Airport/Facility Feedback on AirNav

[airnav]

Do you really think AirNav has a policy that even considers whether the price reported includes tax? It is assumed that it does. Should AirNav now call every FBO to ask how they report prices? Ludicrous.

We do have such a policy, and we do call every FBO. If you guys find one that is publishing prices without all taxes please report to us asap. Posting a comment about it is probably the best, our "comments police" people will read it and catch it and educate the FBO.

 

[ScottM]

No no no, don't do that. You run afoul of rule #1, "Comments must be representative of a recent actual or prospective customer experience". Scott's experience is no longer recent. However, if Scott wants to instruct us to strike out of the comment the part about the fuel price, we would be glad to publish the rest of the comment, including his parking experience. Or if Scott were to somehow prove or help us prove that he paid over $5/gal (including taxes), we would not only refund him the difference but also reinstate the entire comment.

Fine. If you still have the comment publish it without the price reference. As I said two year ago I don't have the receipt, I doubt the FBO has the record. Had that been offered to me two years ago AirNav would not have left such a bad taste in my mouth and it would made AirNav not appear to be catering to the wishes of an FBO that wanted to repress negative comments.

To me this was never about the fuel price. It was always about repression of negative comments on AirNav about paying FBOs. I still believe that too. You will not convince me otherwise.

 

[ScottM]

Why is it so damned difficult for them to quote an out of the pump price? I still say it is deceiving or dishonest not to do so.

You got me.

But even though AirNav guy is making a 100% guarantee that all the prices include sales tax I cannot help but wonder if all FBOs are really doing that. How can AirNav police that? I would not expect them to either.

I just looked at one airport that I frequent a lot. I paid $3.80 +7% ($4.07) sales tax a couple of weeks ago. This airport does not pump a lot of fuel and their AirNav price is currently listed as $3.99/gal. Maybe they got a new batch in in the intervening weeks, I don't know. Nor am I going to rat them out either, I like this airport and they are a small mom and pop operation and the last thing they need is AirNav guy annoying them with phone calls, emails, etc. threatening them with his rule violations and demands to prove what their prices were/are.

 

[ScottM]

We do have such a policy, and we do call every FBO. If you guys find one that is publishing prices without all taxes please report to us asap. Posting a comment about it is probably the best, our "comments police" people will read it and catch it and educate the FBO.

But you better have all the documentation because the first thing will be for AirNav to label you as a liar and remove err 'suspend' your comment.

 

[ScottM]

The AOPA Airport Directory (online) allows one to print a "kneeboard format" airport summary, which I find very useful when I am preparing a trip package. Since you already have all the data available, why not make an option to prepare and print something like this from an Airnav Airport Data screen. You could, of course, include paid advertiser information on the summary (key FBOs, etc.), as long as it is done in a way to not interfere with the informational usefulness.

I used to print off those airport kneeboard things. Now I just print off the airport layout from the IAPs if I don't have a IAP book for that airport in the plane. Since it is so easy to get those online these days I never felt that the AOPA format did much more.

What do you find more useful about them?

 

[gprellwitz]

You got me.

But even though AirNav guy is making a 100% guarantee that all the prices include sales tax I cannot help but wonder if all FBOs are really doing that. How can AirNav police that? I would not expect them to either.

I just looked at one airport that I frequent a lot. I paid $3.80 +7% ($4.07) sales tax a couple of weeks ago. This airport does not pump a lot of fuel and their AirNav price is currently listed as $3.99/gal. Maybe they got a new batch in in the intervening weeks, I don't know. Nor am I going to rat them out either, I like this airport and they are a small mom and pop operation and the last thing they need is AirNav guy annoying them with phone calls, emails, etc. threatening them with his rule violations and demands to prove what their prices were/are.

I'm actually guilty of that by mistake. One time, many years ago, trying to be a good Samaritan, I updated the price at my local airport, but failed to put the price after taxes. I (rightfully) caught hell for it from the FBO manager. (Actually, she was telling me that someone had modified their price, and I fessed up that it was me.) So mistakes do happen.

But they do offer you a mechanism to update the price yourself (or at least did.) Just be careful not to make the same boneheaded mistake I did!

 

[airnav]

Fine. If you still have the comment publish it without the price reference.

Done as requested.

 

[airnav]

You got me.

But even though AirNav guy is making a 100% guarantee that all the prices include sales tax I cannot help but wonder if all FBOs are really doing that. How can AirNav police that? I would not expect them to either.

