Always be thinking about how the accident report is gonna look....

bbchien

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Bruce C
3 Killed When Small Plane Crashes in Pa.
Aug 13, 11:21 PM EDT


ERIE, Pa. (AP) -- A small plane attempting to land Saturday night crashed about a half-mile short of the runway at Erie International Airport, killing three people and injuring a fourth, airport police said.

The pilot had apparently stopped to get gas in Jamestown, N.Y., but was unable to do so, airport police chief David Bagnoni said.

"My assumption is, they ran out of gas," Bagnoni said.

Two men and a woman were dead at the scene, he said. Another woman was airlifted to Hamot Medical Center, where a spokesman said her condition was still being evaluated.

The victims were from Delaware, and may have been on their way back, Bagnoni said. Their names were not immediately released.

The Federal Aviation Administration was investigating the crash, authorities said.
 
Running out of gas is my biggest fear, My worst nightmare is trying to penetrate Puget Sound and find it 0-0 500' and below.

Nearest VFR Yakima 1.5 hours east with 1. hour fuel left.
 
No excuse for fuel running out of fuel. I would rather sleep in my airplane at some little airport than die. This type of accident makes us all look bad in the eyes of the public. I always know how much fuel I have and I never cut it that close.
 
Every time I read one of these stories I wonder how the pilot could let this happen. It doesn't make sense to me. When I make trips with multiple stops I stick the tanks everywhere I stop. Why rely on estimates which can be way off, especially on longer trips where there are more variables? Fuel and weather are the top priorities.
 
I talked to my Mom this morning, apparently they stopped at Jamestown (?) which isn't too far away, couldn't get fuel, and took off again. if they were that close and took off anyway, they were on fumes at Jamestown/Chautauqua.
 
It is very sad to see this happen. I learned many years ago that the fuel requirements are usually much more that what was orginally planned for to make the flight. Very sad to continue to see folks pushing to complete the trip when they should stop, think and plan.

John
 
I know this FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR that flew a student down to SC. He had his kids in the backseat because it was his weekend to watch them, and he was on final into JNX, and ran out of fuel. Crashed into some powerlines. His daughter broke both her legs, and his son had cuts and bruises. I just don't see how someone could be so stupid. Last I heard he was flying planes in Afganistan.
 
These days you just better call ahead. I've heard of spotty shortages of avgas and Jet-A.
 
I have no doubt this causal factor will be near or at #1, even if you were to be reading the ntsb records in the year 2050 - it just refuses to go away.
 
Toby said:
Every time I read one of these stories I wonder how the pilot could let this happen. It doesn't make sense to me. When I make trips with multiple stops I stick the tanks everywhere I stop. Why rely on estimates which can be way off, especially on longer trips where there are more variables? Fuel and weather are the top priorities.

Here's how it almost happened to me (a long time ago). I flew three friends from Minneapolis to the Chicago area in a 172. We were all attending a marine (boats) trade show at McCormick Place but first we landed at Palwaukee to inspect a sailboat. I filled the tanks at PWK and then flew to Miegs for the show. Fuel was pretty pricey at CGS and in my mind CGS was so close to PWK that I couldn't have used much fuel and we had plenty or reserve when we landed at PWK. Of course the short trip (and the time spent circling the sailboat we had looked at to take pictures from the air) ate up a precious portion of that reserve and the trip home would be into a slight headwind vs the small tailwind we had coming down. On the way home I became concerned as the fuel gauges began to read lower than I'd ever seen them when I still had at least a half hour to go. Of course as we all know, airplane fuel gauges are notiously inaccurate and I was able to convince myself that there must be more fuel than indicated because my calculations showed we should have adequate (barely) fuel to go all the way. I considered stopping at one of the several airports along the way but declined to do so because the resulting delay might make for an arrival after dark and I wasn't night current. To add insult to injury I think I even pushed in the throttle in a bit to shorten the time I'd have to fret over the low fuel! By the time we finally touched down the gauges were sitting on empty and my nerves were frazzled but we made it.

