Aluminum Ion battery


Not likely for aircraft that don't use electric propulsion motors as the weight penalty doesn't provide any benefit. In electric drive applications where you are building the battery and structure together, it would pan out, but at the current cycle ability would prove a pretty expensive proposition for aircraft.

Most likely this technology will be mostly car and truck based where the weight penalty isn't as severe and you have more large, easily formed and replaceable panels like the hood and doors which can also serve as batteries.
 
Energy density is the biggest problem with batteries for propulsion. This new battery isn't even close to being practical for that, but it does sound like it could be promising if they overcome the technical issues an get more power per unit mass. For phone use it could probably work as it is now since it can be charged in 1 minute. Cool stuff.
 
Energy density is the biggest problem with batteries for propulsion. This new battery isn't even close to being practical for that, but it does sound like it could be promising if they overcome the technical issues an get more power per unit mass. For phone use it could probably work as it is now since it can be charged in 1 minute. Cool stuff.

Yeah, I had to laugh at this quote by the researcher:

Improving the cathode material could eventually increase the voltage and energy density," said Dai. "Otherwise, our battery has everything else you'd dream that a battery should have...

'Except for not having sufficient capacity to power much of anything it's a great battery'...
 
Yeah, I had to laugh at this quote by the researcher:



'Except for not having sufficient capacity to power much of anything it's a great battery'...

Well, it's a balancing act between capacity and recharge capability. If I can recharge a 50 mile range in a minute or two, I have a viable electric car. If I can mold the batteries into the body panels and get a 200 mile range on a 5 minute charge, I now have a car that will end the use of the internal combustion engine for cars.
 
Well, it's a balancing act between capacity and recharge capability. If I can recharge a 50 mile range in a minute or two, I have a viable electric car. If I can mold the batteries into the body panels and get a 200 mile range on a 5 minute charge, I now have a car that will end the use of the internal combustion engine for cars.

Not quite. How am I going to find a place to quick-charge when driving 400+ miles to see family? Or go to the beach? There are many areas in this country alone where spots of civilization are 200 miles apart, don't leave one without a full charge or with a tired battery that won't charge all the way, or may discharge a little fast.

200 mile range is great for going to work or the grocery store, even hauling kids around, but for instance, how would my wife's boss drive to visit his son in Oklahoma? How many stops? No thanks.

This has the potential to reduce the use of internal combustion engines for commuter cars, along with lawn mowers, weed eaters, aircraft tugs, small tractors and even bass boats, but not cars that people use for real transportation. It is nothing more than a possible step in that direction.
 
Not quite. How am I going to find a place to quick-charge when driving 400+ miles to see family? Or go to the beach? There are many areas in this country alone where spots of civilization are 200 miles apart, don't leave one without a full charge or with a tired battery that won't charge all the way, or may discharge a little fast.

200 mile range is great for going to work or the grocery store, even hauling kids around, but for instance, how would my wife's boss drive to visit his son in Oklahoma? How many stops? No thanks.

This has the potential to reduce the use of internal combustion engines for commuter cars, along with lawn mowers, weed eaters, aircraft tugs, small tractors and even bass boats, but not cars that people use for real transportation. It is nothing more than a possible step in that direction.

At the charging stand at the same place you now buy gas and snacks, stopping every 3 hours for 5 minutes is already pretty routine and creates no difference in hardship or schedule. The retailers want to get rid of gasoline as well, huge tanks with even huger liability, they don't make squat off the gas anyway, the reason they sell gas is to get you store where they make big bucks. You pull in, plug in at your parking spot (no more pumps and hoses, just a pole with an electric lead at every spot), go in, buy your Coke, chips, and a sandwich and pay for your electricity at the same time, walk out, unplug and go.

The moment a 5 minute recharge, whether through electrons or hydrogen, becomes available, gasoline will no longer power future vehicles. Nobody except the oil majors want to keep dealing with the crap. Toyota and Tesla have both put all their patents on the technology in the public domain to encourage and stimulate the change. Every car manufacturer has EVs ready to sell, they either need hydrogen suppliers or a fast charge battery and the industry will change and grow faster than the PC industry.
 
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This battery is not practical for transportation as it is now. It needs another breakthrough or two. It needs to increase it's power density 2 to 6 times just be the same as lithium ion. The gulf between great idea and reduction to practice can be very formidable, especially with new technologies. Time will tell. Once the power density barrier is broken I think we will see the quick demise of internal combustion for personal travel.
 
