Altitudes on STAR

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Midlothian, TX
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KJWY - Mid-Way Regional
Take this plate for the SEAVU TWO arrival into KLAX:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00237SEAVU.PDF

Altitudes, distances and direction are noted between fixes like they are on feeder routes to an IAF. But are the altitudes noted in this manner on a STAR altitudes "to be flown", or MEAs like on an enroute chart?

Between KONZL and ENGLI, the plate notes 8000' for 4nm on a heading of 249. But the callout for KONZL has notations specifying EXACTLY 17000' and 280 knots, and the ENGLI callout is for above 16000'.

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TangoWhiskey said:
Altitudes, distances and direction are noted between fixes like they are on feeder routes to an IAF. But are the altitudes noted in this manner on a STAR altitudes "to be flown", or MEAs like on an enroute chart?
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It depends on your clearance. If you get a clearance that tells you to "descend via" an arrival you follow the altitudes on the chart yourself.

See AIM 5-4-1

1. STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures may have mandatory speeds and/or crossing altitudes published. Other STARs may have planning information depicted to inform pilots what clearances or restrictions to "expect." "Expect" altitudes/speeds are not considered STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally issued by ATC.
NOTE-
The "expect" altitudes/speeds are published so that pilots may have the information for planning purposes. These altitudes/speeds shall not be used in the event of lost communications unless ATC has specifically advised the pilot to expect these altitudes/speeds as part of a further clearance.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
14 CFR Section 91.185(c)(2)(iii).[/SIZE]
2. Pilots navigating on STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend so as to comply with all published/issued restrictions. This authorization will contain the phraseology "DESCEND VIA."
(a) Clearance to "descend via" authorizes pilots to:
(1) Vertically and laterally navigate on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP.
(2) When cleared to a waypoint depicted on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP, to descend from a previously assigned altitude at pilot's discretion to the altitude depicted for that waypoint, and once established on the depicted arrival, to navigate laterally and vertically to meet all published restrictions.
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Everskyward said:
It depends on your clearance. If you get a clearance that tells you to "descend via" an arrival you follow the altitudes on the chart yourself.

See AIM 5-4-1
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I understand that.

Question is: WHICH altitude?

At KONZL, should I be at 17000 preparing to descend to 16000; or at 14000 ready to descend to 8000?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I understand that.

Question is: WHICH altitude?

At KONZL, should I be at 17000 preparing to descend to 16000; or at 14000 ready to descend to 8000?
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The first (17 preparing to descend to 16). The 17,000 foot altitude is mandatory if given a "descend via" clearance (and 16,000 is at or above). The 8,000 notation is the MEA along the that particular route segment.
 
My problem is the mandatory 280KT at KONZL. I just can't do that!:no: And IIRC you're expected to be doing that regardless of whether they give you a "descend via" clearance or not!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I understand that.

Question is: WHICH altitude?

At KONZL, should I be at 17000 preparing to descend to 16000; or at 14000 ready to descend to 8000?
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I believe you are supposed to cross KONZL at 17000.
 
gismo said:
I believe you are supposed to cross KONZL at 17000.
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Correct. Hit KONZL at 17000, 280 KIAS, then you may descend but you have to be above 16000 at ENGLI.

8000 is the MEA for that segment, which is good to know in case ATC puts you on the STAR but specifies different altitudes.

And since I don't see "Expect to Cross" anywhere, on this STAR if you're cleared for it, you're supposed to cross at the published altitudes unless given other instructions by ATC. No "Descend via" required.
 
I know on the STARS in the Dallas area, in a recip, I obviously can't be at those higher speeds and they don't want me at those altitudes; so, they give a clearance like: be at 6,000 at FINGR for instance, no speed. So, I wonder if folks that can't comply with those altitudes are given the MEA for reference and issued a clearance like we are in the D/FW area.

Best,

Dave
 
TMetzinger said:
And since I don't see "Expect to Cross" anywhere, on this STAR if you're cleared for it, you're supposed to cross at the published altitudes unless given other instructions by ATC. No "Descend via" required.
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Tim,

This from AIM.

5-4-1. Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR), Area Navigation (RNAV) STAR, and Flight Management System Procedures (FMSP) for Arrivals
2. Pilots navigating on STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend so as to comply with all published/issued restrictions. This authorization will contain the phraseology "DESCEND VIA."

gary
 
gprellwitz said:
My problem is the mandatory 280KT at KONZL. I just can't do that!:no: And IIRC you're expected to be doing that regardless of whether they give you a "descend via" clearance or not!
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If you are in an aircraft that can't comply they will alter the arrival or not assign this arrival to you.
 
ghogue said:
Tim,

This from AIM.

5-4-1. Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR), Area Navigation (RNAV) STAR, and Flight Management System Procedures (FMSP) for Arrivals
2. Pilots navigating on STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend so as to comply with all published/issued restrictions. This authorization will contain the phraseology "DESCEND VIA."

gary
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I stand corrected, thanks!
 
Rotor&Wing said:
If you are in an aircraft that can't comply they will alter the arrival or not assign this arrival to you.
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And if they don't (say, because they're not familiar with your aircraft type), let them know you're unable to comply as soon as possible.
 
Plus they will probably get a clue from your filed airspeed.
 
Ron Levy said:
They should, but they also clear /U aircraft direct to intersections on a pretty regular basis. Doveryai, no proveryai.
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This is not an issue about clearing /U aircraft to intersections, especially in the LA basin and SoCal Approach. The last thing SoCal wants is a slow aircraft in the pipeline slowing down the system.

It's been awhile since I've been into the LA area but most Departures and Arrivals at major airports have notations for "TurboJet" and "Non-Turbojet" procedures.

I've been enroute to LAX over Kansas and had KC Center request an airspeed adjustment for entrail traffic arriving LAX. If you are already adjusting traffic a thousand miles out the last thing they want is to toss a slow airplane into the mix.
 
I've had Fort Worth departure assign a jet SID on more than one occasion. Even when I asked why I was being given a jet departure; they just said that's the clearance.

Best,

Dave
 
gprellwitz said:
My problem is the mandatory 280KT at KONZL. I just can't do that!:no: And IIRC you're expected to be doing that regardless of whether they give you a "descend via" clearance or not!
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If you cannot do 280KT at 17K MSL, you probably would not be flying the STAR. And if you cannot make the speed restrictions.. tell ATC.
 
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Dave Siciliano said:
I've had Fort Worth departure assign a jet SID on more than one occasion. Even when I asked why I was being given a jet departure; they just said that's the clearance.
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Some places will do that - it's more common in Texas (IMHO). They'll just limit you/your altitude or give you vectors once you're in radar contact. In San Antonio, the LOAs between facilities had specific handoff fixes.
 
wsuffa said:
Some places will do that - it's more common in Texas (IMHO). They'll just limit you/your altitude or give you vectors once you're in radar contact.
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Separating different speed aircraft on STARs by altitude is something that they do in various locations. Denver does it too. However, going into LAX, which was the first example, they have you sequenced and speed adjusted hundreds of miles out like R&W says. If you are not able to keep up they'll notice it. Besides most airplanes doing this arrival have normal descent speeds which are 280 or greater, unless limited by turbulence, so they would need to slow to 280 not speed up. I've never done that particular arrival but I've done others into LAX which are similar. It's a little bit different as they clear you to, "descend via the X arrival and passing [waypoint name], cleared for the ILS 25L" all in one breath.
 
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