When I refueled the plane it turned out that we had "almost" a half hour's fuel left (about 3 gallons) per my time based calculation predicted, but I vowed never to have to sweat the last half hour of a trip for fuel again. I now plan to have at least an hour's fuel after landing and haven't cut into that yet.
 
lancefisher said:
To add insult to injury I think I even pushed in the throttle in a bit to shorten the time I'd have to fret over the low fuel!

I wonder how many fuel starvation crashes are related to doing just that.

Pulling the mixture out further to reduce the fuel consumption is rational enough to do easily. Less fuel consumption = more time.

Pulling the throttle out and slowing down to fly longer/further isn't quite comforting if you haven't done it before. You know it works however there is a couple billion years of instincts that are telling you that slowing down to avoid being caught by the ravenous monster on your heels is a bad move.

If you're getting into a time/range jam, you gotta get the throttle plates closed as far as practical.
 
fgcason said:
If you're getting into a time/range jam, you gotta get the throttle plates closed as far as practical.

Yer lookin at 2 hours of this out the front window..
 
I think best range is a slightly higher power setting (throttle advancement) than best endurance.
Rather than get into such a hair-splitting situation though.... just be incredibly conservative in your planning. We've had at least 4 fuel starvations around here in the last 8-10yrs... one at night in the mountains no injuries amazingly, one fatal in poor weather, others wrecked the plane can't remember injuries.
 
NC19143 said:
Yer lookin at 2 hours of this out the front window..

Yep.
Best to tanker up if possible before launching across that though.

In too many cases it's the fly past half a dozen fuel stops to save 20 minutes routine that keeps mangling airplanes.
 
If you have tailwinds, you can get better range by throttling back a bit....
 
Early in my civilian flying career I had two close calles in flying club aircraft that changed how I did things from then forward. (In the military there were several times we were nearly out of fuel but for combat emergencies.)

Had a Cherokee 235 I took on a long trip. Had four tanks. When I took off, the left wing was light, but everything looked normal--all fuel gauges full. Long story short, the line guy didn't get the fuel cap on the left outboard tank and all fuel was sucked out--gauge still read full. Because things never felt right, I never went to that tank--even though the pre-landing checklist said 'fuel to fullest tank' and all the others were very low. From then on, I personally checked fuel and caps before departure. Still don't change the fuel tank when low. Do my last fuel tanks changes before landing higher up and am ready to go back if the engine spudders.

Another plane I took also had bad fuel gauges. Crossed check them against a fuel flow meter which also was not accurate. There was a placard stating not to run over XXX hours. Didn't make sense because I still showed 1/3 of fuel left on the fuel flow gauges and computing from what the fuel flow meter said. I continued on just past what the placard said one should do and landed at the first airport just to check. When I refueled, there were only a couple gallons remaining.

On the planes I now own, I insist the fuel tank gauges be accurate. I also have a Shadin in one plane and JPI in the other. I've checked how much fuel it takes to refuel after noting what the tanks show many times to check accuracy. I also log fuel use on my knee board on any trip where it may become and issue.

Best,

Dave
 
Having an accurate fuel totalizer is a very good thing, especially on long trips. You do have to have an accurate starting point.

As Dick Madding used to say, have a good fuel procedure and follow it.
 
wsuffa said:
If you have tailwinds, you can get better range by throttling back a bit....

Unless you are already at or near best range airspeed, slowing down even works in headwinds. If you are running 65% or higher, it would take one heck of a headwind to make a slower speed less efficient.
 
lancefisher said:
Unless you are already at or near best range airspeed, slowing down even works in headwinds. If you are running 65% or higher, it would take one heck of a headwind to make a slower speed less efficient.

