Airplane buying and dealing with unapproved repairs

weirdjim said:
If you ever get to hear the "Fabulous Friday" recording that Dave Yeoman made back at Oshkosh before they had arrival procedures, the "red and white Cessna taildragger" on that tape would be me.
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That is one freaky audio recording.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you don't like the length of the thread and don't have anything constructive to add (that hasn't already been mentioned before), then why bother posting what others have already posted and increase the length of the thread???
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What part of "its a buyer's market" did you not understand? And if telling you to walk and find an airplane that's been properly cared for isn't constructive, then sorry I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. And I'll complain about whatever I like thank you. You don't have to get your panties in a wad. It's only the internet.
 
steingar said:
What part of "its a buyer's market" did you not understand? And if telling you to walk and find an airplane that's been properly cared for isn't constructive, then sorry I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. And I'll complain about whatever I like thank you. You don't have to get your panties in a wad. It's only the internet.
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Well, at least we know how you racked up an 8,000+ post count:rolleyes2:

My point was that you had nothing to add that hadn't been said in the thread already. And, since you can't read, I will re-iterate: walking is still an option I am prepared to exercise.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Well, at least we know how you racked up an 8,000+ post count:rolleyes2:

My point was that you had nothing to add that hadn't been said in the thread already. And, since you can't read, I will re-iterate: walking is still an option I am prepared to exercise.
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This is Michael. His experience owning a Cherokee 140 has made knowledgeable on the same level as some Grumman-owning flight instructors on the board, giving him advanced knowledge about everything, especially without reading any of the other posts on the thread. He ALWAYS has something to add that is constructive. :wink2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This is Michael. His experience owning a Cherokee 140 has made knowledgeable on the same level as some Grumman-owning flight instructors on the board, giving him advanced knowledge about everything, especially without reading any of the other posts on the thread. He ALWAYS has something to add that is constructive. :wink2:
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Damn straight.
 
dmccormack said:
I believe tongue was firmly planted in cheek.







But I may be wrong.
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I believe that Michael was aware of the position of my tongue relative to my cheek (as you correctly surmised), and took my statement in the spirit it was intended, although perhaps didn't learn from it.

Perhaps we should raise funds to send him to charm school.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I believe that Michael was aware of the position of my tongue relative to my cheek (as you correctly surmised), and took my statement in the spirit it was intended, although perhaps didn't learn from it.

Perhaps we should raise funds to send him to charm school.
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Officer Candidate School? That's free....

:ihih:

I'll start the paperwork....
 
On a side note related to the original question -

I apologize for my confusion, but to this marine diesel engineer, airplane maintenance regulations are starting to remind me of the kind of restrictions you see in steam or nuclear engineering. In the diesel world, we just bust out the wrenches, get greasy, pound metal and fix stuff.

What is the reference that spells out what you can weld and what you can't when it comes to aircraft repairs? I found the log entry for the weld in quesiton - done in 1997 as part of an extensive annual and between this board, another and the A&P that did the pre-buy, I'm getting answers that range from - 'that's totally illegal' to 'what makes you think it is a major repair?'

The difference here could be somewhere around $1000-$1500 in my offering price.
 
Fearless Tower said:
On a side note related to the original question -

I apologize for my confusion, but to this marine diesel engineer, airplane maintenance regulations are starting to remind me of the kind of restrictions you see in steam or nuclear engineering. In the diesel world, we just bust out the wrenches, get greasy, pound metal and fix stuff.

What is the reference that spells out what you can weld and what you can't when it comes to aircraft repairs? I found the log entry for the weld in quesiton - done in 1997 as part of an extensive annual and between this board, another and the A&P that did the pre-buy, I'm getting answers that range from - 'that's totally illegal' to 'what makes you think it is a major repair?'

The difference here could be somewhere around $1000-$1500 in my offering price.
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Three words:

Experimental, Amateur Built.

Solves a lot of problems.
 
I guess the first question I'd ask is why someone would weld aluminum when there was an alternative, like riveting, if that was the original part was attached.
 
