recommended for a check ride and can't use trim? If true, CFI Fail!
Recommended for a check ride, but not safe to fly solo? If true, CFI Fail!
For what it's worth, if the CFI was trying to "surprise" her to avoid stress over the check ride, it seems like he would have found an excuse to have her bring the paper work. "I want to make sure you have everything you need for your check ride tomorrow."
Ernie
Recommended for a check ride and can't use trim? If true, CFI Fail!
Recommended for a check ride, but not safe to fly solo? If true, CFI Fail!
For what it's worth, if the CFI was trying to "surprise" her to avoid stress over the check ride, it seems like he would have found an excuse to have her bring the paper work. "I want to make sure you have everything you need for your check ride tomorrow."
Ernie
DutchessFlier
Line Up and Wait
Sort of to this point, if I recall, in my part 141 primary experience, we had stage checks with other instructors and could not move on without passing that stage. It was also an opportunity for another CFI to work with you and provide feedback to both you the student and to your primary instructor. Perhaps the whole issue for the OP could have been solved in a 141 program, but that's based on my assumption that she's doing this part 61.
Interesting, what do you see as the issue to solve?
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
You're absolutely right, Henning. My thought was, he was also struggling to afford things, and some of his ideas/perceptions scared the crap out of me, so I thought I would help him out. I needed teaching experience, and he needed some help with stuff. I wasnt really struggling for money, so i thought it would be win win really. It backfired.
Then you charge them $10, dinner, something.
DutchessFlier
Line Up and Wait
Good Question, there's so many issues here for her on so many levels. Perhaps just having another set of eyes, experience, teaching style, and the systemic part 141 stop-gaps in place to deal fairly and honestly with the OP early on in the learning process, things which might have been able to honestly assess her performance, from more than one instructor. This might have provided, for the lack of a better word, "remediation" and if that did not work, then a discussion of whether the OP should have continued based on her ability to meet the standards set up within the stage check process.
Again, not having the whole picture available makes this more of an academic discussion rather than a critique.
I don't think teaching style makes much difference at this point. At 160hrs, if you're gonna learn this (physically flying an airplane), you'd have learned it on your own if all the instructor ever did was keep you from killing yourself in the process.
Would you think that a person who has not figured out how to trim an airplane at 150hrs is ever really going to be a safe pilot?
DutchessFlier
Line Up and Wait
That's just my point. It's not teaching style. It's a systemic process, with measures of satisfactory progress (which was missing here)-beyond which a student could not move past early on in the OP's training. This might have stopped her from going to 160+ hours, and then being told what she reported as being told by her instructor (a real problem at that stage of the game in my humble opinion).
So if she begged to continue at the 141 school when she failed a stage check a couple times by 20hrs and they would have kicked her out then is what you're saying? Possible since there is greater consequence to them.... But would that stop her from going elsewhere?
(It is pitiful, painful even to watch Bill clap...
)
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bob_albertson
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Jim Logajan
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You recall incorrectly. Two instructors. Your home work for today is to read posts 19, 11, and 1.
If you take none of the story at face value then you shouldn't be commenting. Saracelica's factual claims have been consistent since the first time I read about her first failed check ride.
Two instructors makes the claim against the instructor less valid, not more. Her claims have remained consistent, with that I have no disagreement.
ggroves
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Titanium
It's as hard for CFIs to fire students as it is for students to fire CFIs.
No, it's not. Not if, in your judgement, the student simply isn't capable.
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That's the main point that keeps getting the hairs on the back of my neck standing on end...... 150 hours and didn't know how to trim..... I am guessing there is a quite dynamic situation going on here, maybe even beyond the CFI / Student flying relationship. Those complications will for sure make a logical decision very hard to arrive at.. The fact that through all of Sara's posting not once has her husband chimed in on her behalf, and she said he was an instrument rated PP..... Will we hear from him?
IMHO. At what stage do we start calling this thread a "soap opera"..... Stay tuned for the next chapter of " As The Prop Turns"......
.
ggroves
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Titanium
Henning gets it. Poor Sara shows up, crying the blues, and the board falls over themselves. Read her post #2. Most telling post of the thread...shows the level of maturity and mental state.
167 hours...? NFW...
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Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
SaraC, get some time with a different instructor... The old saying that a change is as good as a rest, is true... Then decide if you want to go back to your original CFI - you may want to...
The point is that you need a break from him (and he from you), to be seen by different eyes and different styles of teaching...
I'm in the Saginaw area of Michigan... We have two instructors here who are world class... If push comes to shove give me a jingle and I will hook you up with one... Both are retired ATP's, with experience in flying everything from tail draggers in the back country, delivering bank checks at night over the great lakes in old freight dog twin Cessnas, to high dollar, intercontinental corporate jets... They eat, sleep, and breath airplanes... And they both absolutely LOVE to teach...
Your comment about your husband's attitude is troubling... If you decide to fly somewhere with him, inform him that he is doing the flying and you are doing is reading the latest Daniel Steel bodice ripper, and he can shove his attitude...
If my wife showed the slightest interest in even learning how to hold the yoke and keep it straight while I flip charts, I would turn back flips - and compliment her to the high heavens no matter how well or how poorly she did...