What's really neat now Lance is between the Shaddin and GPS one can now clearly see hours of fuel remaining and ETE. On several flights, I've played with RPM and fuel flow (since I fly lean of peak fuel flow governs power) and changed fuel remaining at destination. Although, on more than one occasion, the winds changed significantly enroute; so, one still has to have a back up plan. On one trip in particular, strong headwind, nothing I did seemed to help. If I slowed, the fuel at destination went down; if I sped up it went down. Not the engineer you are, so, I can't 'xplain it. Maybe when my cell phone starts workin in the plane, I can call you when stuff like this happens and you can direct me ;)

I'll put you on speed dial right behind Dave for his advise for dealing with ladies that ask me if I believe in reincarnation!!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
What's really neat now Lance is between the Shaddin and GPS one can now clearly see hours of fuel remaining and ETE. On several flights, I've played with RPM and fuel flow (since I fly lean of peak fuel flow governs power) and changed fuel remaining at destination. Although, on more than one occasion, the winds changed significantly enroute; so, one still has to have a back up plan. On one trip in particular, strong headwind, nothing I did seemed to help. If I slowed, the fuel at destination went down; if I sped up it went down. Not the engineer you are, so, I can't 'xplain it. Maybe when my cell phone starts workin in the plane, I can call you when stuff like this happens and you can direct me ;)

I'll put you on speed dial right behind Dave for his advise for dealing with ladies that ask me if I believe in reincarnation!!

Best,

Dave

My GPS is connected to the Shadin and will display nm/gallon as well as fuel required to reach / extra remaining at the final waypoint.

I too have played with mixture LOP vs nm/gal and from what I've seen, at anything much leaner than 50 LOP the mileage stays the same or decreases. Going from 50 ROP to 20 LOP increases the nm/gal as does pulling back throttle or RPM while staying the same distance and side from peak EGT. Coming back from 180 KTAS to 140 KTAS seems to increase the nm/gal by 30-50%. One other thing I've found is that you need to carefully hold altitude for a good ten minutes or so to get a true reading of the nm/gal and vertical air currents have a noticeable effect that can make it difficult to obtain accurate results.
 
I just had a flight where I did second guess myself. I don't feel so stupid (for being worried) now that I see these stories.

When I checked fuel on departure I was well into the capacity as I expected but found that the right tip tank sump had been dripping, costing me a couple of gallons. With full tips, I have 36 gallons, or two hours, worst case, little reserve. I had maybe 5-7 gallons in each of the mains. It would have been "stay off the mains" time.

The trip home should be an hour and 40 minutes. I took off on the fullest tank, the left tip and then, once in cruise decided to use the mains for short intervals.

I kept staring at the four fuel gauges and making mental calculations on the margin I had. I didn't like it that I didn't start from a known state, usually with a full 84 gallons or full tip tanks, with the mains to the tabs.

It wore on me and wore on me. OK, at 15 GPH, I only need 30 gallons for two hours. I know I have that. Right? Right? I wonder how much I used in the climb. I have fuel remaining and range to empty on the JPI, but it tends to be slightly pessimistic. I need to recalibrate it.

The thoughts in my head, were EXACTLY Always be thinking about how the accident report is gonna look.... "Why did he pass so many perfectly good airports?" In this case it was 6PM on a Sunday so I could expect that the FBOs at many of those perfectly good airports would be closed.

So....I had Flight Following.

"XXX, Request."

"Go ahead"

"Is there any chance you would know of an airport nearby that would have 100 low lead right now?"

"Are you having a fuel problem?"

"Negative. Fuel is NOT critical. I just want to refuel to be sure to I'll make the destination."

"Standby."...."There's XXX about 20 miles southwest from you. "

"Would they be open for fuel at this hour?"

"Standby. I'll call..."

The controller, who I will hereafter call Angel Gabriel made several phone calls and found that the FBOs at the big airport ahead were open 24 hours.

I landed there. I filled up. I took on more fuel than I ever have since owning the plane, ~58 gallons.

I had enough to make it home. Even with a reserve. I felt better knowing that ON THE GROUND.

I felt dumb, but sorta not. I wondered if I provided any entertainment for other aircraft on the frequency.

I know I should have tried FSS instead. Better I have should used the Flight Guide and my cell phone on the ground before launch, but at that time I was fairly sure I was fine.
 
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It's just kinda funny how people will use every tool in their pouch to get just a skoshi bit more range.....read some of the "tricks" in this thread, and then think about it....is that JPI 100% accurate? Does it account for a slow leak in the tank? If you lean a bit more with a tailwind....or anything else.....I guess it's all just a gamble anyway.:dunno:

I flew once with a very senior pilot a very long way over water. No room for error. When we landed, we had ~40 gallons left TOTAL for 2 R-985's.:hairraise: And we had ferry tanks. Not much breathing room, but then again, the whole thing is about risk and gambling.

