Airline Capt. chastized for telling the truth...

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Avweb ran a story about an Air Canada flight that was delayed when the flight attendants decided to strand the flight because they didn't like how something smelled (no details on the smell). So while the airline tried to find a replacement cabin crew the pilot explained the situation to the passengers and urged them to remain on the plane saying he was completely certain that the plane was safe to fly. Apparently the company brass thinks the cattle should be kept in the dark as much as possible to prevent panic (or bad PR). Seems to me that the captain did the right thing and had he kept the real issue quiet during the delay the word would have eventually gotten out leaving the pax even more PO'd when they heard the truth through the grapevine.


Meanwhile the captain can expect a meeting with Air Canada brass on what exactly passengers need to know during a ground delay. "Why alarm them when we know the plane is perfectly safe?" Michael Tremblay, the head of Air Canada customer relations, told Mason afterward. "I think it might have been handled differently. I think we're probably going to talk to the captain about what information is appropriate to share with passengers and what is not."

So apparently it's company policy to lie about the reasons for delays.
 
So apparently it's company policy to lie about the reasons for delays.

As many airline flights as I've taken, this comes as absolutely no surprise to me.

The final straw for me and UA was when a gate agent lied to my face, costing me a very important business meeting the next morning. I specifically asked the agent about a delay (hey, no plane at the gate, before the days of Flightstats/FlightAware) as I would take the connecting flight on another airline because of the importance of my meeting. He told me "short delay, plane will be here momentarily, connection to your destination will be good". The minute the competitor's flight left, he said "the inbound has just left Chicago, will be here in 90 minutes." I had a 60 minute connection, which was blown. I looked at him... he sneered and said "well, if I told you the truth, you would have flown the competitor - so *WE* get your revenue."

I have never forgotten that. And UA has lost well over $1 million of my/my company's business since then.

The other airlines aren't much better, but none of them blatently stuck it in my face and cost me thousands of dollars in business.
 
I almost always believe honesty is the best policy when giving PAs to my passengers. Only times it wouldn't be prudent when a delay is caused by a passenger...for example, we're deliberating having them disembark, because of drunkeness or some other reason.
 
As many airline flights as I've taken, this comes as absolutely no surprise to me.

The final straw for me and UA was when a gate agent lied to my face, costing me a very important business meeting the next morning. I specifically asked the agent about a delay (hey, no plane at the gate, before the days of Flightstats/FlightAware) as I would take the connecting flight on another airline because of the importance of my meeting. He told me "short delay, plane will be here momentarily, connection to your destination will be good". The minute the competitor's flight left, he said "the inbound has just left Chicago, will be here in 90 minutes." I had a 60 minute connection, which was blown. I looked at him... he sneered and said "well, if I told you the truth, you would have flown the competitor - so *WE* get your revenue."

I have never forgotten that. And UA has lost well over $1 million of my/my company's business since then.

The other airlines aren't much better, but none of them blatently stuck it in my face and cost me thousands of dollars in business.

Did you take some recourse to UA?
 
Did you take some recourse to UA?

From his story, it sounds like he did, denying them over a million dollars in business!

Now all Bill has to do (if he hasn't already) is write UA a letter describing the incident, and his and his company's subsequent decision. Maybe they'll think twice. . . .
 
So while the airline tried to find a replacement cabin crew the pilot explained the situation to the passengers and urged them to remain on the plane saying he was completely certain that the plane was safe to fly.

Something doesn't smell right...so instead of investigating the smell they just find a replacement crew?

Something doesn't smell right...and the capt. tells the passengers that they're not departing on time, but he's certain that the plane is safe to fly?

huh.

Something doesn't smell right about the information in the article. Not that it would be the first time that pertinent information was left out of a news story.
 
Something doesn't smell right...so instead of investigating the smell they just find a replacement crew?

Something doesn't smell right...and the capt. tells the passengers that they're not departing on time, but he's certain that the plane is safe to fly?

huh.

Something doesn't smell right about the information in the article. Not that it would be the first time that pertinent information was left out of a news story.
Longer story about this from one of the passengers who also happens to be a reporter for the Globe and Mail.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ies-his-passengers/article4231155/?cmpid=rss1

The matter was effectively a dispute between the captain and his attendants or, to put it another way, between the airline and the union. It was a difference of opinion that should have been resolved beyond the earshot of the paying public aboard.

