altimeter

JOhnH

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What is the difference between the reading on my altimeter steam gauge, and the pressure altitude reading on my transponder, and why might they read 200 to 350 feet different? (1977 Cessna 172 with 180hp engine). When ATC asks for my altitude, which should I give them? And who fixes/repairs/adjusts/replaces altimeters?
 
What is the difference between the reading on my altimeter steam gauge, and the pressure altitude reading on my transponder, and why might they read 200 to 350 feet different? (1977 Cessna 172 with 180hp engine). When ATC asks for my altitude, which should I give them? And who fixes/repairs/adjusts/replaces altimeters?

Your encoding altimeter is permanently set to standard pressure, 29.92" Hg, and provides pressure altitude. It should agree with your steam gauge altimeter when that is also set to 29.92". When ATC asks your altitude they want the altitude shown by your steam gauge which should be set to the local altimeter setting, and that can differ substantially from pressure altitude.
 
What is the difference between the reading on my altimeter steam gauge, and the pressure altitude reading on my transponder, and why might they read 200 to 350 feet different? (1977 Cessna 172 with 180hp engine). When ATC asks for my altitude, which should I give them? And who fixes/repairs/adjusts/replaces altimeters?
How do you set the barometric pressure on your altimeter encoder on your transponder?

The answer is: you don't. It has a fixed 29.92 setting, and ATC applies their own compensation.

So unless the barometric pressure happens to be 29.92, the setting on the aircraft altimeter and the altitude displayed by your transponder will be different. You should report what your panel altimeter says. If you want to check your encoder, just re-set your Kollsman to 29.92.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Ok, thanks. I understand that much better now.
Another question: When I am on the ground and set my altimeter according to the reading given by ATIS, why would my altimeter read below sea level? (the airport is at 29ft above sea level). Is there an adjustment I or my A&P can make?

Some day, I hope to know enough that I won't kill myself, if I live that long.
 
In most cases, the encoder used by the transponder has a precision of 100 feet, that is the values are in hundreds of feet. Also, the encoder altitude is a pressure altitude and based on the single standard pressure of 29.92. So to the extent that the local barometric pressure is different than 29.92, there will be a difference in the altitude displayed on the altimeter and the encoding altimeter. For example, if the local barometric pressure is 30.02, a .1 inch difference higher than standard, the encoding altimeter will read 100 feet lower, at 30.12 the difference will be 200 feet, and so on. If you set the altimeter to 29.92, it should match the encoder altimeter within a hundred feet or so.

When ATC requests your altitude, you provide them with your altimeter adjusted for the proper local barometric setting. ATC compares this with the encoder altimeter value it receives from your transponder and it is corrected inside the ATC computer to display the value corrected for the local barometric setting. If the value you provided ATC differs by more than 200 feet from what they see on their radar scope, ATC will ask you to stop squawking altitude.
 
Question about this.

Does ATC's equipment (or ATC's personnel) 'adjust' the pressure altitude reported by Mode C (on their radar screen) to a local altimeter? In my experience, ATC seems to be pretty accurate with altitude callouts of unverified targets. For example, even if I am VFR without FF, I usually am listening to the appropriate ATC facility. I have often heard myself called out as traffic to other planes in the area... and the (unverified) altitude reading is always within 100 feet. That's only 0.1" Hg.



Your encoding altimeter is permanently set to standard pressure, 29.92" Hg, and provides pressure altitude. It should agree with your steam gauge altimeter when that is also set to 29.92". When ATC asks your altitude they want the altitude shown by your steam gauge which should be set to the local altimeter setting, and that can differ substantially from pressure altitude.
 