This battery is not practical for transportation as it is now. It needs another breakthrough or two. It needs to increase it's power density 2 to 6 times just be the same as lithium ion. The gulf between great idea and reduction to practice can be very formidable, especially with new technologies. Time will tell. Once the power density barrier is broken I think we will see the quick demise of internal combustion for personal travel.

It doesn't need to be the same as LIon batteries because it can be formed into whatever shape, but it would certainly help. It just needs to be cost effective to produce.
 
Well, it's a balancing act between capacity and recharge capability. If I can recharge a 50 mile range in a minute or two, I have a viable electric car. If I can mold the batteries into the body panels and get a 200 mile range on a 5 minute charge, I now have a car that will end the use of the internal combustion engine for cars.

It won't end the internal combustion engine if the economics don't work. The resulting product must be both affordable to the mass-market (without significant subsidies), provide a relatively low total cost of ownership, and provide performance capabilities comparable to vehicles powered by the internal combustion engine. Current mass-market hybrid and electric vehicles don't meet those standards.


JKG
 
It won't end the internal combustion engine if the economics don't work. The resulting product must be both affordable to the mass-market (without significant subsidies), provide a relatively low total cost of ownership, and provide performance capabilities comparable to vehicles powered by the internal combustion engine. Current mass-market hybrid and electric vehicles don't meet those standards.


JKG

The durability and cost of the batteries certainly is the key issue in this. However, considering the manufacturing materials required are low cost and common, this may be a managable issue. If you can buy a new battery set every 3 years for $1000, you have a pretty viable product.

We should have dumped gasoline in the 70s but decided to concentrate on weapons programs instead. Don't tell me about technology not existing. When we focus on developing technology, we develop it really quickly. The entire Manhattan Project from first sustained reaction in Chicago to the first test at Trinity was under 2 years. Don't tell me we couldn't have developed a better battery or the entire hydrogen infrastructure in the same time span.
 
I can tell you've never developed anything.

Been doing it since I was a kid. Grew up around a bunch of guys who did not accept 'impossible' for an answer, and I still don't. That's why I get paid what I get paid on projects so I don't have to work all the time. Nothing is impossible with sufficient thought and effort.

Like I said, the Manhattan Project was 2 years inside which an entire unknown property was developed into the most powerful and concentrated energy source man has harnessed.

You believe in impossible technology likely for the same reason you give absolute allegiance to your religion, you don't like to think much.
 
A five minute stop every 2-3 hoirs is not acceptable. Even my pickup goes furth than that on 15 gallons. In the car, I've gone 500+ miles without stopping, much less buying chips and a drink.
 
Like I said, the Manhattan Project was 2 years inside which an entire unknown property was developed into the most powerful and concentrated energy source man has harnessed.

It wasn't two years. Roosevelt authorized research into the feasibility of constructing a bomb on October 9, 1941.

But theoretical development of the bomb had been ongoing for years prior to that date, and it certainly wasn't an unknown, either. In September 1933, physicist Leo Szilard had the idea that if the atom of a chemical element could be coaxed into shedding two or more electrons by being struck with one electron it could be used to create electrical power on an industrial scale and build an extremely powerful bomb.

Szilard applied for and was granted a British patent for the concept of an atomic bomb in 1934.

On July 4, 1934 Leo Szilard filed a patent application for the atomic bomb. In his application, Szilard described not only the basic concept of using neutron induced chain reactions to create explosions, but also the concept of the critical mass. The patent was awarded to him, making Leo Szilard the legally recognized inventor of the atomic bomb.

http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/popups/patent.htm

In December 1938, physicists Lise Meitner and Otto Frisch were the first to describe the mechanism which resulted in the splitting of the atom and coined the term "nuclear fission".

Shortly after that it became common knowledge to physicists worldwide (including those in Germany, Japan, Italy, Great Britain, and the USSR) that Uranium-235 could be used to make a bomb thousands of times more powerful than any such weapon currently in use.

The Manhattan Project's biggest challenge was finding a way to physically separate the uranium-235 isotope from the element uranium. Naturally occurring uranium is 99.27 percent uranium-238, with uranium-235, the isotope most suited to producing energy, making up about 0.72 percent.

By the end of 1938 the theory of an atomic bomb was well known among physicists and its development was thus inevitable. By contrast, the aluminum ion battery, and for that matter chemical battery technology advancements as a whole, are limited by constraints on the atomic level. This almost certainly precludes the development of a chemical battery which has ten times the recharge capacity of known battery electrolytes and the ability to recharge a 100 kW battery plant in just minutes.