Trapper John said:
I guess the first question I'd ask is why someone would weld aluminum when there was an alternative, like riveting, if that was the original part was attached.
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I may not have mentioned it here, but it turns out the part was actually the aileron hinge rib - it is a small piece of rib that is part of the wing that the aileron attaches to. The A&P wrote the wrong term and that confused me. The bracket is an easier fix and is part of the aileron itself.

The was obviously a crack in the hinge that needed to be repaired, so they welded it (in the 140s and early 170s, Cessna used a thinner rib there that was prone to cracking I have recently learned).
 
Fearless Tower said:
On a side note related to the original question -

I apologize for my confusion, but to this marine diesel engineer, airplane maintenance regulations are starting to remind me of the kind of restrictions you see in steam or nuclear engineering. In the diesel world, we just bust out the wrenches, get greasy, pound metal and fix stuff.
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And as you've found, there's no shortage of people who end up doing that on airplanes. Especially when it comes to old ones.

I've long questioned why a Part 91 operator should be concerned with these things. As a veteran Jaguar mechanic, we had parts from all over the globe represented on most of our cars. The main thing I've established with aircraft repairs is that bad mechanics have a piece of paper saying they should be "good enough" mechanics. I haven't figured out why I need to spend $50 on an alternator belt when I could buy it from NAPA for $5, $500 on an alternator rebuild that is impossible to find in aviation but, again, is in NAPA for $100, etc. I do it anyway because I don't think it's worth being illegal to save a few bucks, but I still wonder. 135 and 121 I do see the reasons for it, but not 91.

What is the reference that spells out what you can weld and what you can't when it comes to aircraft repairs? I found the log entry for the weld in quesiton - done in 1997 as part of an extensive annual and between this board, another and the A&P that did the pre-buy, I'm getting answers that range from - 'that's totally illegal' to 'what makes you think it is a major repair?'

The difference here could be somewhere around $1000-$1500 in my offering price.
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I don't know the details on what's being welded or where to find whether or not it's a proper repair, so that's an A&P question. But if you're ok with buying the plane with the questionable repair, I'd offer the low number and respectfully state that it's something that is questionable (as referenced by your varying responses). Doubly so if it's in a structural area.

In the case of my Aztec, for instance, we had to replace the engine mount. It's been rebuilt to better-than-new, and that's documented by the rebuilder and evidenced with the elimination of an AD. If my mechanic had welded it, I would expect a smart buyer to ding it on value, not knowing how good my mechanic was at welding.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I may not have mentioned it here, but it turns out the part was actually the aileron hinge rib - it is a small piece of rib that is part of the wing that the aileron attaches to. The A&P wrote the wrong term and that confused me. The bracket is an easier fix and is part of the aileron itself.

The was obviously a crack in the hinge that needed to be repaired, so they welded it (in the 140s and early 170s, Cessna used a thinner rib there that was prone to cracking).
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If I'm understanding correctly, the repair involved welding of aluminum. Here are a few things about aluminum that are worth considering:

1. Aluminum alloys have a finite fatigue life.
2. Welding thin aluminum sections is not easy to do correctly.
3. Welding thin aluminum sections will, at the very least, change the temper condition of the alloy. Once you've changed the mechanical properties of the alloy, it isn't the same part any more.
4. Welding thin aluminum sections can impart stresses that may accelerate another fatigue failure.

If you like everything else about this plane maybe the thing to do is offer them what you think is fair less the value of a better repair - my $0.02.
 
I still want to know what the guy who will maintain the airplane for you says about this repair.
 
wabower said:
I still want to know what the guy who will maintain the airplane for you says about this repair.
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It is a valid point, but there are two things involved - first, haven't made a final decision on a local guy yet. And second, I want and need this thing to be legal for ANY IA to sign off. I'm Navy, so I expect that I will either be selling this airplane in 2 years, or moving it across country, so either way, it needs to be right for anyone.