When I am on the ground and set my altimeter according to the reading given by ATIS, why would my altimeter read below sea level? (the airport is at 29ft above sea level).
Most likely cause is your altimeter is slightly out of calibration -- the tolerance limit for the biennial 91.411 test is +/- 20 feet at sea level (see Part 43, Appendix E, Table I), and "below sea level" is more than 20 feet off from 29 MSL. However, since the operational tolerance is +/- 75 feet, you may still be good to go within the FAA's recommended parameters (depending on just how far below sea level it's reading) -- see AIM section 7-2-3. However, I'm not sure I'd be so happy flying an ILS to mins with an altimeter that read 75 feet high. So, what to do?

One thing to check if your altimeter error is larger than usual is the elevation of your parking spot versus the field elevation. Field elevation is the highest point on the operating surface of the airport (runways, taxiways, etc), so depending on the airport topography, with the reported altimeter setting, you may often see a lower altitude on your altimeter than field elevation. For example, the south ramp at Pittsburgh Int'l (KPIT) is about 100 feet lower than the field elevation (measured at the approach end of Runway 10L) due to the slope of the airport surface.

In addition, if you find your altimeter is consistently off by a fixed amount, consider noting that error and adjusting all altimeter settings accordingly. For example, if it always reads 40 feet high, then subtract .04 from every altimeter setting and put that in the Kollsman window. That's why there was a little "+.04" written on the panel of our Cheetah next to the altimeter -- it always read 40 feet low.

Is there an adjustment I or my A&P can make?
Other than the input correction mentioned just above, no -- nobody can legally tinker with an altimeter except a certified repair station with an instrument rating.
 
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Does ATC's equipment (or ATC's personnel) 'adjust' the pressure altitude reported by Mode C (on their radar screen) to a local altimeter?
Yes, it does so automatically. There will be an altimeter setting readout at the controller's position, and that's the setting that controller's display is using, and the one the controller will read to all aircraft in that sector. Note that this varies from sector to sector, so each controller may read you a different number. Further, with a big enough sector, there may be different settings within that same sector, so the controller may read you one setting while reading another to someone a distance away.
 
Most likely cause is your altimeter is slightly out of calibration
another is that ATIS are usually updated once an hour if pressure is changing rapidly you can see 40' variations between settings.

In addition, if you find your altimeter is consistently off by a fixed amount, consider noting that error and adjusting all altimeter settings accordingly. For example, if it always reads 40 feet high, then add .04 to every altimeter setting and put that in the Kollsman window. That's why there was a little "+.04" written on the panel of our Cheetah next to the altimeter.

I think that's backwards, Ron (or I am). If baro setting is 29.92 and altimeter reads 140 when you want it to read 100 you would change the Kollsman window to 29.88, wouldn't you?

Joe
 
When I am on the ground and set my altimeter according to the reading given by ATIS, why would my altimeter read below sea level? (the airport is at 29ft above sea level). Is there an adjustment I or my A&P can make?

Several possible reasons. The field elevation is the highest point on a runway, the elevation at your location could be different. The local pressure may have changed a bit since the ATIS was recorded. Your altimeter itself may be a bit off. Nonstandard temperature also affects the altitude but to a much smaller degree than pressure.
 
Does ATC's equipment (or ATC's personnel) 'adjust' the pressure altitude reported by Mode C (on their radar screen) to a local altimeter?

Pressure altitude provided by the encoder is adjusted for local pressure by the radar data processing computer. How it's done varies with the type of equipment and type of facility. Some terminal systems require ATC to enter the local altimeter setting, in others it's automated. ARTCC airspace is divided into hundreds of Radar Sort Boxes, each RSB is assigned a specific source for the local altimeter setting.
 
I think that's backwards, Ron (or I am). If baro setting is 29.92 and altimeter reads 140 when you want it to read 100 you would change the Kollsman window to 29.88, wouldn't you?
OK, let's work it out -- "high to low, look out below." If the altimeter reads 140 when you're at 100, you're going to go low, i.e., you'd be in that "high to low" situation where your altimeter setting is too high for conditions, so you'd have to turn it down. Yes, you're right -- it would be -.04 in that situation. Earlier post fixed.
 