For energy storage to reach those goals, a paradigm of unknown certainty must be discovered. This is different from the development of the nuclear bomb. From the moment in 1905 that Einstein developed his theory of Special Relativity and postulated that energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable (E = mc2), the outcome that realized atomic fission was preordained. No such path currently exists for the miracle battery.
 
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A five minute stop every 2-3 hoirs is not acceptable. Even my pickup goes furth than that on 15 gallons. In the car, I've gone 500+ miles without stopping, much less buying chips and a drink.

You're unique with that. Once technology gets to where you can drive for 2 to 3 hours on electricity and be fully charged, one way or another, in a 5 minute time frame, with infrastructure all over to do that..the vast majority of drivers would be incredibly happy.
 
A five minute stop every 2-3 hoirs is not acceptable. Even my pickup goes furth than that on 15 gallons. In the car, I've gone 500+ miles without stopping, much less buying chips and a drink.

If that is unacceptable to you to stop 5 minutes every 3 hours to save 66% on your energy costs, man, you time must be worth thousands of dollars an hour.
 
If that is unacceptable to you to stop 5 minutes every 3 hours to save 66% on your energy costs, man, you time must be worth thousands of dollars an hour.

My pickup would be out of gas with 15 gallons on Interstate 80 at 75 mph in 2.6 hours.
 
If that is unacceptable to you to stop 5 minutes every 3 hours to save 66% on your energy costs, man, you time must be worth thousands of dollars an hour.

As most people do, you have ignored the costs of building a charging station network and the costs of the energy used. Free charging stations will disappear, and the development of the network will eventually cost hundreds of billions.
 
As most people do, you have ignored the costs of building a charging station network and the costs of the energy used. Free charging stations will disappear, and the development of the network will eventually cost hundreds of billions.

What network? Industrial grade electricity is already at every gas station across the country. The cost to put in a couple dozen poles and power points is less than an interior remodel, and those happen evey few years.

You seem to ignore the high cost of producing and distributing gasoline from the well to the filler nozzle. The infrastructure cost will pay off immediately in the the first load of gasoline replaced.
 
Any one consider how many people work in the fuel/oil/ economy. battery replacing that industry will be devastating to the unemployed numbers.

Algae on the other hand adds jobs to the industry by those farmers that will be growing the stuff. All technology is already in place. all parts and equipment is already available.

The more I read about the battery industry the less I like it with the amount of Haz-mat waist developed and the disposal requirements after use is a huge undisclosed topic.
 
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Any one consider how many people work in the fuel/oil/ economy. battery replacing that industry will be devastating to the unemployed numbers.

Algae on the other hand adds jobs to the industry by those farmers that will be growing the stuff. All technology is already in place. all parts and equipment is already available.

So? The industrial expansion to deal with the new model, the cost savings, and the increase in domestic gas for the electricity, and employment in the ensuing Urban Agriculture system will absorb all those losses as well as general employment and pructivity among the unskilled, while simultaneously replacing the cash based Welfare social safety net with a resource based social safety net that is completely self supporting. Since the system produces energy and grows food very economically, and tending plants in a green house environment is not particularly labor intensive, a person could earn their keep by coming in 5 hrs a week and putting in some work. Put in some more work and learn some things and you get a share in the coop and start taking part in the electric and water sale profits. Since these operations will already require large structures, building out dorms and apartments to deal with homelessness.

The best way to assure your own safety is to assure everyone's security, and that is food, water, and safe shelter. Once you set up your social infrastructure to assure that, now you can have a peaceful and productive society that doesn't need so many restrictions.

What we lack as a society and species is a worthy goal, we have no cohesive direction. All we want is more money and stuff with no objective besides personal satisfaction.

That is the result of being a Godless society.
 
So? The industrial expansion to deal with the new model, the cost savings, and the increase in domestic gas for the electricity, and employment in the ensuing Urban Agriculture system will absorb all those losses as well as general employment and pructivity among the unskilled, while simultaneously replacing the cash based Welfare social safety net with a resource based social safety net that is completely self supporting. Since the system produces energy and grows food very economically, and tending plants in a green house environment is not particularly labor intensive, a person could earn their keep by coming in 5 hrs a week and putting in some work. Put in some more work and learn some things and you get a share in the coop and start taking part in the electric and water sale profits. Since these operations will already require large structures, building out dorms and apartments to deal with homelessness.