I just looked at one airport that I frequent a lot. I paid $3.80 +7% ($4.07) sales tax a couple of weeks ago. This airport does not pump a lot of fuel and their AirNav price is currently listed as $3.99/gal. Maybe they got a new batch in in the intervening weeks, I don't know. Nor am I going to rat them out either, I like this airport and they are a small mom and pop operation and the last thing they need is AirNav guy annoying them with phone calls, emails, etc. threatening them with his rule violations and demands to prove what their prices were/are.

Please do rat them out. The easiest way to do that is to enter on AirNav the price with all taxes. Please remember to set the date to the date you visited (the form defaults to today's date, but if you purchased a few days ago please run the date backwards).

 

[airnav]

But you better have all the documentation because the first thing will be for AirNav to label you as a liar and remove err 'suspend' your comment.

Absolutely! What our people love to do the most is harass others and destroy their work.

 

[ScottM]

I'm actually guilty of that by mistake. One time, many years ago, trying to be a good Samaritan, I updated the price at my local airport, but failed to put the price after taxes. I (rightfully) caught hell for it from the FBO manager. (Actually, she was telling me that someone had modified their price, and I fessed up that it was me.) So mistakes do happen.

But they do offer you a mechanism to update the price yourself (or at least did.) Just be careful not to make the same boneheaded mistake I did!

I can't help but wonder if I have done that myself. Especially the summer before last when fuel prices were going through the roof. I may have just looked down and entered the pre-tax price. I think it is safe to say that reality is that there are fuel prices on AirNav that do not include taxes. As we have shown it is possible.

 

[Everskyward]

All taxes included. FBO has no choice.

Great. My suggestion would be to display that fact somewhere on the page with the fuel prices so that the customer knows it too.

 

[gismo]

We do have such a policy, and we do call every FBO. If you guys find one that is publishing prices without all taxes please report to us asap. Posting a comment about it is probably the best, our "comments police" people will read it and catch it and educate the FBO.

I searched a couple Airnav airport pages and couldn't find anything that indicates the prices are supposed to include any/all taxes. I think it would be useful to mention that on each and every airport page that shows prices.

I did find that there is mention of including taxes on the update prices pages.

 

[jason]

But you better have all the documentation because the first thing will be for AirNav to label you as a liar and remove err 'suspend' your comment.

He didn't call you a liar, Scott. But that didn't stop you from calling him one. He said that he asked you for proof of your claims and you didn't provide it to him. If he asked you for a receipt to prove your claims and you didn't (or couldn't) provide one that's not his fault.

Frankly, I think Paulo is handling your temper tantrum very well and I applaud him for his temperament throughout this conversation.

 

[ScottM]

He didn't call you a liar, Scott. But that didn't stop you from calling him one. He said that he asked you for proof of your claims and you didn't provide it to him. If he asked you for a receipt to prove your claims and you didn't (or couldn't) provide one that's not his fault.

Frankly, I think Paulo is handling your temper tantrum very well and I applaud him for his temperament throughout this conversation.

Whatever Jason, you know everything.

I am still waiting for this one to be addressed from this thread

I wrote a complaint about an FBO in Davenport, IA that tried to charge me $25 fee for parking for 3 hours! They didn't even touch the plane! My comments were deleted because the lineman thought I was a twin, I was flying an RV-10! This should have been even more reason to leave negative comments, but AirNav is their sand box and they can do what they want.

That being the only probelm I have had with Air Nav management I use the site all the time. It has a nice link to NOTAMS, flight planning, charts, ect.

When do you think AirNav guy will fix or attack that accusation?

Or this one?

We do need a new AirNav IMHO

It's not just that advertisers can suppress comments -- which we've never taken advantage of (I respond and leave them) -- but they will not even show an FBO who does NOT advertise at $x00 per year.

The site is actually doing a disservice to pilots by not showing them all of the facilities that are available at an airport.

...I still leave comments, though, when I can, both good and bad.

As I said before I did not believe for a minute that it had anything to do with the price, it was about a paying customer getting a negative comment. Had the issue truly been the price, then the option to remove that part of the comment would have been made two years ago instead of earlier today. That proved to me the real motivation of AirNav.

 

[jason]

Whatever Jason, you know everything.

Really, Scott? What am I purporting to "know" in this thread.

1. Paulo is still inviting you to back up your claims.
2. You're not doing it.
3. He didn't call you a liar.
4. You did call him a liar.

How am I being a know it all?

 

[ScottM]

That is not about comments. It is about listing services, logos, etc. Not comments. Comments are and always have been free.

They are free for FBOs that have paid AirNav for a listing though? I looked at the 6Y9 page on AirNAv and I still do not see how to leave a comment. The only way to leave comments is for a listed business, right? Can a business list for free?