Nonstandard temperature also affects the altitude but to a much smaller degree than pressure.
Nonstandard temparature has no effect when you're at the same elevation where the pressure is measured (i.e., on the field). The effect increases with the altitude differential. See Table 7-2-3 in AIM Section 7-2-3. Unless the elevation where you're parked varies dramatically from where the pressure was measured, this won't change what you see when setting the altimeter on the ramp. Even on the south ramp at Pittsburgh almost 100 feet below the field el, it would have to be below -30C before the error became noticeable, and then only if the ASOS were up at that high point (which it's not -- it's much closer to the south ramp's elevation). Where this error becomes an issue is when flying nonprecision approaches with high MDA's in extremely cold conditions, which is why Canada requires pilots to have this chart in the cockpit in certain conditions/locations. In those situations, the effect can potentially drive you into an obstruction if not accounted for.
 
I was told by a former instructor that oil on the transponder antenna can throw off the altitude reading.
 
I was told by a former instructor that oil on the transponder antenna can throw off the altitude reading.
I can understand how oil on the antenna could absorb enough signal energy so it wasn't getting out enough to be received ("No mode C observed"), but not how it could alter the digital data in the transmission. Perhaps you misunderstood your instructor, or s/he failed to ensure the point was made clearly.
 
Nonstandard temparature has no effect when you're at the same elevation where the pressure is measured (i.e., on the field). The effect increases with the altitude differential. See Table 7-2-3 in AIM Section 7-2-3. Unless the elevation where you're parked varies dramatically from where the pressure was measured, this won't change what you see when setting the altimeter on the ramp. Even on the south ramp at Pittsburgh almost 100 feet below the field el, it would have to be below -30C before the error became noticeable, and then only if the ASOS were up at that high point (which it's not -- it's much closer to the south ramp's elevation). Where this error becomes an issue is when flying nonprecision approaches with high MDA's in extremely cold conditions, which is why Canada requires pilots to have this chart in the cockpit in certain conditions/locations. In those situations, the effect can potentially drive you into an obstruction if not accounted for.

Say what? Either nonstandard temperature has an effect on indicated altitude or it doesn't. The AIM says it does, is the AIM wrong?
 
Say what? Either nonstandard temperature has an effect on indicated altitude or it doesn't. The AIM says it does, is the AIM wrong?
I think what Ron is saying is that non-standard temperature has the same effect on the calibrated altimeter used to report the baro setting as it does on the altimeter in your airplane.

Look at jesseweather.com and see the diurnal variation in altimeter settings.

Joe
 
I think what Ron is saying is that non-standard temperature has the same effect on the calibrated altimeter used to report the baro setting as it does on the altimeter in your airplane.
Joe thinks right. Hence, non-standard temperature would not cause the OP's problem stated in post #4. Further, since the pressure source is the same, it would not change the difference between the encoder altitude and the altimeter altitude as queried in the first post.
 
I think what Ron is saying is that non-standard temperature has the same effect on the calibrated altimeter used to report the baro setting as it does on the altimeter in your airplane.

Then he's assumed facts not in evidence, again. The question was, "When I am on the ground and set my altimeter according to the reading given by ATIS, why would my altimeter read below sea level? (the airport is at 29ft above sea level)." The altimeter setting source was not identified.
 
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Where do you think the pressure sensor for the ATIS altimeter setting might be other than on the field? And do you think the altimeter used for the ATIS isn't calibrated?

Sheesh.
 
Where do you think the pressure sensor for the ATIS altimeter setting might be other than on the field? And do you think the altimeter used for the ATIS isn't calibrated?

Sheesh.

What makes you think an altimeter is used for the ATIS altimeter setting? I think the source more likely to be ASOS, AWOS, or DASI.

By the way, if a calibrated altimeter is used for the ATIS altimeter setting, you're unlikely to be at the same elevation where the pressure is measured (i.e., the control tower).
 
