Airspace questions

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napoleonpp

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napoleonpp
I am a fairly new helicopter pilot in the Military and slightly confused about airspace. Most of my flying has only been staying within the local area so it's from a lack of experience. I understand that the faded magenta circle means that Class E starts at 700' AGL, unless otherwise stated. Outside of there it starts at 1,200' AGL. Below both of these is Class G airspace. Most surface Class G airports don't have a control tower and only have a CTAF frequency, is this a correct statement?

So let's say I'm taking out of one airport to go to another. I'm not going to transition through any Bravo, Charlie or Delta Airspace. I'm only flying from one faded magenta airport to another. I wouldn't have to radio call for any flight following, transition calls or anything in between right? I'm just trying to get th basics down in despite of my lack of experience. I appreciate any input.
 
napoleonpp said:
I am a fairly new helicopter pilot in the Military and slightly confused about airspace. Most of my flying has only been staying within the local area so it's from a lack of experience. I understand that the faded magenta circle means that Class E starts at 700' AGL, unless otherwise stated. Outside of there it starts at 1,200' AGL. Below both of these is Class G airspace. Most surface Class G airports don't have a control tower and only have a CTAF frequency, is this a correct statement?

So let's say I'm taking out of one airport to go to another. I'm not going to transition through any Bravo, Charlie or Delta Airspace. I'm only flying from one faded magenta airport to another. I wouldn't have to radio call for any flight following, transition calls or anything in between right? I'm just trying to get th basics down in despite of my lack of experience. I appreciate any input.
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Correct.
Only position reports.

Flight following highly recommended but essentially you could do it all with no radio calls at all as you are not required to have a radio for the situation you describe.

Edit: That said, Learning to use FF is a major benefit to you.
 
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napoleonpp said:
I am a fairly new helicopter pilot in the Military and slightly confused about airspace. Most of my flying has only been staying within the local area so it's from a lack of experience. I understand that the faded magenta circle means that Class E starts at 700' AGL, unless otherwise stated. Outside of there it starts at 1,200' AGL. Below both of these is Class G airspace. Most surface Class G airports don't have a control tower and only have a CTAF frequency, is this a correct statement?

So let's say I'm taking out of one airport to go to another. I'm not going to transition through any Bravo, Charlie or Delta Airspace. I'm only flying from one faded magenta airport to another. I wouldn't have to radio call for any flight following, transition calls or anything in between right? I'm just trying to get th basics down in despite of my lack of experience. I appreciate any input.
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Since you're military (assume Army?) what are your standard procedures for various airspaces? What does your training material say?
 
I've only used Flight Following one time and that was almost right out of flight school. When using Flight Following, they will just tell you when to turn and to what heading until you get to your destination correct?
 
murphey said:
Since you're military (assume Army?) what are your standard procedures for various airspaces? What does your training material say?
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Are you referring to our VFR minimums or what? Yes I am Army
 
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napoleonpp said:
I've only used Flight Following one time and that was almost right out of flight school. When using Flight Following, they will just tell you when to turn and to what heading until you get to your destination correct?
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No, flight following doesn't guide you to your destination. You have to do your own navigation.
 
napoleonpp said:
I've only used Flight Following one time and that was almost right out of flight school. When using Flight Following, they will just tell you when to turn and to what heading until you get to your destination correct?
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No.
If you are in class Bravo, yes.

Just enroute along the way, they will ask you to let them know your plans.
They are there to let you know about other traffic.

Here, read this:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77859
 
We must have been in Class B then because I could have swore I remember them giving us headings. Although that was a long time ago so may be wrong, or could have been just for aircraft separation. My aircraft is only rated for VFR, although will be IFR soon. I'll definitely read through the link. Thanks for the help!
 
napoleonpp said:
We must have been in Class B then because I could have swore I remember them giving us headings. Although that was a long time ago so may be wrong, or could have been just for aircraft separation. My aircraft is only rated for VFR, although will be IFR soon. I'll definitely read through the link. Thanks for the help!
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Sure, and to clarify...
You will get vectors in class B, C, D airspace, not just B.