We should have been told to get off the plane while the airline resolved what was essentially a maintenance issue. Once the airline had a pilot and four happy and confident flight attendants, we should have been allowed back on. I understand that the captain was trying to be as forthright with his passengers as he could, but sometimes discretion is a better option than unintentionally terrifying people.
 
I've come to the realization that you can tell a major airline employee is lieing when his/her lips are moving with regards to delays, and/or the reason for the delay. :rolleyes:
 
Saw the thread title and thought for sure this thread was going to be about me on this forum.

Guess not...
 
This happened to me last Friday night - the lying goes all the way through operations -

Yesterday afternoon and evening at O'Hare United exhibited a practice that I see as extremely shady and anti-customer - they shifted all of the delays from storms and airport problems to west coast flights - making every single flight into SAN/SNA/LAX/SFO/PDX/LAS/SEA at least 1 hour late beginning at 6p CDT. Literally not a single one of these aircraft were scheduled to be late - they took on time arrivals scheduled to connect to the west coast flights and turned the planes to east coast destinations so the other connecting passengers would not be late heading into the east coast cities. The only explanation for this is that they did not want to have delays cascade to the next morning from late crews. So instead of having a few scattered late flights they made every single late eve west coast flight at least an hour late - and BLAMED THE WEATHER!

I am fairly saavy when it comes to flight delays and ATC. so I tend to check the origin of my flights.

I was scheduled on United Flight 411 from ORD-LAX leaving at 745p. On the morning of 15 June I checked both United's website and Flightaware,com = United's website informed me that UAL411 would be operating using a 757-200 bearing tail number 5686. This flight would be coming from PHL, operating as flight 563, arriving at 543pm at gate C23.

At 545p - United changed the operation of flight 411, now it would no longer operate as 'ship # 5686" but was now a different tail number - and now leaving at 809pm from gate B9 - and the claimed reason for the delay was 'Late Crew Arrival."

Thereafter, they again changed the gate to C9, now operating ship # 5403. We did not push the gate until 1 hour and 6 min late. The two earlier flights, leaving at 540p and 631p - had the SAME IDENTICAL multiple gate changes -

The aircraft #5686 eventually departed to LGA. The aircraft due into the THAT gate was over 90 min due to weather in Denver - or at least it departed 1 hr 26 min late from DEN for whatever reason. So they took our on-time airplane - and gave it to another flight. The only reason I can think of is that a 7p departure from ORD to LGA would be a 2 hour flight, scheduled for probably 2hr 45min, add an hour from the time change and you have a 11p arrival. Make that late arrival to midnight and beyond and you lose the flight crew being able to fly before 10a due to crew rest.

The aircraft at Gate B9 - where we were first 'given a new gate' departed to BWI.

There were SEVERAL passengers scheduled to travel from LAX to Asia [ there are several late night flights from LAX-Australia/ New Zealand and Japan] and they were told that the delay was WEATHER because the airplane ultimately designed to fly this trip WAS delayed by weather coming from Denver. I was standing close to the gate when the Gate agent said that and I spoke up and said 'absolutely not,' the aircraft originally scheduled to fly this trip was re-assigned by United operations - this flight is late because of a decision made by United. I stepped in and asked the gate agent to protect these people and make the appropriate notations - these people were clueless obviously - and she was very unhappy with me. I asked her to call a supervisor over and explain to these folks why they might miss their flight to Sydney tonight was because United took our airplane - rescheduled it to another trip - and gave the delay to our flight.

Why? Because they gained 2 hours in the day from the time change and when we arrived in LAX they can send the crew to the hotel at midnight and have them back at work at 9am - and not have a delay.

I checked - every single flight - every single non-stop to the west coast last night - was delayed at least an hour and ALL of them had gate changes to different airplanes.

I'd bet that in every case United blamed the delay on 'weather' when THEY repurposed their aircraft for their convenience - screw the passengers.

I have the 2 gate change emails from United - and United can easily provide evidence of changing the aircraft assignments since they need to track their usage.

What is 'criminal' is denying people compensation when they actively LIED about the reason for the delay. when an airline can CHOOSE which flights get the delays from weather - their contract terms are meaningless - there is NO reason that ANY flight is late because of weather and when they CREATE a 'weather delay' be reassigning aircraft, they souhld not be able to deny passengers compensation for the delay. It is no longer 'unavoidable.'
 
Does the weather have to affect a specific tail number? Or can it just affect the operation to be causial for the delay?

