aluminum / nickel in cessna 150 oil sample

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bobkiksass

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bobkiksass
Hi,

I just had the oil in my cessna 150 / cont 0200 changed by a new mechanic, and the mechanic provided spectral analysis. My motor has around 300 hours on it, penn yann rebuild. It is the first time Ive had the oil sampled. take a look http://i.imgur.com/Ud3RGh2.png

The mechanic called yesterday and said the analysis discovered nickel and aluminum in the sample. He suggested that the aluminum could be from sticking valves. He was unsure about the nickel, saying that there are no components which are made of nickel. It is possible it is a coating on a part he said, or that the exhaust valves were changed out for nickel.

He asked me if I have experienced roughness or "morning sickness" on the plane when starting it cold. It ran a little rough once on a really cold morning, but smoothed out after 5 minutes of idling and warming up. Run up sounded fine. Other than that it has never had hiccup except for once when experiencing carb ice.

At last anual the plan at 80/80 and 79/80 compression when tested, but he explained that this doesnt neccesarily mean the valves are seating properly.

anyone have any advice, or insite reading this analysis.
 
Not exciting readings. If it has ECI Nickel cylinders it could be a bit of piston scuffing causing both readings. Resample in 25 hours along with a filter or screen inspection. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
 
I think the plane does have eci-nickle cylinders, i am not positive tho. if there is piston scuffing, what does this indicate ?
 
bobkiksass said:
I think the plane does have eci-nickle cylinders, i am not positive tho. if there is piston scuffing, what does this indicate ?
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Operating the engine colder than it likes, no biggie unless it happens to jam and crack a ring (rare as hens teeth). Just keep monitoring oil analysis and cutting open filters.
 
one onther thing, my plane burns virtually no oil. I was reading that this could be indicative that oil is not circulating up into the cylinder heads where it would normally be burned up, allowing for some scuffing. Does anyone have an opinion on how much oil is a healthy amount to burn in the 0-200 indicating proper coating in the cylinder heads?
 
There is no reason it needs to consume oil. What are your oil temps? What does it smell like?
 
oil temp is fine, in the summer when we were going cross country it would get a little high in the green arc tho. After runing the motor Ive noticed the oil pressure is a bit low when idling, in the bottom of the green.... Ive never smelt burning oil.
 
Meh, keep an eye on it, if you have a borescope you may take a peak and see what your cylinders look like, but for now just see what happens on your next oil analysis.
 
Al is piston, Ni is cylinder bore. The cylinders are a casting of Iron with Nickel for stability and expansion. You have had some piston scuffing. Your viscosities look a tad low, wondering if this is a multi-vis oil?

Way too much lead, way too high. When the engine starts, lean aggressively as soon as you can, keep it very lean until you are ready for take off, richen to take off, then lean aggressively in cruise. This will save fuel and keep the lead out of the engine, it will also keep your plugs in better condition.

Doubt anything to do with the ex valve guides. If you think about it, any oil that slips through the seal into the valve/guide will be blown out the stack, very little might make it back past the seal again to get returned to the case. There is an oil consumption chart in the O-200 rebuild manual. I'm working from memory, but I think it's range is 1 qt in 22 hours down to 1 qt in 3.5 hours, but don't quote me. No oil consumption at all indicates a pretty tight engine, which goes back to scuffing.
 
thanks for the info about leaning it and lead.

What can be done about piston scuffing ? I am using aeroshell 100 oil. Do you recommend something else ?

My plane burns virtually no oil, and the compression like i said was very high at last annual. The motor may indeed be "tight". How do I avoid the piston scuffing ? My uncle with his old 150 used to rotate the prop by hand a few times before starting it to bring oil up into the cylinders, he would describe that the oil drips out of the cylinders over time, and starting the motor dry like that could "scuff" it. Should I be doing this before starting my plane each time ? I try to fly it at least once a week....
 
What oil are you using?
 
bobkiksass said:
What can be done about piston scuffing ? I am using aeroshell 100 oil. Do you recommend something else ?
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Avoid cold starts - especially with thick oil. I recall the 100 hp Continental is spec'd at 40 wt oil summer and 20W30 in winter. Unless it's really warm where you are, 50 weight is probably too thick. With 50 weight & no preheat, you are probably pushing your luck below about 45 degF. An engine near TBO could probably take a little lower.