 

[jason]

They are free for FBOs that have paid AirNav for a listing though? I looked at the 6Y9 page on AirNAv and I still do not see how to leave a comment. The only way to leave comments is for a listed business, right? Can a business list for free?

He already addressed that. There is no "business" for which to leave comments. There is no FBO on the field. There are no services.

 

[ScottM]

Really, Scott? What am I purporting to "know" in this thread.

1. Paulo is still inviting you to back up your claims.
2. You're not doing it.

I did not have the receipt two years ago, how do you imagine I would have it now?

1. He didn't call you a liar.

"Perhaps Scott made some math error and no longer had the original receipt to recheck his math. But in the end the fact is, the factual statement was not truthful" is saying I lied. If indeed he had meant I had made an error he would have the the statement was in error but instead he chose to say I was "untruthful" in my statement.

The other part was when he said I had not responded to his email. I had. He later apologized for that and stated that he had not received that one email. That missing email is what has led to some of the ill will between us. I am not accusing him of lying about not receiving that email. It happens. It has happened when people send me emails. I think you also know me well enough that I don't miss much online and do keep up with my emails and messages. At the time of this incident I was only using 3 email accounts. 1 for work, 1 for all my personal communications, and one as a throw away for spam. It was my personal account that I used for AirNav. That one gets checked, read, responded to and cleaned up often. Since that perosnal account is *gasp* a hotmail account I do understand that sometime over zealous firewall and spam blockers grab, divert, delete email from that domain. I was at the time also using a @amsat.org domain remailer with the hotmail and had that set as a reply to: address. Bottom line it is plausible that the email did not get to him because of filtering.

My assumption was and still remains that the motivation was the negative comment regarding the way GA is treated by this FBO. When AirNav did not respond to my email and the comment was removed that solidified my reasoning. The offer now to edit that price section out of comment comes two year later. It was never made back when this was happening. That gets me thinking that AirNav is doing some house cleaning of their reputation now. As it has been noted I am not the only one who had made comments about AirNav 'removed comments' here on PoA or on other web boards.

How am I being a know it all?

Beats the heck out of me, but it sure did not stop you from making some pronouncements about this whole situation when it was finally starting to settle down.

I went back and searched PoA for comments I had made about AirNav. With the exception of this thread all were positive that I could find. The comment deletion had left a bad taste in my mouth and I stopped using AirNav as my primary source for info about airport businesses. In the past couple of years FlightAware has made such great strides that I use that almost exclusively now. Considering the bad blood the whole comments thing bring about, much like PoA repuation system. I cannot help but wonder if it is even useful anymore? I certianly have no trust of it, others have indicated a lack of trust or skepticism of the data. I am sure AirNav has to do extra work with it. Online pilots have a lot more sources of info available to them now than when AirNav first came online. Perhaps it is time to rethink having comments?

 

[ScottM]

He already addressed that. There is no "business" for which to leave comments. There is no FBO on the field. There are no services.

Yep just caught that as I was looking over stuff and was gong to delete my post. But since you quoted it I leave it for thread integrity sake.

 

[jason]

I did not have the receipt two years ago, how do you imagine I would have it now?

He's offering you other methods of proving your claim. Why not work with him to make him put his money where his mouth is. I certainly can't speak to what transpired before (besides what is in this thread) but it seems as if he's genuinely interested in getting to the bottom of what has made you so vitriolic.

"Perhaps Scott made some math error and no longer had the original receipt to recheck his math. But in the end the fact is, the factual statement was not truthful" is saying I lied. If indeed he had meant I had made an error he would have the the statement was in error but instead he chose to say I was "untruthful" in my statement.

The other part was when he said I had not responded to his email. I had. He later apologized for that and stated that he had not received that one email. That missing email is what has led to some of the ill will between us. I am not accusing him of lying about not receiving that email. It happens. It has happened when people send me emails. I think you also know me well enough that I don't miss much online and do keep up with my emails and messages. At the time of this incident I was only using 3 email accounts. 1 for work, 1 for all my personal communications, and one as a throw away for spam. It was my personal account that I used for AirNav. That one gets checked, read, responded to and cleaned up often. Since that perosnal account is *gasp* a hotmail account I do understand that sometime over zealous firewall and spam blockers grab, divert, delete email from that domain. I was at the time also using a @amsat.org domain remailer with the hotmail and had that set as a reply to: address. Bottom line it is plausible that the email did not get to him because of filtering.

My assumption was and still remains that the motivation was the negative comment regarding the way GA is treated by this FBO. When AirNav did not respond to my email and the comment was removed that solidified my reasoning. The offer now to edit that price section out of comment comes two year later. It was never made back when this was happening. That gets me thinking that AirNav is doing some house cleaning of their reputation now. As it has been noted I am not the only one who had made comments about AirNav 'removed comments' here on PoA or on other web boards.