Should a 757 sitting at the gate depart on time but empty because all the connecting pax are tied up in weather? Or should the 757 wait for the majority of its pax to get there perhaps an hour late (again, because of actual weather)? If it does wait doesn't the 757 get to call weather the cause of its delay even though it sat in sunshine the entire time?

Shouldn't an airline be allowed to handle weather events in such a way that maximises the number of passengers getting to where they want to be as close to on time as possible? If weather is the disruptor that causes the shifting then isn't it fair to put the delays on weather?

Having worked for the airlines I do know this; delay codes are a hot potato. A plane could have a ramp on strike so the pilots load every bag. Then the lav truck breaks and the pilots could commendere another airlines lav truck and service the lav them selves, then a tornado could touch down on the field so the plane has to be evacuated and finally the jet bridge breaks so the passengers have to reboard via a jet stair truck. After all that if the plane has to wait 3 minutes to finish up a checklist in the cockpit the crew is getting the delay. That's how it works. There's only one field on the form to put the delay code and whatever the last thing was to go wrong goes into the field.
 
This has always been infuriating. You interrupt my damned movie or sleep with every banal update about our progress or duty free services yet when we're still sitting on the Tarmac you tell us nothing. I would never consider leaving a load of passengers sit in a plane for more than 2 hours. "Get me a gate or an air stair or I'm popping slides in 10 minutes." If it costs my job so be it, duty comes before job.
 
The joys of databases. They can re-write an entire story with one drop-down selection and everyone can blame it on the computer not having enough detailed selections available. ;)

The reality is, hub-and-spoke is utterly broken as a system once something gets out of whack -- it propagates through the system as a cascading failure. There's no redundancy and no backup plan.

At today's ticket prices and competition levels, there's zero slack in the system to alleviate the wave until the traffic load dies down in the middle of the night and the guys and gals on Reserve are called in to reposition critical aircraft and/or the morning flights are cancelled because equipment is out of position and isn't worth flying it around empty to service the paid customers, because a full flight might only Net the airline a few hundred bucks. The computer decides.

The carriers also compete in "on-time performance" and are masters at that. I can't tell you how many times we pushed 737s off the gate far enough to turn the wheel around one full revolution then asked the cockpit to pull the breaker do we could open the bays back up and finish loading. That was a nightly occurrence at Stapleton in 1993 or so. Pilots usually had mercy on us rampies during a glycol-doused night in the snow. They'd take the hit or write it up as an ATC delay.

The smart FO would give a spiel about an ATC delay, "so we have some time to make sure your bags make this flight". That was always entertaining on the ground phones on the aircraft that mixed the PA into the intercom so the tug driver or lead on the gate could hear it.

We laughed and kept loading. As fast as two guys could button up the last bin, we'd back the belt loader away a foot, guy sitting on the belt would secure the door, and hang on because the belt loader was already in reverse with the other guy's foot on both the gas and the brake. 20' later you'd tumble off the thing hopefully on your feet and run to the other side of the aircraft while pulling your safety wands from your grimy glycol covered jumpsuit pocket.

(Never in front of a 737, it'd suck you through an engine and you'd be pink toothpaste all over the ramp.)

By the time you made it to the wingtip on the far side (junior guy's job, belt loader driver got to stay on the bin side) the aircraft was already 20 feet off the gate and the gate lead had the Paymover floored.

Half jog, half run along the wingtip on the slippery snowy ramp knowing full well that if you held up your sticks in an X for STOP, the Paymover driver couldn't see you in the snowstorm anyway.

Panting from running in the snow, finally your wingtip would pivot and stay still long enough for you to look and see if the aircraft was about to hit anything.

If you were lucky, you'd see the other company aircraft unhooking from a tug 30' behind. Ha. He's stuck now.

Left side guy wouldn't be at his wingtip by now, he's letting the turn bring the nosegear to him. Angling in for the kill, he'd arrive at the towbar the second the Paymover guy slowed to a stop, snag the headset from the driver, yank the pin out of the towbar and wave the tug off, which would take off at full throttle for the parking spot at the gate, and climb underneath to put the nosewheel steering arm into the wheels (if it was a 727), thank the cockpit and jog toward the warming room. See ya tomorrow night!

Unless it was a bad night and someone was sitting in the penalty box and could fit into our gate.

If so, we'd have gotten the radio call, and we'd just stay right where we were and be ready to hold our stupid sticks up in the snow that no one could see anyway and act all Safety-like while the Captain parked the jet.