It takes a while before the crankcase develops a fog of oil if your oil is too heavy, and that's all that lubes the cylinders.
 
bobkiksass said:
thanks for the info about leaning it and lead.

What can be done about piston scuffing ? I am using aeroshell 100 oil. Do you recommend something else ?

My plane burns virtually no oil, and the compression like i said was very high at last annual. The motor may indeed be "tight". How do I avoid the piston scuffing ? My uncle with his old 150 used to rotate the prop by hand a few times before starting it to bring oil up into the cylinders, he would describe that the oil drips out of the cylinders over time, and starting the motor dry like that could "scuff" it. Should I be doing this before starting my plane each time ? I try to fly it at least once a week....
Click to expand...

Don't know where you live, but winter weight for that engine is SAE 20, and you are using SAE 50! If you are in Hawaii, or S FL maybe you can get away with it, but pretty much anywhere else, you've gotta use a 20 or 30 wt oil below 40F. Or, like I said before, you can go to a multi-vis oil which will provide better cold oil viscosity correction.

Read your owners/op manual, the info is in there.
 
These engines were designed to run W100 summer, and W80 winter.

My advice is to switch to Phillips 20 W 50 winter and summer and the numbers you are worried about will come down.

are you a key start?

read oil talk for dummies at ECI2FLY.com.

you are basically over dosing your engine with additives that ECI does not recommend.
 
Just to second what everyone else says and expand on the temps of the lycoming engine. I've had very good luck with Phillips 20-50 Xcountry oil and can second what Tom Says. I flew a lycoming 320. Small lycomings run cooler so you need to worry about getting them warm enough and we had to put a winter plate to let it warm up in the winter so you might see if you can fashion a winter(blocks some air flow over the cylinders) flying plate to allow the engine to get to warm enough temps in the winter. IF the engine/oil doesn't get warm enough then you don't burn off moisture from the oil and corrosion results in the engine at a higher rate. Cold oil reduces oil flow. Warm/Hot oil could help the oil flows in the winter. Also if you are burning too rich that keeps the engine cooler as well so revisit set your lean mixture during cruise flight.

Then next oil change you will compare that oil analysis as well. I guess Charlie recommends not going over 25 hrs to see where you are at on the scuffing.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Just to second what everyone else says and expand on the temps of the lycoming engine. I've had very good luck with Phillips 20-50 Xcountry oil and can second what Tom Says. I flew a lycoming 320. Small lycomings run cooler so you need to worry about getting them warm enough and we had to put a winter plate to let it warm up in the winter so you might see if you can fashion a winter(blocks some air flow over the cylinders) flying plate to allow the engine to get to warm enough temps in the winter. IF the engine/oil doesn't get warm enough then you don't burn off moisture from the oil and corrosion results in the engine at a higher rate. Cold oil reduces oil flow. Warm/Hot oil could help the oil flows in the winter. Also if you are burning too rich that keeps the engine cooler as well so revisit set your lean mixture during cruise flight.

Then next oil change you will compare that oil analysis as well. I guess Charlie recommends not going over 25 hrs to see where you are at on the scuffing.
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Day and night difference between the 0-200 Continental and the 0-320- Lycoming in materials and the temps they operate.
His 150/0-200 will run hot enough to not be concerned with the problems you speak of.

0-200 has a kidney sump where any water will be trapped in the lower portion and be expelled at the next oil drain.

the 0-320 has a flat bottomed sump where the water will be held until the next start up and be the first to leave the sump when the oil pump starts pumping.
 
bobkiksass said:
What can be done about piston scuffing ? I am using aeroshell 100 oil. Do you recommend something else ?..
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Your piston scuffing (if you really do have any) is due to you running a 15 weight oil when the engine was designed for at minimum a 40 weight.

change to Phillips 20W50 and you are in compliance with ECI's recommendations. other wise I doubt ECI will honor the warrantee.
 