Scott, "not truthful" and "liar" are two very different things. He said that your statement was "not truthful". You called him a "liar". One is an attack on a point in time. The other is an attack on a person's character. For somebody so adept at the written word, I have no doubt that you can see the difference.

Besides, even if your assumption is correct and he's just trying to clean up the reputation of his business, who can blame him? You have to admit that he has his side of the story well documented and archived. Even now he's giving you every opportunity to prove him wrong. I certainly do understand not having a fuel receipt from two years ago. What I don't understand is how you can turn your lack of a receipt into him kowtowing to paying customers to the detriment of GA. Your perception of his actions does not automatically equal the reality of the situation. Whether or not you'll allow yourself to believe that. If he's still willing to help you prove your claim why can't you give him the benefit of the doubt? If he says that things would have been different if you had been able to provide a receipt for your visit, I see no reason not to believe that.

Beats the heck out of me, but it sure did not stop you from making some pronouncements about this whole situation when it was finally starting to settle down.

Ah, you're worried about the thread settling down. I'm sorry, I was having a hard time seeing that through your responses.

I'll stay out of this now. It's not really my fight. For the most part I was just interjecting as your friend, hoping to calm you down some. Based solely on what I've seen transpire in this thread, it doesn't seem like you care nearly as much about getting to the bottom of Paulo's intent with your comment as you do about discrediting his business practices. That's the only part that bothers me. Now that you're actually conversing with him instead of leveling accusations why not give him the opportunity to prove you wrong?

 

[ScottM]

He's offering you other methods of proving your claim. Why not work with him to make him put his money where his mouth is.

We had settled it. You must of missed the post.

Ah, you're worried about the thread settling down. I'm sorry, I was having a hard time seeing that through your responses.

Those were about other subjects

Scott, "not truthful" and "liar" are two very different things. He said that your statement was "not truthful". You called him a "liar". One is an attack on a point in time. The other is an attack on a person's character. For somebody so adept at the written word, I have no doubt that you can see the difference.?

I disagree and for the reason I had already stated. They mean exactly the same thing. To lie is to speak an untruth. The words are synonymous.

I'll stay out of this now. It's not really my fight.

Didn't stop you from jumping in and raking over the coals though a few minutes ago. But I'll stop too.

 

[jesse]

Didn't stop you from jumping in and raking over the coals though a few minutes ago.

Nice Scott....Nice..

We are 2 days away from making it an entire month without a reported post. Please don't blow that.

 

[ScottM]

Nice Scott....Nice..

We are 2 days away from making it an entire month without a reported post. Please don't blow that.

Thanks Jesse, BTW please fix the quote I had put the wrong emoticon in it and edited to fix it. Your posting came right as I was cleaning up the post.

 

[Graueradler]

Regarding inclusion of taxes, I just received this email:

This is your reminder to verify and update your fuel prices on
AirNav.com.

As a participant in the AirNav Fuel Price Guarantee Program, you have
pledged to update your prices on AirNav any time they change, and to
honor the prices published on AirNav.com to all customers. Therefore,
it is important to ensure that your prices are displayed correctly.

The prices we are currently showing were last updated 30 days ago.
100LL Full service 3.870 USD/gal
Jet A Full service 3.650 USD/gal
Prices are per gallon, and include all taxes.

If these prices need to be updated, please update them online at
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KRUE/A/update-fuel

If you should decide not to update the prices at this time you will
receive another email reminder in 5 days.

If you have any questions about this message or the AirNav Fuel Price
Guarantee Program, please contact us at updates@airnav.com

Thank you for participating in the AirNav Fuel Price Guarantee Program.

 

[jason]

Didn't stop you from jumping in and raking over the coals though a few minutes ago. But I'll stop too.

That's what friends are for.

 

[AuntPeggy]

EdFred, we don't have a solution for you at this time. We do not have a place for comments about non-existing FBOs. Comments are attached to the presence of a business or service at an airport. I believe AOPA supports comments about the airport in general, so that may be an immediate solution for you.

Alternatively, if you have your own web site about your airport you can host comments there, and AirNav would be glad to provide a free link to you site.

I just found this site that does allow comments about airports. Looks like it has many of the features of AirNav except information about the businesses at the airport. http://www.navmonster.com/

I really like the route map. http://www.navmonster.com/map/6G5-N94-10

And individual airports.
http://www.navmonster.com/apt/6G5?PHPSESSID=d4bdf801a0a780804e5b215089177926