Lead would plug in the headset he'd been handed by the jogging left-side guy who jogged back out halfway between the wingtip and the catering truck that had magically appeared in the snow, and then would plug in the ground power umbilical...

And we'd zip the belt loaders up to the doors and I'd crawl into some new mess of unorganized bags and boxes and start tossing them out as fast as the belt loader would turn the belt.

(Our team would hunt down the belt loaders that ran fastest against their governors and steal them from other gates, replacing them with slower ones that had been parked on our gate by the day crews. Nobody messed with our belt loaders. If anyone complained, our Puerto Rican guy on the left wingtip would crank up his accent and gibber at the other gate crew in a mix of English and made up crap and act all excited until they went away, while I and the lead would give them a look of, "Oh NOW you've done it!" When we stole them, we always acted like it was to fuel them up, but we knew the fast ones by the numbers painted on them. Our lead's little secret. I went on many a scouting mission between pushes, driving a slow belt loader around looking for old number 18. She was the fastest. Governor probably broke. Ha. Wait until the other crew went inside to warm up, and swap belt loaders. Always brought the new one with a full tank of gas, at least.)

We always made sure the USPS bags went on first. Cash money for the airline and fines if it didn't make the flight.

A coffin also got priority once in a while (head first, bodies leak, but airliners always have a slightly positive deck angle forward to rear except in the descent)... again, cash money.

Freight and then bags. Bags were always last.

The last nightly inbound 727 from Seattle always had one hold full of slimy boxes of frozen fish, which always made the flight to DEN no matter how late the aircraft was, but sometimes you'd open up the second bay and no bags.

Bummer folks, the fish made it for your landlocked Denver restaurants tomorrow, but your bags are in Seattle until tomorrow morning at the earliest.

Worst was if they filled both bins with bags literally thrown on and not stacked, and didn't put the cargo net up between the bags and the slime fish boxes in a hurry at SEA.

Luggage is here, but we coated it in fish slime for you! (That one usually got the Supervisor over and he'd call a complaint in to Ops on his radio for the loading crew in SEA, who all went home on-time hours before and didn't care...)

Those messes always happened when the company was pushing for "zero overtime this week". Throw bags as fast as you can and hurry to clock out on time tonight, boys! Off the clock by 1AM or else!

Try not to look too disgusted if you're at the cart end of the belt loader so people looking out the windows of the airplane don't notice the glistening of fish slime on their bags, and the boxes stacked in the other cart that say "frozen fish" in huge letters.

If you're unaware, junior rampies get "manual load" aircraft. Senior ramp rats bid to work the container-load birds.

Hydraulics. Containers. Nice. I was very junior.

Got to see the low, cramped, insides of all three bins of the Long Beach Death Tube up close, and personal. With only one person up there, you got REALLY good at throwing even the heaviest bags airborne from the belt loader to the front bulkhead while on your hands and knees.

If it said Fragile, you might hold back, or you might throw it harder if you were three inbound flights in the "push" behind and the stupid MD-80 showed up in the middle of it, out of sequence.

So... forcing a ticket agent to make notes on passenger's tickets about Dispatcher Games, isn't going to change it one bit. It's probably gotten worse, not better. My stories are almost two decades old.
 
Excellent story, Denver. However, I doubt whether any passenger gives two shakes if a ramp workers' socks are soaked with glycol, or indeed their safety - when pummeled with hail or lightning or freezing their butts off, sloughing bags when it's 10 degrees and blowing 20kts. In fact, I'd wager most are just blissfully unaware of all the choreography necessary to push an airliner from the gate...on a good day. They don't care if the cabin crew has already been on duty 11 hours, the cockpit crew is on west coast time and hence had to crawl outa bed at 1:30am, California time, or that there may be a line of level 5 thunderstorms, with tops to 60,000ft bearing down on them - so long as their $139 NYC-LAX leaves on time and their precious carryon steamer-trunk fits in the overhead bin.

They don't care that the carrier's employees are working for 1993 wages, or that a sucsessive serial of "executives who's talent is vital" have gutted their pensions, while rewarding themselves handsomely.