From the discussions here (particularly what Bill pointed out) and on the 170 board, it sounds like while it may be cheaper to try and get this current repair retro legal, I'd sleep alot better with that part outright replaced. I'll factor the cost of repair into my offer. If they don't like it - I'll walk.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is a valid point, but there are two things involved - first, haven't made a final decision on a local guy yet. And second, I want and need this thing to be legal for ANY IA to sign off. I'm Navy, so I expect that I will either be selling this airplane in 2 years, or moving it across country, so either way, it needs to be right for anyone.
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I'd view this as important in general. The last thing you want is to wonder when you take your plane to a mystery shop if it'll get red-tagged for some odditiy. I want to have peace of mind that, if anyone tries to pull that, I have legal recourse.

From the discussions here (particularly what Bill pointed out) and on the 170 board, it sounds like while it may be cheaper to try and get this current repair retro legal, I'd sleep alot better with that part outright replaced. I'll factor the cost of repair into my offer. If they don't like it - I'll walk.
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And you've solved the real crux of the issue. Regardless of the legality, you have what you want, and they can't question that. A fair and reasonable assessment.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is a valid point, but there are two things involved - first, haven't made a final decision on a local guy yet. And second, I want and need this thing to be legal for ANY IA to sign off. I'm Navy, so I expect that I will either be selling this airplane in 2 years, or moving it across country, so either way, it needs to be right for anyone.

In which case I submit that you have your cart and your horse slightly out of sequence. My first priority would be to locate that guy, whoever he is, and be sure my initial ownership experience with this airplane is on good footing from day one.

Getting any airplane to the point that it's "right for anybody" is a tall order, since we don't know what else might be lurking deep within the airplane or the paperwork.

Finally, there's no way to predict what might happen within the next two years, or two days for that matter. A new AD or inspection program could pop up at any minute. If it does, you're stuck with it. You must simply accept the fact that you've done what is prudent and necessary now and that's about all you can do.

From the discussions here (particularly what Bill pointed out) and on the 170 board, it sounds like while it may be cheaper to try and get this current repair retro legal, I'd sleep alot better with that part outright replaced. I'll factor the cost of repair into my offer. If they don't like it - I'll walk.
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PS: Don't get too wrapped around the axle over $1,500 if everything else is good.
 
Trapper John said:
I guess the first question I'd ask is why someone would weld aluminum when there was an alternative, like riveting, if that was the original part was attached.
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How do you know who did? lots of parts on the early Cessna's were spot welded.

in order to tell if it is an authorized repair or OEM one must look at it. and know what they are looking at.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is a valid point, but there are two things involved - first, haven't made a final decision on a local guy yet. And second, I want and need this thing to be legal for ANY IA to sign off. I'm Navy, so I expect that I will either be selling this airplane in 2 years, or moving it across country, so either way, it needs to be right for anyone.

From the discussions here (particularly what Bill pointed out) and on the 170 board, it sounds like while it may be cheaper to try and get this current repair retro legal, I'd sleep alot better with that part outright replaced. I'll factor the cost of repair into my offer. If they don't like it - I'll walk.
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Stick a magnet on the weld, many of the ribs and hinge points are 4130 steel, and perfectly legal to weld by any A&P as a minor repair.

Some body is cracking hairs, picking nits, and sweating the little shi-

If you are willing to except a metalized wing but not a minor repair, some body is kicking tires.
 
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Tom-D said:
Stick a magnet on the weld, many of the ribs and hinge points are 4130 steel, and perfectly legal to weld by any A&P as a minor repair.

Some body is cracking hairs, picking nits, and sweating the little shi-

If you are willing to except a metalized wing but not a minor repair, some body is kicking tires.
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That is, I suppose, the issue - Not being an A&P, how do I really know if this is a minor repair? Even among A&Ps, it seems you can get quite a difference of opinions.

The A&P IA who did the inspection feels it classifies as a major repair and thus a 337 would be required.

I know this - the outfit who did the repair is still in business and is a class 3 airframe repair station (if that even matters - again, I'm a total noob here). I suppose I could call them and see if they recall the work from 13 years ago.

As far as the metalized wing goes - we have already established that is a legit mod. May not be a very desirable mod these days, but at least it is legit.