Our daughter and her husband have a cottage at Port Clinton and we fly there frequently (even this week end if we get a break from the lines of thunderstorms pummeling us here today) Perhaps we can meet for a coffee and a chat...
Cheers - denny-o (old but not bold pilot)
The point is that you need a break from him (and he from you), to be seen by different eyes and different styles of teaching...
I'm in the Saginaw area of Michigan... We have two instructors here who are world class... If push comes to shove give me a jingle and I will hook you up with one... Both are retired ATP's, with experience in flying everything from tail draggers in the back country, delivering bank checks at night over the great lakes in old freight dog twin Cessnas, to high dollar, intercontinental corporate jets... They eat, sleep, and breath airplanes... And they both absolutely LOVE to teach...
Your comment about your husband's attitude is troubling... If you decide to fly somewhere with him, inform him that he is doing the flying and you are doing is reading the latest Daniel Steel bodice ripper, and he can shove his attitude...
If my wife showed the slightest interest in even learning how to hold the yoke and keep it straight while I flip charts, I would turn back flips - and compliment her to the high heavens no matter how well or how poorly she did...
Our daughter and her husband have a cottage at Port Clinton and we fly there frequently (even this week end if we get a break from the lines of thunderstorms pummeling us here today) Perhaps we can meet for a coffee and a chat...
Cheers - denny-o (old but not bold pilot)
N747JB
Final Approach
1. How does anyone get past hour number 3 without knowing how to trim?
2. Her husband won't let her fly left seat??
My 16 year old son with 20 hours of dual and a couple solo flies left seat whenever we fly VFR! I think her husband knows she can't fly! he overtrims occasionally. 3. A surprise check ride is a d-bag trick, I doubt it would have been any different 24 hours later.
bob_albertson
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm seeing, among other consistent issues, a lack of sound ADM.
For a pratical example.... If ATC tells her to descend into a mountain she may not decline the request because they are an "authoritative type of person". That's obviously an extreme example, however take out the obvious and throw in something like her husband who is also a pilot and you run into what I called the submissive pilot (back in the days when I instructed). They were so unconfident in any decisions they made that they let others decide for them. That can have catastrophic consequences.
There are other issues going on here - some obvious and some I'm sure we are not seeing/hearing about.
azure
Final Approach
I did the first half of my primary training in a 150 and didn't really learn how to trim until I transitioned to a 172.
I missed where Sara said anything about flying left seat? Her husband won't let her land the plane when he is PIC. Depending on what kind of plane it is, that might be very reasonable. I wouldn't let anyone try to land my plane who isn't at least checked out in make and model. As a 10-hour student pilot a friend once put me in the left seat and let me try to land her Cardinal. She had never before practiced trying to salvage someone else's botched landing. All of my experience to date had been in a 150... I was a fish out of water and so was she. We nearly pranged her plane in the process. Unless Sara's husband is a CFI, he probably has no business playing checkout pilot.2. Her husband won't let her fly left seat??
Concur.3. A surprise check ride is a d-bag trick, I doubt it would have been any different 24 hours later.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
Then said CFI needs to find a spine and say no. I've only had to "fire" 2 students. One of them wasn't cut out to be a pilot. The other, I didn't like and couldn't stand sharing the ramp with, much less a cockpit and I let him go as well.
I think he just did...
N747JB
Final Approach
I'll give a little on the trim area, BUT who sends a student to a check ride that doesn't understand the airplane?
If the husband still needs to be salvaging landings after 150+ hours, she needs 5 hours with a new CFI, and if she's not getting better, she needs to learn to be an interested passenger.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
Just curious, how experienced are all of your instructors? Are they seasoned veterans or fresh guys with barely 250 hours?
N747JB
Final Approach
My primary CFI and I were both college students, I think he was a grizzled old veteran with 200 or so hours, whatever the minimum was, and I was his second student.
My son's CFI has 8-9000 hours and flies charter at our local FBO.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
My primary CFI had about 4,000 hours. Used to fly as SIC (?) for some regional airline, and didn't like it, so now he is chief instructor at a 141 school.
All my other CFI's (like AMEL, complex/hp) were all very inexperienced.
All my other CFI's (like AMEL, complex/hp) were all very inexperienced.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
Throwing a student into a checkride he knew she'd fail is growing a spine? That's pretty weak if you ask me.
Instead of confront the problem head on, like he should, he sluffs it off to someone else? Most students I've seen bust a ride didn't just throw in the towel, they want to be retrained and take it again.
I fail to see your logic in how tossing a student into a known bust solves the issue?
He should man up and tell her he's done, if in fact, that is what is happening. To borrow a phrase, you are still assuming facts not in evidence.
I was taught initially by my father, but he wasn't a civilian instructor, so I had to find a "legit" instructor.
My first private instructor was an idiot and I let him go. He wouldn't let me use a flight plan form, I had to have it memorized??
The man who finished my private up was an older gentleman at the local FBO that had lots of time. All the instructors (from COMM SE to CFI/II/MEI) I had from then on out were relatively low time guys. I'd say less than 1,000 hours easy.
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Everskyward
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