And, what's most suprising about this thread, is that it's from pilots - who, one would think - are familiar the effects of weather, logistics, human factors and airplane mechanical systems...issues are not insignificant when there's just one aircraft; Imagine, if you will, the conundrum presented when 350-400 airplanes/crews are out of position because of weather and whathaveyou, because it happens all too often. I almost always tell the truth to my passengers on the PA, and it gives me no pleasure to deliver bad news, but I'm less than sympathetic with passengers who think that they're the only one who is inconvenienced. Sorry, rant off.
 
You know what, we don't care, they took the job now do the damned job. If the wages aren't enough or the conditions suck, quit, it's not conscripted service. It's idiots who will take the jobs, including flight crew jobs, under these conditions that cause these conditions. If you let management f- you, they will, no worries. It's not like any of these conditions are a surprise found out about after signing a binding contract.
 
I hear everything you said, sir.

A good hard look at where the industry was going in the 90s turned me off but I still almost pursued it... then someone handed me a check for fixing supposedly "broken" computers (rather large compared to all previous ones at the time), that really just needed proper configuration and the customer shown how to actually use the thing, and I thought...

"Damn, that's a lot of money for something so easy. YGBFKM. Really? You want me to travel to various places, stick the test gear on the box, see if anything's wrong, and fix it from the manual? And you'll pay me twice what I'll make for the first ten years as an FO?"

(Systems had real maintenance and admin manuals back then... I feel bad for the kids nowadays.)

I bailed. Sure there are days I wish my office had a 30'000 view. But it was the right call. Airline travel became a commodity market. Customers think they get world class service for $99 round-trip.

Co-worker complained here all day yesterday that his flight was on a CRJ on Sunday. Hated it. I asked him what his ticket cost. He didn't get it.
 
You know what, we don't care, they took the job now do the damned job. If the wages aren't enough or the conditions suck, quit, it's not conscripted service. It's idiots who will take the jobs, including flight crew jobs, under these conditions that cause these conditions. If you let management f- you, they will, no worries. It's not like any of these conditions are a surprise found out about after signing a binding contract.

Airline delays and cancelations are almost never a result of someone not doing their damned job. And, if your diplomacy is any indication, management isn't the only group who would f-ck us. No worries.
 
My point was MERELY that the airline can not, in that circumstance, point to weather as the reason for the delay of my flight. The airplane that THEY scheduled [and the incoming connection that they have scheduled in the three days prior and the three days after] comes from city XXX. Today, they take that airplane, which is on time, and use it on another route for their convenience.

Now, I don't CARE that they took my airplane - its their airplane - they can do what they want with it. But they cannot - at that point- invoke their contract of carriage and contend that MY delay is the result of weather. My delay is the result of their making a business decision to take a previously assigned airplane and assign it to somewhere else. There are financial consequences to that decision for other people - and they should not be exempt from them by hiding behind 'weather' as the cause.

They should also not make it so damn easy to discover it either.

In my book that is a delay caused for the convenience of the airline. It is NOT a weather delay.

I'm new [here] but I know full well what it takes to launch any airplane on any mission - from a 150 on 3 solos around the path to a multiple carrier simultaneous TOT military strike. Watching a 747 loaded from gate arrival to departure to Frankfurt was an amazing thing - the most amazing part was the guy with dot matrix printer generated list [that paper is unmistakable] checking off the containers being loaded. A dot matrix printed list? With all the tech available today? Then I realized that dot matrix list is the cheapest possible paper and cost per page, coupled with a pencil, has no issues from rain, hail, snow, -5F or 95F or being dropped in the ground or sat on in a cargo truck.
 
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You know what, we don't care, they took the job now do the damned job. If the wages aren't enough or the conditions suck, quit, it's not conscripted service. It's idiots who will take the jobs, including flight crew jobs, under these conditions that cause these conditions. If you let management f- you, they will, no worries. It's not like any of these conditions are a surprise found out about after signing a binding contract.

Last time I checked there Henning, there was no requirement that anyone actually work for the airlines. There are jobs, instead of the hard manual labor they can step across the threshold and work for the TSA. :mad2::mad2:
 
Nate..... Post # 14 was OUTSTANDING..:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:.

As I read it, I felt like I was living the event.........

Would make a great movie...:yesnod::yesnod::idea:
 
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My point was MERELY that the airline can not, in that circumstance, point to weather as the reason for the delay of my flight. The airplane that THEY scheduled [and the incoming connection that they have scheduled in the three days prior and the three days after] comes from city XXX. Today, they take that airplane, which is on time, and use it on another route for their convenience.