If you are talking to approach (B, C) or Tower (D), they will give you instructions.

If you are out in the E and talking to center, they will mostly ask you what is your preferred heading, altitude, etc but they will likely not give you a lot of direct instructions with the exception of times when there is another aircraft that you don't have visual on. "fly heading 022 to avoid traffic"
 
napoleonpp said:
I've only used Flight Following one time and that was almost right out of flight school. When using Flight Following, they will just tell you when to turn and to what heading until you get to your destination correct?[/QUOTE

As has been said, no. Flight Following is really a misnomer. Look it up in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. It exists to assist you in seeing and avoiding other traffic. They won't give you turns and headings to guide you to your destination unless you request it which basically means you gotta say you're lost. They will give you turns and headings to separate you from other traffic when it's required.
In Class B it is required to separate VFR traffic from both VFR and IFR traffic that weigh more than 19,000 lbs and all turbojets by 500 feet vertically or 1 1/2 miles. If the traffic weighs less than 19,000 lbs it's 500 feet vertically or Target Resolution, meaning the targets can't touch. There are some exceptions to the target resolution rule with some of the newer Radars.
In Class C, VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft by 500 feet vertically or target resolution. There is no separation requirement from other VFR traffic.
In TRSA's VFR aircraft are separated from participating VFR, and IFR aircraft by 500 feet vertically or target resolution. Unlike C and B pilots are not required to get a clearance and/or establish communication to be in a TRSA so don't think you are being separated from all traffic in there.
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Read FAR 91 for the airspace requirements. Go to chap 5 in the AIM under pilot / controller responsibilities. Those should help in understanding what you are to do when it comes to operating in those areas.

If you're in progression, it's something your IP / SP should have no problem explaining to you as well. Would be covered in the crew brief if you're doing a X country. Good luck.
 
I really appreciate the help. I used to have the AIM on my tablet but I guess something happened to it. I'll definitely re-download it. I'm through progression. I haven't messed with airspace for probably more than a year. Easy to do when all of my flights have been pretty much in the flight pattern. One of those things I sadly let fall to the side because I got more caught up in the aircraft systems, tactics, gunnery, etc. thanks again for the help!
 
napoleonpp said:
We must have been in Class B then because I could have swore I remember them giving us headings. Although that was a long time ago so may be wrong, or could have been just for aircraft separation. My aircraft is only rated for VFR, although will be IFR soon. I'll definitely read through the link. Thanks for the help!
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Sounds like you might have been doing a PAR approach if they were giving you vectors like that.
 
napoleonpp said:
I really appreciate the help. I used to have the AIM on my tablet but I guess something happened to it. I'll definitely re-download it. I'm through progression. I haven't messed with airspace for probably more than a year. Easy to do when all of my flights have been pretty much in the flight pattern. One of those things I sadly let fall to the side because I got more caught up in the aircraft systems, tactics, gunnery, etc. thanks again for the help!
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Check your TACSOP / local regs as well. Ours had a requirement to flight follow with either ATC, flight ops or range radio. Once you start knocking out a few X country trips you'll get a better understanding of the NAS.
 
To your questions:

1) If there is an operating airport control tower then by definition it is at least a Class Delta.

2) You're correct, you do not have to speak to anyone if you do not enter Class A, B, C, D, or other special use marked airspace. If you are in Class Echo, be especially alert to traffic if intersecting Victor airways.

As alluded to previously, flight following is actually simply VFR traffic advisories on a workload-permitting basis. They ain't the boss of you and if you don't like what they're saying then you just say "terminating flight following, see ya".

You would, of course, as you near your uncontrolled destination airport; monitor CTAF, get advisories over Unicom if available, listen to automated weather if available, make your position and intentions known, and call out your positions in the pattern and while taxiing.
 
