AirVenture NOTAM Survey

[john smith]

Should pilots be violated upon parking their aircraft after landing at OSH during AirVenture for violation(s) of the NOTAM?

Pilots choosing to ignore the terms and procedures of the AirVenture NOTAM are increasing each year. It is getting to be worse than Sun N Fun. If the FAA does not begin issuing violations, how else will the situation be brought back under control?
Each misdeed seemingly begets another in retaliation.

 

[jtheune]

While it's a nice idea and at times I would really like to see it happen, there are not enough FAA employees to check all the planes coming in to Osh. I would like to see the controllers take down the tail numbers of the more ridiculous ones and have them spoken too. That might make it manageable.

 

[Geico266]

It would be nice if only experimental aircraft (EAA = Experimental Aircraft Association) would be allowed in, but I don't see that happening either.

Having said that, I see no need to enforce NOTAM's. If you do then you have 10,000 little NOTAM Nazis running around squeeling on everyone.

Take care of the guy behind the guy infront of you and look out for all the rest.

 

[steingar]

It would be nice if only experimental aircraft (EAA = Experimental Aircraft Association) would be allowed in, but I don't see that happening either.

Then the event would be a only a fraction of its current size, which would change the experience dramatically. Same thing if you start handing out violations.

 

[Geico266]

Then the event would be a only a fraction of its current size, which would change the experience dramatically. Same thing if you start handing out violations.

You are probably correct on both counts, but a mass arrival of Bonanzas is not why I go to OSH.

 

[docmirror]

You are probably correct on both counts, but a mass arrival of Bonanzas is not why I go to OSH.

Interesting that you bring that up. the B2Osh arrival is carefully coordinated with the FAA and with the OSH controllers. You may not like it, but they follow the rules(albeit special rules) to the letter. Never an infraction.

I wouldn't like to see more oversight by the FAA at OSH. Unless it's blatantly unsafe, give it a break. I remember going to Osh way back and there were no hard and fast rules to follow, everyone got along, some guys were dopes, but they didn't cause the problems that the rules would solve anyway.

 

[vontresc]

I remember someone suggesting raising the price of camping by $200. Refundable upon showing a NOTAM booklet.

 

[Shipoke]

I remember someone suggesting raising the price of camping by $200. Refundable upon showing a NOTAM booklet.

Well Pete that might work ,BUT having the NOTAN and obeying it is a differant store. IMHO wouldn't solve anything.
I flew in there couple times by myself and with Ed G. and never had a problem.

Dave G.

 

[gismo]

Interesting that you bring that up. the B2Osh arrival is carefully coordinated with the FAA and with the OSH controllers. You may not like it, but they follow the rules(albeit special rules) to the letter. Never an infraction.

I wouldn't like to see more oversight by the FAA at OSH. Unless it's blatantly unsafe, give it a break. I remember going to Osh way back and there were no hard and fast rules to follow, everyone got along, some guys were dopes, but they didn't cause the problems that the rules would solve anyway.

I wouldn't want to see any enforcement at Airventure either, there's a lot of non-standard procedure there and even the controllers don't blindly follow the NOTAM (flexability is important on both sides) so it would be rather unfair to try and hold every pilot to the letter of the law. What I would like to see is someone working alongside the controllers taking notes about any problems they see along with the N#(s) involved. Then someone could seek out the pilots involved for a friendly chat attempting to prevent a recurrance. Sounds like a job for the FAASTeam. Of course there'd be some logistic issues, like tracking down the pilots but maybe that could be dealt with as part of the registration process.

 

[tonycondon]

and i suppose everyone should have to roll over a scale at the hold short line too?

 

[kyleb]

My vote is that if you're obviously clueless on the arrival/landing, someone touches base with you during the taxi phase and verifies that you have the Notam in your posession. If you don't have it, you get violated. Period, end of story.

If you do have the Notam, you get a quiz - "Why do you think we're having this talk? Etc." If you're clueless, you get violated.

The bottom line is that even good pilots occasionally mess up, and with 10-15k people landing at Osh (or 5k at SnF) a few good pilots are gonna have "oopses", which can be forgiven if they are aware of the problem, its cause, etc. The truly dangerous people are the ones buzzing around without a clue as to what they are supposed to do.

 

[SCCutler]

I'm with Lance, an opportunity for a little safety counseling. Make it a positive thing.

 

[Geico266]

I remember going to Osh way back and there were no hard and fast rules to follow,

Okay Doc, mt first "Oskosh" was in Rockford, IL. Anyone else been to Rockford when the EAA held there flyin there?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My vote is that if you're obviously clueless on the arrival/landing, someone touches base with you during the taxi phase and verifies that you have the Notam in your posession. If you don't have it, you get violated. Period, end of story.

If you do have the Notam, you get a quiz - "Why do you think we're having this talk? Etc." If you're clueless, you get violated.

The bottom line is that even good pilots occasionally mess up, and with 10-15k people landing at Osh (or 5k at SnF) a few good pilots are gonna have "oopses", which can be forgiven if they are aware of the problem, its cause, etc. The truly dangerous people are the ones buzzing around without a clue as to what they are supposed to do.

Yes. What Kyle said.

Most of the violations I notice at OSH are *not* the "oops" variety. They are the "Blatant disregard for any pilots, pax, controllers other than themselves" variety. For example, the Luscombe that landed on 27 two years ago, not talking to anyone, while we were all landing on 9. And then proceeded to take off directly into landing traffic once he figured out he was in trouble! Last year, I heard and saw far more violations than I've ever seen before, and more people calling in COMPLETELY clueless as to what was contained in the NOTAM. I think I heard at least three people call the tower as if nothing particularly special was going on that week. You know, "Oshkosh tower, Cirrus 1234X is 7 miles south, inbound for landing." "Cirrus 1234X, Oshkosh Tower, please fly the Fisk arrival." "Uhhh, tower, 1234X, what's that?" (or "Yeah, um, we, uh, left the NOTAM behind, can you tell us what to do?") The controllers are the best of the best, which means they are WAY too patient with some of these jerks.

However, I think that the most frequently violated part of the NOTAM is the departure. People always freak about the arrival, but once they're in, they enjoy the show, and then leave without a care in the world. It's bad enough that when I take someone new into the show while they're landing/departing on 27, I point out that they need to help me watch extra carefully for traffic that departs 27 and does not remain at or below 1300 feet until clear of the delta, meaning that they fly RIGHT through the arrival path.

I am SOOOOOOO sick of idiots up there. Enforcement needs to be stepped up.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I remember someone suggesting raising the price of camping by $200. Refundable upon showing a NOTAM booklet.

I would support that rule change.

In my 26 years of attending the fly-in, I've seen some incredibly stupid piloting -- nearly ALL of it related to people too arrogant (and that's what it is, really) to be bothered with reading the NOTAM.

It's the busiest airspace in the world -- yet it's incredibly easy to navigate, if you only follow a few simple rules spelled out in the NOTAM. People who do not follow the rules in the NOTAM present a clear and present danger to the rest of us. Blatant violators (you know -- the ones who answer "Notam? What Notam?" to the controllers) should be violated upon landing, or at the very least told to leave and not come back until they have read and understood the NOTAM.

If that keeps some people on the ground, so be it. Quite frankly, we probably didn't want those folks flying around OSH anyway.