Tom-D said:
Your piston scuffing (if you really do have any) is due to you running a 15 weight oil when the engine was designed for at minimum a 40 weight.

change to Phillips 20W50 and you are in compliance with ECI's recommendations. other wise I doubt ECI will honor the warrantee.
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Uh - wanna look at that again Tom? I think your numbers are upside down. He's got 50 SAE in there, and needs a 30-ish. But your oil recommendation is spot on. I use 20-50 Philliips in my old Conti and have no oil problems except leaking, which I can't blame on the oil!
 
Blackstone over-reacted to nickel in our oil samples at first with our "new" engine. Then we told them it had ECI cylinders, and they understood. Short of something really, really high, oil analysis needs to be looked at as a trend on the engine. Don't get too excited about any one analysis.

Jeff
 
You only have one sample. At this point you have no trend to go with. You will need to get future samples to see if things are changing.

How much time on the engine?

Aluminum is from the piston and Nickle could be from the cylinders like others have said. If you have no oil consumption then your theory might be right that it is a bit tight. But like I said, with a first sample, not a lot you could do. Maybe boroscope the cylinders if you are worried about it.
 
docmirror said:
Uh - wanna look at that again Tom? I think your numbers are upside down. He's got 50 SAE in there, and needs a 30-ish. But your oil recommendation is spot on. I use 20-50 Philliips in my old Conti and have no oil problems except leaking, which I can't blame on the oil!
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I missed that in post #10. but he does not need a 30 weight, his W100 should be working great.
 
Tom-D said:
I missed that in post #10. but he does not need a 30 weight, his W100 should be working great.
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http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/5e50b95b0626f8f5862579530052720d/$FILE/E-252%20rev%2033.pdf

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/aeroshelloils.php

Well, hate to disagree here, but Conti says it needs a 20 or 30 SAE from 40F and below. He's running W100 which is 50 SAE. Either go to an AD 20 or 30 SAE weight in winter, or as you prev said the 20W50 Phillips. He is not ok with W100 in winter(unless it's warm, even then might be too heavy given the test results).
 
docmirror said:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/5e50b95b0626f8f5862579530052720d/$FILE/E-252%20rev%2033.pdf

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/aeroshelloils.php

Well, hate to disagree here, but Conti says it needs a 20 or 30 SAE from 40F and below. He's running W100 which is 50 SAE. Either go to an AD 20 or 30 SAE weight in winter, or as you prev said the 20W50 Phillips. He is not ok with W100 in winter(unless it's warm, even then might be too heavy given the test results).
Click to expand...

I haven't seen any one use a 30 weight oil in a 150 since the ending of the last ice age.

many are using 15W50 aeroshell and crying about short starter life and high oil analyst numbers.

But most important is the Cylinder manufacturer advises to use 20W50 Phillips from day 1 to TBO and provide a pamphlet for the break in period, yet the A&Ps will still use a mineral oil and ignore the manufacturers requirements.
 
OK, for that part we're on the same page. But - using 100W in winter is not a good plan.
 
docmirror said:
OK, for that part we're on the same page. But - using 100W in winter is not a good plan.
Click to expand...

Time of the year isn't the issue, temps are, the folks in Hi. aren't worried about hard starting. :)
 
ok, so I am on the southern california coast. Rarely is the temp down to freezing, i think that freezing happens a few times a year. I believe the plane has had 50 weight aeroshell 100w oil in it.

Today i was flying the plane with my airline pilot buddy. We were doing a short takeoff, after flying for about 45 minutes of touch and gos. The plane was warm. We noticed there was reduced power on one takeoff, the plane was struggling to climb. Then on climbout the motor was starting to vibrate, not run rough like fuel starving, but kinda shaking. We both noticed it and so turned back towards the field. By the time I had turned the power seemed to have been returned, the motor smoothed out and we got noticeably more power. We landed, did a run up, inspected the motor no issues. Did another few touch & gos, no problem.

I am wondering if that sudden vibration and small loss of power is something indicative of "morning sickness" or the valves not working right ? The guy who I was flying with is airline pilot and has lots of hours in cessna 150s. He suggested it was just the motor burning thru a bit of carbon.

It kind of scared me, but went away quick and we seemed to be running fine for the next 45 min of flying.

also, my mechanic thinks I should have the prop balanced. There is already a bit of vibration when flying, but this was more than usual.