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Also worth noting that at helicopter altitudes, radar services provided by ATC under flight following can be quite spotty.
 
alfadog said:
To your questions:

1) If there is an operating airport control tower then by definition it is at least a Class Delta.
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INCORRECT. If this was true, 91.126 and 91.127 wouldn't exist.
 
flyingron said:
INCORRECT. If this was true, 91.126 and 91.127 wouldn't exist.
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Can you please provide an example of an airport, not a transition area or other extension, having an operating control tower that is not at least a Class Delta? Please leave out special temporary situations at air shows and the like.

I am always happy to be corrected and learn something new.
 
alfadog said:
Can you please provide an example of an airport, not a transition area or other extension, having an operating control tower that is not at least a Class Delta? Please leave out special temporary situations at air shows and the like.

I am always happy to be corrected and learn something new.
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LCQ (Lake City FL)
 
Interesting. I stand corrected.

Edit: found the below. He uses the same example of Lake City so that makes me wonder how common this is. But it obviously occurs.

"Not all airports with an operating control tower will have Class D airspace (Lake City Gateway, FL)
These airports do not have weather reporting which is a requirement for surface based controlled airspace."

And another:

"Class D airspace surrounds airports with operating control towers and weather reporting service that are not superseded by more restrictive Class B or C airspace." (emphasis added)

So I learn something new.
 
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The truth is that a tower only requires a building (often provided by the local municipality) and some controllers (FAA employees, contract, or NFCT). A class D (as with any surface area) takes a rulemaking activity and it won't happen unless there is both an instrument procedure there and weather observation. As pointed out, there are certainly "blue" airports on the charts that have no surface areas around them.
 
alfadog said:
Can you please provide an example of an airport, not a transition area or other extension, having an operating control tower that is not at least a Class Delta? Please leave out special temporary situations at air shows and the like.

I am always happy to be corrected and learn something new.
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Houston Executive...same deal....class E towered Airport...I find this sort of interesting thread as an Army Aviator for 24 years I was weak in Airspace Knowledge for years as we never operated in the civilian world much and rare to talk to civilian ATC...then again I was a gun guy and we never went in the clouds much until the AH-64A and then they ended that after a few years...
 
alfadog said:
To your questions:

1) If there is an operating airport control tower then by definition it is at least a Class Delta.
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This is essentially true, but there are a few weird airports that are not at least class D but do have a control tower. Weird, I know.
 
PPC1052 said:
This is essentially true, but there are a few weird airports that are not at least class D but do have a control tower. Weird, I know.
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No weather reporting capability, see prior posts.
 
evapilotaz said:
What Army Helicopter are you flying that is not IFR Certified?
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Just for reference Unless you were in a UH-1, a UH-60 or 47 you did not fly IFR In the Army Rotor wing except on an annual check ride and that was under VFR conditions...OH-6, OH-58 Series, AH-1 Series. AH-64, short time we could but like a Cobra had only a single NDB.

All we had for emergency IMC recovery in those Airframes and it was an emergency with a single NDB and maybe a PAR.

Gun/Scout Guys basically were not comfortable in the clouds...
 
evapilotaz said:
What Army Helicopter are you flying that is not IFR Certified?
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OH-58 has never been IFR certified. They file but must remain VMC. They're pretty much done in service so most likely the OP is AH-64. As Warlock said above, they are extremely limited in what they could do in the past. Once the OP transitions to a Block III Apache, he'll have a fully instrument capable aircraft just like his Chinook/ Black Hawk counterparts. Even then, he won't be flying that much instruments because it just doesn't work for their attack mission.
 
In 20 + years of flying mostly Scouts/Guns for the Army I think I might have logged 50 hrs. of instrument time (Non Simulator)...
 
Warlock said:
In 20 + years of flying mostly Scouts/Guns for the Army I think I might have logged 50 hrs. of instrument time (Non Simulator)...
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That's really not that bad. In the IE course, they made it known that the 58 & 64 guys weren't that strong on instruments. It showed but it was also understandable considering the mission and the limits of the aircraft.

Real world it's not that important even for 60s & 47s. Does you no good to have instrument capability when operating in the R area. Just like in the last 2 wars, there was no low altitude IFR structure there. Even if there was, you can't shoot some GPS approach to some mountain COP while IMC...but I would have like to have tried.:yesnod:
 
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