Now, I don't CARE that they took my airplane - its their airplane - they can do what they want with it. But they cannot - at that point- invoke their contract of carriage and contend that MY delay is the result of weather. My delay is the result of their making a business decision to take a previously assigned airplane and assign it to somewhere else. There are financial consequences to that decision for other people - and they should not be exempt from them by hiding behind 'weather' as the cause.

They should also not make it so damn easy to discover it either.

In my book that is a delay caused for the convenience of the airline. It is NOT a weather delay.

I'm new [here] but I know full well what it takes to launch any airplane on any mission - from a 150 on 3 solos around the path to a multiple carrier simultaneous TOT military strike. Watching a 747 loaded from gate arrival to departure to Frankfurt was an amazing thing - the most amazing part was the guy with dot matrix printer generated list [that paper is unmistakable] checking off the containers being loaded. A dot matrix printed list? With all the tech available today? Then I realized that dot matrix list is the cheapest possible paper and cost per page, coupled with a pencil, has no issues from rain, hail, snow, -5F or 95F or being dropped in the ground or sat on in a cargo truck.

Look, semantics of weather or whatever are simply that the team of dispatchers at the airline has to make some tough decisions...affecting customers, connecting flight logistics and yes, profits. I agree that employees could do better at candidly explaining the delays to customers, but alas, the employees themselves often don't know why some decisions are made - other than textbook bad weather. It's simply above their paygrade.
 
Look, semantics of weather or whatever are simply that the team of dispatchers at the airline has to make some tough decisions...affecting customers, connecting flight logistics and yes, profits. I agree that employees could do better at candidly explaining the delays to customers, but alas, the employees themselves often don't know why some decisions are made - other than textbook bad weather. It's simply above their paygrade.

and I'm not 'blaming' anyone - my entire point consists of the corporation, who owns the contract rights, cannot hide behind an event which IT created. . . .

There were 7 people at the counter who took a 745CT flight which was scheduled to arrive at 10pm to connect to a 1230am flight to Sydney. The agent told them a lie - from the corporate perspective. There was no 'weather delay,' there was an aircraft reaccommodation delay. If they miss their connection to Sydney its because the airline, for its convenience, takes an aircraft previously scheduled to operate an on-time departure to LAX and move it to another flight and shift a delay to their flight.

For the airline to blame weather in a blatant attempt to avoid any responsibility to passengers on this flight is simply wrong.

If you don't see it - you don't see it. This not about airlines using their airplanes to their best efforts - this is about avoiding liability for their choices in the face of adverse circumstances.
 
Airline delays and cancelations are almost never a result of someone not doing their damned job. And, if your diplomacy is any indication, management isn't the only group who would f-ck us. No worries.


It doesn't matter who caused the delay, delays are part of the job. Of course it's not just your management, it's the entire industry competing with each other who can go broke first.
 
It doesn't matter who caused the delay, delays are part of the job. Of course it's not just your management, it's the entire industry competing with each other who can go broke first.

you can't sell 100 seats on a 175 seat airplane for $150 when it costs $200 to operate a seat over the stage length. Because you are $5000 in the hole before you even operate the flight.

You have 75 seats to fill - lets assume you can sell 65 of them. Those 65 need to sell for at least $276 in order to break even on the flight. Most times the airlines don't manage to pull that off.

Instead they sell their tickets from the north to the south in winter for 4 times what they can sell them for in summer - hoping to make up the difference over time - like a retailer who does 60% of her business from Nov 20- Dec 24. You are open the rest of the year just to be open during the holiday period. . . .
 
and I'm not 'blaming' anyone - my entire point consists of the corporation, who owns the contract rights, cannot hide behind an event which IT created. . . .

There were 7 people at the counter who took a 745CT flight which was scheduled to arrive at 10pm to connect to a 1230am flight to Sydney. The agent told them a lie - from the corporate perspective. There was no 'weather delay,' there was an aircraft reaccommodation delay. If they miss their connection to Sydney its because the airline, for its convenience, takes an aircraft previously scheduled to operate an on-time departure to LAX and move it to another flight and shift a delay to their flight.

For the airline to blame weather in a blatant attempt to avoid any responsibility to passengers on this flight is simply wrong.

If you don't see it - you don't see it. This not about airlines using their airplanes to their best efforts - this is about avoiding liability for their choices in the face of adverse circumstances.

The airline doesn't sell anyone a ticket for a ride on a specific tail number. They sell a ticket for a city pair. Which aircraft takes you is entirely up to the airline. (Heck, in some cases people buy airplane tickets and end up on busses!)