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I was told by a former instructor that oil on the transponder antenna can throw off the altitude reading.

Your instructor is close, but the statement needs to be modified, oil on the transponder antenna can impair reception by the ground. The primary affect is caused by a detuning of the antenna and slightly changing the frequency being transmitted. This should affect both the squawk code and the altimeter value.

The frequency shift doesn't change the squawk code or altitude value. It just makes it more difficult to be received.
 
What makes you think an altimeter is used for the ATIS altimeter setting? I think the source more likely to be ASOS, AWOS, or DASI.

If an altimeter isn't used, then what instrument is?
 
I said "pressure sensor."

Sheesh again.

You sure did, you also provided a description of that "pressure sensor" used for the ATIS.

Where do you think the pressure sensor for the ATIS altimeter setting might be other than on the field? And do you think the altimeter used for the ATIS isn't calibrated?

Sheesh.
 
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Several possible reasons. The field elevation is the highest point on a runway, the elevation at your location could be different. The local pressure may have changed a bit since the ATIS was recorded. Your altimeter itself may be a bit off. Nonstandard temperature also affects the altitude but to a much smaller degree than pressure.

The effect of nonstandard temperature on altimeter error is proportional to the difference between the altitude of the reference station and the airplane in question. When both are at field elevation temperature induced altitude error is pretty much in the noise. Of course you did say "to a much smaller degree" ;)
 
What makes you think an altimeter is used for the ATIS altimeter setting? I think the source more likely to be ASOS, AWOS, or DASI.

By the way, if a calibrated altimeter is used for the ATIS altimeter setting, you're unlikely to be at the same elevation where the pressure is measured (i.e., the control tower).

It doesn't really matter what the source of the ATIS altimeter information is, what matters is where that source is. And unless that source's elevation differs from the airplane's altimeter by a couple hundred feet or more the effect of any plausible non-standard temperature will not be discernible.
 
The effect of nonstandard temperature on altimeter error is proportional to the difference between the altitude of the reference station and the airplane in question. When both are at field elevation temperature induced altitude error is pretty much in the noise. Of course you did say "to a much smaller degree" ;)

Of course.
 
Universal Gas Law says it does too... PV=nRT
I'd like to know how the Universal Gas Law would explain an altimeter set to the pressure setting obtained from another altimeter at the same elevation and temperature (i.e., the one in your plane sitting on the ramp versus the ASOS/AWOS/other source on the same field) reading a different altitude from the reference altimeter other than an internal error of one of the altimeters.

I don't care how hot or cold it is at the airport -- absent a malfunction of either your altimeter or the pressure setting source on that airport, the actual ambient temperature will not perceptibly affect the comparison between your altimeter reading and the elevation of the place where you're parked. Yes, in theory, if you're parked 20 feet higher than the pressure source, temperatures of more than 40 degrees or so off standard might result in a couple of feet of difference, but nobody can read their altimeter that closely, and the thing's only calibrated to within 20 feet to start with. Temperature just is not a factor in determining altimeter accuracy based on local altimeter setting when you're parked on the airport where that setting was determined.
 
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What is the difference between the reading on my altimeter steam gauge, and the pressure altitude reading on my transponder, and why might they read 200 to 350 feet different? (1977 Cessna 172 with 180hp engine). When ATC asks for my altitude, which should I give them? And who fixes/repairs/adjusts/replaces altimeters?

John,
You may have a problem with the altimeter being out of calibration. Any instrument shop or maybe a mechanic (I'm not sure about the rules regarding instrument repair nor am I interested in debating them :crazy:) can reset most altimeters. There's a release in the altimeter that allows the hands to be set separately from the barometric pressure in the kollsman window. It can be done from the front of the altimeter with the altimeter still in the panel. I suppose if it needs more work than that it would need to be removed from the panel.
Dave
 
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