Also, this is just one of several repairs needed on the airplane. So far all of them are addressable (at a cost, of course). Let's just say that over all, I suspect that I'm looking at a $4-5000 annual on this airplane and that is not fixing every little thing wrong on the list. Now, I expect a first annual to be the most expensive, and I honestly don't mind paying that - as long as I am not paying full asking price on the airplane.

I am actually willing to let alot of things go - I don't think I'm picking nits.

At any rate, I went ahead and made an offer that I am comfortable with (contingent on going back and borescoping the main spar carrythrough that you mentioned). I'll let ya know how it turns out.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is, I suppose, the issue - Not being an A&P, how do I really know if this is a minor repair? Even among A&Ps, it seems you can get quite a difference of opinions.

The A&P IA who did the inspection feels it classifies as a major repair and thus a 337 would be required.

I know this - the outfit who did the repair is still in business and is a class 3 airframe repair station (if that even matters - again, I'm a total noob here). I suppose I could call them and see if they recall the work from 13 years ago.

As far as the metalized wing goes - we have already established that is a legit mod. May not be a very desirable mod these days, but at least it is legit.

Also, this is just one of several repairs needed on the airplane. So far all of them are addressable (at a cost, of course). Let's just say that over all, I suspect that I'm looking at a $4-5000 annual on this airplane and that is not fixing every little thing wrong on the list. Now, I expect a first annual to be the most expensive, and I honestly don't mind paying that - as long as I am not paying full asking price on the airplane.

I am actually willing to let alot of things go - I don't think I'm picking nits.

At any rate, I went ahead and made an offer that I am comfortable with (contingent on going back and borescoping the main spar carrythrough that you mentioned). I'll let ya know how it turns out.
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Post pictures, I can't believe some IA signed off 13 annuals and didn't know it was a major repair. The CRS that did the work has a higher QA level and training status than any A&P in the field, and a lot more at risk if the screwed the pooch on this.

If you are active duty NAVY, get orders to Puget Sound, I'll maintain the 170 for free,
 
Tom-D said:
How do you know who did? lots of parts on the early Cessna's were spot welded.
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Because it was described as a part that was cracked that was repaired with a weld. And no one would spot weld a crack. That's not what spot welds are used for.

in order to tell if it is an authorized repair or OEM one must look at it. and know what they are looking at.
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Ya, that's pretty obvious.
 
Tom-D said:
Post pictures, I can't believe some IA signed off 13 annuals and didn't know it was a major repair. The CRS that did the work has a higher QA level and training status than any A&P in the field, and a lot more at risk if the screwed the pooch on this.

If you are active duty NAVY, get orders to Puget Sound, I'll maintain the 170 for free,
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It may be a while before I can get photos, but I'll try.

I do find it interesting too that it has been signed off for so long - especially since the airplane has been in a couple different states since then, so it would be a few different IAs who have okay'd this. At any rate, I went ahead and emailed the Repair Station that did the work to see if they have any records that far back. There was no 337 and the owner only has the log entry - no work order.

If I ever get up to PACNORWEST, I'll look ya up Tom!
 
You stated the outcome is up to a $1,500 decision. As such, why not just offer $1,500 below your desired purchase price? If the owner balks, offer him the option of making the repair.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is, I suppose, the issue - Not being an A&P, how do I really know if this is a minor repair? Even among A&Ps, it seems you can get quite a difference of opinions.

The A&P IA who did the inspection feels it classifies as a major repair and thus a 337 would be required.

I know this - the outfit who did the repair is still in business and is a class 3 airframe repair station (if that even matters - again, I'm a total noob here). I suppose I could call them and see if they recall the work from 13 years ago.

As far as the metalized wing goes - we have already established that is a legit mod. May not be a very desirable mod these days, but at least it is legit.

Also, this is just one of several repairs needed on the airplane. So far all of them are addressable (at a cost, of course). Let's just say that over all, I suspect that I'm looking at a $4-5000 annual on this airplane and that is not fixing every little thing wrong on the list. Now, I expect a first annual to be the most expensive, and I honestly don't mind paying that - as long as I am not paying full asking price on the airplane.
I am actually willing to let alot of things go - I don't think I'm picking nits.