You have knowledge that allows you to dig into the system and see which aircraft was originally scheduled to take you. Okay, but that doesn't matter as the tail number was never a guarantee to anybody, it was just an initial plan. The airline is under no obligation to provide that exact plane and hasn't violated anything if they change it.

If a massive storm moves over a hub city and disrupts 20% of their fleet schedule and massive replaning takes place system wide how is that not weather related?

Basically, if a plane breaks, crews run out of duty, or the airline cancels all flights to conduct a safety stand down then you are entitled to hotels and food vouchers. Otherwise you are not.
 
The airline doesn't sell anyone a ticket for a ride on a specific tail number. They sell a ticket for a city pair. Which aircraft takes you is entirely up to the airline. (Heck, in some cases people buy airplane tickets and end up on busses!)

You have knowledge that allows you to dig into the system and see which aircraft was originally scheduled to take you. Okay, but that doesn't matter as the tail number was never a guarantee to anybody, it was just an initial plan. The airline is under no obligation to provide that exact plane and hasn't violated anything if they change it.

Even better, your ticket only promises you transportation. Even if you buy a first class ticket, the airline can shove you into coach.
If a massive storm moves over a hub city and wipes out 20% of their fleet and massive replaning takes place system wide hoe is that not weather related?

Basically, if a plane breaks, crews run out of duty, or the airline cancels all flights to conduct a safety stand down then you are entitled to hotels and food vouchers. Otherwise you are not.

Technically, you're only entitled to hotels/food because the Contract of Carriage for the airline says so (and defines the terms). Most airlines would deny you hotels/food for weather or a safety stand down (or other force majure). Broken plane? Out of Duty Time? Maybe, depending on the airline. There is no entitlement embodied in federal law here (EU is somewhat different).
 
Even better, your ticket only promises you transportation. Even if you buy a first class ticket, the airline can shove you into coach.


Technically, you're only entitled to hotels/food because the Contract of Carriage for the airline says so (and defines the terms). Most airlines would deny you hotels/food for weather or a safety stand down (or other force majure). Broken plane? Out of Duty Time? Maybe, depending on the airline. There is no entitlement embodied in federal law here (EU is somewhat different).

This is true. I was more speaking of generally accepted practices. There's no law they have to give you food or shelter for any reason. All they HAVE to give you is transportation between the city pair or your money back.
 
This is true. I was more speaking of generally accepted practices. There's no law they have to give you food or shelter for any reason. All they HAVE to give you is transportation between the city pair or your money back.
The one thing that really bugs me is that you can buy an "un-refundable" ticket but that doesn't guarantee you a seat even if the plane flies (e.g. they can overbook even if all the tickets sold are un-refundable).
 
So I read through the initial comment- in so many words "they can't make me delayed for their benefit".

Is it possible- that weather was still a factor over the route of flight. Example: The bus #1234 was arriving from a non-affected region, it was scheduled to fly to a affected region, it was switched with bus #4321 (who is arriving from a affected region, and delayed) so that the other flight can depart on time. Had 1234 remained on its origional assignment, it would have been delayed regardless, because the affected region was, well still affected. Now, 1/2 your passengers are on time, the other half are delayed, but would have been regardless of when the bus arrived.
 
The one thing that really bugs me is that you can buy an "un-refundable" ticket but that doesn't guarantee you a seat even if the plane flies (e.g. they can overbook even if all the tickets sold are un-refundable).

Correct... but there are Federal regulations on overbooking to try and impose some kind of finanacial penalty on airlines that do have to bump you. EU is more strict than the US in that regard. Still, airlines try to offer (bribe) folks to give up their seats by offering "funny money" that's good for use on their airline... some airlines (including the one that bought out your hometown airline) put restrictions on the use of those vouchers. I won't say they're worthless, but are clearly less valuable than the compensation they must provide if they involuntarily bump you.

It might cost them $600 in funny money to get someone to give up the seat that they paid $200 for, but from the airline's perspective they're still ahead, and from the regulator's perspective they've "punished" the airline.
 
I heard that less than 10% of those flight vouchers actually get used.
 
I heard that less than 10% of those flight vouchers actually get used.

The only airline I have had honor their voucher without making me take a Red Eye on one of three non black out days of the year was SWA. I quit volunteering to get bumped or take an upgrade to first class on the flight I will be taking.
 
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