Any thoughts ?
 
bobkiksass said:
ok, so I am on the southern california coast. Rarely is the temp down to freezing, i think that freezing happens a few times a year. I believe the plane has had 50 weight aeroshell 100w oil in it.

Today i was flying the plane with my airline pilot buddy. We were doing a short takeoff, after flying for about 45 minutes of touch and gos. The plane was warm. We noticed there was reduced power on one takeoff, the plane was struggling to climb. Then on climbout the motor was starting to vibrate, not run rough like fuel starving, but kinda shaking. We both noticed it and so turned back towards the field. By the time I had turned the power seemed to have been returned, the motor smoothed out and we got noticeably more power. We landed, did a run up, inspected the motor no issues. Did another few touch & gos, no problem.

I am wondering if that sudden vibration and small loss of power is something indicative of "morning sickness" or the valves not working right ? The guy who I was flying with is airline pilot and has lots of hours in cessna 150s. He suggested it was just the motor burning thru a bit of carbon.

It kind of scared me, but went away quick and we seemed to be running fine for the next 45 min of flying.

also, my mechanic thinks I should have the prop balanced. There is already a bit of vibration when flying, but this was more than usual.

Any thoughts ?
Click to expand...

Yup... if you are getting elevated aluminum content in the oil, there is a good chance the valve guide had lost its press fit and is sliding up and down in its bore....... Have a mechanic pull the valve covers off and look.. it might take 30 minutes tops.... On your original post you stated elevated alumimum might be bad valves.... That is the ONLY scenerio I came come up with...:eek:
 
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With the high levels of lead I saw in the sample, I would also be concerned about lead fouling. Since you were full rich on takeoff, there's a chance for a valve to be sticking and moving the guide in the seat, or you are lead fouling the engine. While you are looking at the guides, take the plugs out and look for small round gray dots around the insulator and the tip. You may need bright daylight or a high intensity light to see them. If you do see these small gray dots in the plug well, those are balls of lead that aren't scavenged out during combustion. You'll need to clean the plugs carefully, and be more careful about leaning.

Your A&P should know about the rope method for inspecting the valve guides so that you don't need to remove the jug to check them. If not, google it. Another reason to remove the plugs.

Balancing the prop is always a good idea. Also have the tracking checked. Plenty of fixed pitch props are running around out of track causing wobbles.
 
N801BH said:
Yup... if you are getting elevated aluminum content in the oil, there is a good chance the valve guide had lost its press fit and is sliding up and down in its bore....... Have a mechanic pull the valve covers off and look.. it might take 30 minutes tops.... On your original post you stated elevated alumimum might be bad valves.... That is the ONLY scenerio I came come up with...:eek:
Click to expand...

If that were happening, the valve would not set on the seat correctly, and there would be a bunch of other symptoms.

Like a lot of metal in the oil.
 
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bobkiksass said:
ok, so I am on the southern california coast. Rarely is the temp down to freezing, i think that freezing happens a few times a year. I believe the plane has had 50 weight aeroshell 100w oil in it.

Today i was flying the plane with my airline pilot buddy. We were doing a short takeoff, after flying for about 45 minutes of touch and gos. The plane was warm. We noticed there was reduced power on one takeoff, the plane was struggling to climb. Then on climbout the motor was starting to vibrate, not run rough like fuel starving, but kinda shaking. We both noticed it and so turned back towards the field. By the time I had turned the power seemed to have been returned, the motor smoothed out and we got noticeably more power. We landed, did a run up, inspected the motor no issues. Did another few touch & gos, no problem.

I am wondering if that sudden vibration and small loss of power is something indicative of "morning sickness" or the valves not working right ? The guy who I was flying with is airline pilot and has lots of hours in cessna 150s. He suggested it was just the motor burning thru a bit of carbon.

It kind of scared me, but went away quick and we seemed to be running fine for the next 45 min of flying.

also, my mechanic thinks I should have the prop balanced. There is already a bit of vibration when flying, but this was more than usual.

Any thoughts ?
Click to expand...

San Diego is 58 Degrees today, I think you got your first taste of carb ice.
 
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