Live and learn. Land and refuel and live to fly again. I hope that it's a mistake I never make. The C-172 I am currently flying has ER tanks, and I will not go more than 4 hrs befor I start looking for a place to land in the next hour. Too conservative? Maybe, but so far I have not shown up in any reports.:D

Y'all fly safe and sane and have fun.:cheerswine:
 
My story goes this way,Left CXY heading to HWV,had 50 gal aboard (should be plenty) flew up around NY airspace,nice tailwind going there. Coming back had a headwind i didnt calculate for. when i got back to CXY only had 5 gallion left in the tanks.So from now on i dont fly any longer then 4 hours and i stop for fuel,beside at 4 hours i'm ready to strech my legs. also i should say i plan for 10GPH even though i dont burn that . I like having fuel in the tanks when i'm done. Dave G (PA28-161)
 
Do you folks remember that Seinfeld episode where Kramer is test driving a car and he and the salesman keep driving once the car is on empty just to see howfar it will go when the needle is on E? I definitly push it in my car but am scared Shi&less to even think about it in a plane I have had many folks laugh at me for topping off. Hey I'm still here:yes:
 
The controller, who I will hereafter call Angel Gabriel made several phone calls and found that the FBOs at the big airport ahead were open 24 hours.
======================

Mike: Great stroy.

I've had Center and FSS do something like you described. Center can't always if they're busy, as you know, but will if they can.

Did you call the supervisor and thank him afterwards? I've found that to be very rewarding for me and the supervisor receiving the call.

Dave
 
Live and learn. Land and refuel and live to fly again. I hope that it's a mistake I never make. The C-172 I am currently flying has ER tanks, and I will not go more than 4 hrs befor I start looking for a place to land in the next hour. Too conservative? Maybe, but so far I have not shown up in any reports.:D

Y'all fly safe and sane and have fun.:cheerswine:[/QUOTE]
====================

Yes, it's still a gamble, but the more checks you make, the better you know your systems, and the better the systems, the more likely you would catch something like a leak in a tank (if it's catchable). Here in the States, part 91 with plenty of places to stop is different than a ferry mission over water. I can certainly see how a fuel leak with analog gauges that weren't real accurate could get someone in trouble and how they would trick the fuel flow gauge.

In the Baron, I have left and right main analog gauges and A JPI. You are certainly correct, the JPI would not help with a fuel leak from a main. Hopefully, the analog gauge would drop more than normal (and mine are normally highly accurate as they get toward "E"). I also have a knee board log. Each hour I log fuel remaining, fuel burned and time remaining from the JPI, then cross check it to the analog gauge reading. The power settings give me endurance. Six hours at what I normally have at 2200; 30" and 13/5 GPH.

I would be much more concerned when flying an aircraft that wasn't mine or right after some work had been performed that could affect this.

On this trip to San Diego, I stopped just over 5 hours even though I 'might' have made KSEE without stopping. Why take the chance when Yuma had a long runway, willing FBO and was cheaper than where I was landing?

Best,

Dave
 
ON long trips I fly no more than 3 hours tops for I enjoy stopping at small out of the way airports, stretching the legs, check the weather etc. Some of my early planes did not have more than about 4.5 hours to quitting time so I have stayed with the 3 hour flight plan for many years. my current plane carries 5.40 hrs to dry tanks at 65% ROP and 6.15 LOP. I still land after 3 for I just need a break. I use a stop watch that I set when the engine starts and work off of that. I know it cuts into the travel time and takes longer for the over all flight( fuel and break stops) but I get to see and meet interesting folks at the small airports along the way. It has worked out very well and it is one less thing to worry about when on those approaches that are close to minimums.

John
 
"I would rather sleep in my airplane at some little airport than die."

Been there, done that, got the crik in my back to prove it! ;-)

Actually, it was a passing line of T-storms at 4 am, but same difference.
 
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