The best way to assure your own safety is to assure everyone's security, and that is food, water, and safe shelter. Once you set up your social infrastructure to assure that, now you can have a peaceful and productive society that doesn't need so many restrictions.

What we lack as a society and species is a worthy goal, we have no cohesive direction. All we want is more money and stuff with no objective besides personal satisfaction.

That is the result of being a Godless society.

That post is simply a rant, I really doubt any battery industry will ever support the number of workers that the oil industry does. Plus the EPA will never allow that toxic waste to be made here, so the batteries will be made off shore by machines in China.

Algae would by having a agra-cultural farm industry growing a product to be refined into many products.

Battery manufacturing produces a toxic waste, both on the manufacturing side as well as the disposal side. Algae does not, it is used in totality both as a fuel and food.
 
That post is simply a rant, I really doubt any battery industry will ever support the number of workers that the oil industry does. Plus the EPA will never allow that toxic waste to be made here, so the batteries will be made off shore by machines in China.

Algae would by having a agra-cultural farm industry growing a product to be refined into many products.

Battery manufacturing produces a toxic waste, both on the manufacturing side as well as the disposal side. Algae does not, it is used in totality both as a fuel and food.

Yep, progress is impossible, we have reached the epitome of human evolution, it's time to go extinct now.

Welcome to the result of that line of thinking. The world becomes what we believe it will become, isn't that obvious yet? Want proof that God exists and we are part of it? There's a nice piece of evidence for you.
 
The moment a 5 minute recharge, whether through electrons or hydrogen, becomes available, gasoline will no longer power future vehicles.

That's wishful thinking. This will always be run by economics.

Government can attempt to manipulate the market, but government influence on markets have a bad history - having the government prop up an industry creates a bubble which invariably bursts and causes chaos or causes people to behave in unpredicted ways to get around the governmetn influence. We've seen it so many times, I'm guessing our overall poor economic education is the only reason anyone would ever suggest it.
 
That's wishful thinking. This will always be run by economics.

Government can attempt to manipulate the market, but government influence on markets have a bad history - having the government prop up an industry creates a bubble which invariably bursts and causes chaos or causes people to behave in unpredicted ways to get around the governmetn influence. We've seen it so many times, I'm guessing our overall poor economic education is the only reason anyone would ever suggest it.

If our society continues to accept being governed by market force economics, you are correct, we will also go extinct shortly so it's irrelevant. However there is hope on the short term horizon at the LHC that may change the course of mankind in short order, because if the generate a Supersymetric partical, they will have to finally declare, "Yes, there is a superlative intelligence behind all creation."

They just turned it on the other day, it takes a while to get rolling.
 
A five minute stop every 2-3 hoirs is not acceptable. Even my pickup goes furth than that on 15 gallons. In the car, I've gone 500+ miles without stopping, much less buying chips and a drink.



Ask your wife if she would like to never have to fight a gas hose and spilling / splashing gas on herself.

Stopping for 5 minutes every 2 or 3 hours would be acceptable to all.
 
Ask your wife if she would like to never have to fight a gas hose and spilling / splashing gas on herself.

Stopping for 5 minutes every 2 or 3 hours would be acceptable to all.

A) never seen anyone spill gas while filling up a car. Gas can? Yes. Car? No.

B) too many stops, not acceptable to me, therefore not acceptable to all. Suspect I am not alone here, families are now spread all across the country.

I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, or that it's not sustainable for some folks. After all, some people in big cities don't have cars at all. But this will never take even half of the market.

Another problem: you are hit in an intersection, breaking open a battery / body panel beside your leg. What happens to you from the battery? What happens to the rescuers who trybt get you out from between several intact batteries? Suppose a broken battery is on top of you?
 
Why have 75,000 oil field jobs disappeared in the last few months? Was that part of Obama's doing, part of his personal master plant to turn us into the United States of Iran?

I'm not going political with this, but used the article to show oil industry is a huge employment provider.

Algae would be too.
 
I really believe that a battery breakthru will quickly obsolete the IC engine for cars. I haven't seen that we are there yet, but Tesla does look interesting albeit ridiculously expensive. This technology (aluminum) looks interesting, but the power density isn't even close to lithium. Presently if you have a 400 lb lithium battery in your car now, you will need up to a 2,400 lb aluminum battery to go the same distance. It's not there.
 
Any one consider how many people work in the fuel/oil/ economy. battery replacing that industry will be devastating to the unemployed numbers.

Algae on the other hand adds jobs to the industry by those farmers that will be growing the stuff. All technology is already in place. all parts and equipment is already available.