At any rate, I went ahead and made an offer that I am comfortable with (contingent on going back and borescoping the main spar carrythrough that you mentioned). I'll let ya know how it turns out.
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The asking price is not the number to go off of. What you need to determine is the overall actual value. What can you buy for the same $$$ in the condition you want it to be? The asking price may be in line for the value as presented. I'm not saying it is in your case, just saying that your premise of necessarily deducting repairs from asking price is incorrect for the part of a buyer, you have to determine where the asking price is in the market before you can establish that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It may be a while before I can get photos, but I'll try.

I do find it interesting too that it has been signed off for so long - especially since the airplane has been in a couple different states since then, so it would be a few different IAs who have okay'd this. At any rate, I went ahead and emailed the Repair Station that did the work to see if they have any records that far back. There was no 337 and the owner only has the log entry - no work order.

If I ever get up to PACNORWEST, I'll look ya up Tom!
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Could you tell me the color of the plane and current owner? If you don't want to make it public just shoot me a PM, I'm not competing for it, I just want to know if it's a buddies so I can have you give him a "hi".
 
Trapper John said:
If I'm understanding correctly, the repair involved welding of aluminum. Here are a few things about aluminum that are worth considering:

1. Aluminum alloys have a finite fatigue life.
2. Welding thin aluminum sections is not easy to do correctly.
3. Welding thin aluminum sections will, at the very least, change the temper condition of the alloy. Once you've changed the mechanical properties of the alloy, it isn't the same part any more.
4. Welding thin aluminum sections can impart stresses that may accelerate another fatigue failure.

If you like everything else about this plane maybe the thing to do is offer them what you think is fair less the value of a better repair - my $0.02.
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1. No argument.
2. Not all that difficult either, and aircraft skins aren't that thin.
3. This is calculable to determine and limited in distance from the weld. It may or may not be a critical issue.
4. Ehhhh... depends. You can cause such issues, but it's not a given and it is predictable.
 
Henning said:
The asking price is not the number to go off of. What you need to determine is the overall actual value. What can you buy for the same $$$ in the condition you want it to be? The asking price may be in line for the value as presented. I'm not saying it is in your case, just saying that your premise of necessarily deducting repairs from asking price is incorrect for the part of a buyer, you have to determine where the asking price is in the market before you can establish that.
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Totally agree - in this case, I felt that the asking price was in line with the market. When I responded to the ad, I felt that is was a worthy price for an airworthy airplane that needed cosmetic work.
 
Good enough for me. Having a realistic guy on both sides of the trade is a huge advantage in any buy-sell trade, especially at the airport.

Fearless Tower said:
Totally agree - in this case, I felt that the asking price was in line with the market. When I responded to the ad, I felt that is was a worthy price for an airworthy airplane that needed cosmetic work.
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Henning said:
Which would you prefer on floats with the IO-360-KB conversion? What would a good one go for?
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The C-170-B/IO-360-KB is an awesome aircraft, holding 70 on climb, you can't see the horizon over the nose. But I don't know if Tom Anderson offers it on the 48. or the "A" (49-52) fixed pitch wooden prop, pitched to hold the lower RPM for noise certification, and rated at 195 horses.

JD Benham's STC offers it with a Constant speed prop, AKA as the C-337 front engine, which IMHO brings the CG too far forward to be a good short field aircraft,

second thought, no 170 was delivered by the factory with a float kit, or corrosion protection, some have been converted in the field, all make a great SES with a limited load, with the C-145, but they all climb like crazy with the 180 or 195 horse mods.
 
FWIW - owners and I agreed on a price contingent on having the IA go back and borescope the main spar cabin carry thru as Tom recommended - I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

Tom, you coming to the 170 convention in SD this year?
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW - owners and I agreed on a price contingent on having the IA go back and borescope the main spar cabin carry thru as Tom recommended - I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

Tom, you coming to the 170 convention in SD this year?
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In what? my F-24 OBTW I'm not a member anymore.
 
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