The more I read about the battery industry the less I like it with the amount of Haz-mat waist developed and the disposal requirements after use is a huge undisclosed topic.

Tom, it doesn't matter. If the battery works better then oil for personal transport will diminish greatly. The number of batteries required would go through the roof offsetting some of the job loss. The haz mat situation would work itself out, just as it has with oil. Don't forget, oil has many other uses and I still think it would be needed for heavy transport.
 
I'm not going political with this, but used the article to show oil industry is a huge employment provider.

Algae would be too.

Algae and agriculture. Agriculture has always been the back bone of the US economy from day one, it's the only reason our trade imbalance is as shallow as it is. Agriculture is what we have to bring back as the primary employer, and Urban Agriculture parlays high efficiency natural gas to electricity conversion while providing the heat, light, and carbon dioxide waste from the electric product process and turn it into vegetables and algae for all the remaining high density fuel applications like Jet A. All the rest of the gas cars can convert to LNG for a couple hundred bucks like two thirds of Australia does.

We do not need a drop of gasoline to power America, we do not need to give Saudi Arabia and the rest all our money to send hate our way. The only reason we still do this is because people are conditioned to resist change because it might cost money, but the reality is, change brings prosperity as well, and more often than not. It's failing to change that is costly, and that's the way the markets like it, because you can profit wildly when there is a crisis. Look at what people will pay for gas, what do you think they'll pay for water?

If we don't take control of this now, we're ****ed.

The problem is people aren't even willing to stop 5 minutes every 3 hours to make it happen. Americans are all about never sacrificing anything themselves, THEY should sacrafice.
 
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The durability and cost of the batteries certainly is the key issue in this. However, considering the manufacturing materials required are low cost and common, this may be a managable issue. If you can buy a new battery set every 3 years for $1000, you have a pretty viable product.

It's not just the batteries, it's the whole vehicle. While the battery is undeniably a large part of the equation, the resulting vehicle has to be larger with better performance than a Nissan Leaf or Toyota Prius and cost a whole lot less.

As far as the infrastructure, I doubt that most fueling stations have adequate electrical capacity to accommodate the additive requirements of rapidly charging multiple high-capacity batteries. That may be a relatively easy problem for the station to solve, but likely a much larger problem for the utility network.

Technology exists (or is within reach) to do a lot of things, but it's not cost-competitive with existing methods.


JKG
 
My pickup would be out of gas with 15 gallons on Interstate 80 at 75 mph in 2.6 hours.

My old truck in college went 4 hours home on the interstate with 1/8 of its 15 gallon tank left. My Ranger now also has a 15 gallon tank, and I didn't stop that often pulling a 5x12 trailer with my woodworking equipment and wood loaded in it. Really, 2.5 hours is almost no range at all. My Ranger will go round trip to the Atlanta airport, 90 minutes each way, on 3/4 tank. What kind of dinosaur truck do you drive???

To quick charge a dozen cars at the same time, the gas station will need to upgrade its electric service. For every station in town to do so, the power company will need to upgrade its distribution system and generating capacity. All power companies will need to do this, as electricity must be made.

You will not be permitted to complain about the increased truck & train traffic going to the power plants, nor increased power plant exhaust. Electric cars only move the exhaust from your car to the power plant, but also increases the amount lost in distribution.

But who am I to pee on your dreams of utopia with flashes of reality? Electric cars will obviously eliminate our reliance an fossil fuel, and air pollution will cease immediately. We will thrive on solar and wind power while tearing down all dams to free the rivers, and nuclear power plants will be shuttered and turned into museums of How Stupid We Used to Be. Extinct animals will revive, and raccoons will no longer eat the food my wife sets iut for the local abandoned cats.
 
Any one consider how many people work in the fuel/oil/ economy. battery replacing that industry will be devastating to the unemployed numbers.

Algae on the other hand adds jobs to the industry by those farmers that will be growing the stuff. All technology is already in place. all parts and equipment is already available.

The more I read about the battery industry the less I like it with the amount of Haz-mat waist developed and the disposal requirements after use is a huge undisclosed topic.

The same worries were sounded about blacksmiths and stable boys 100 years ago, but we seem tomhave found other jobs for them. My great uncle was a blacksmith who became a car mechanic. Sail makers and carpenters were devastated by the change from sail to steam, and the change from railroads to airlines also was not accompanied by large unemployment. Technological change can be disruptive, but society adapts quickly.
 
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