Aircraft Purchase Sales Agreement

[LevelWing]

I've found an aircraft that I might want to purchase and I want to put it through a pre-buy. The seller is going through a broker and it seemed as if the broker was on the up and up since he has a sales agreement, requires the money go through escrow and requires that a test flight be done to the potential buyer's satisfaction. I got the sales agreement and after taking a look at it I have some concerns.

First, the contract essentially reads that the aircraft will be purchased unless any un-airworthy items are found during pre-buy and the owner refuses to fix them. Further, this agreement states that the deposit will be placed into escrow and it is not refundable unless un-airworthy items are found. I was under the impression that if anything came back on pre-buy that the buyer wasn't satisfied with then the buyer could walk. My biggest concern with this is that I recently did a pre-buy on an aircraft that came back as being airworthy but it needed a significant amount of work and was only barely legally considered "airworthy".

The agreement also states which escrow company I will use. I'm not sure if this is common place or even a big deal, I just thought it odd that it was spelled out which escrow company I would have to use.

There are also time requirements placed on me, such as how much time I have to put the deposit into escrow, how long the pre-buy inspection is allowed to take (it's specifically stated) and how long I have to get the remaining funds into the escrow after the pre-buy inspection. The timelines shouldn't necessarily be a problem but there's no clauses in there that provide any exemptions so if something happened and the paperwork arrived a few days late because the finance company got behind, what then? One would hope the broker/seller would be understanding, but if it's in writing then I could lose my deposit.

What are some of your thoughts on this? Is this normal and I'm just reading way too much into it?

 

[pbramlett]

There are so many airplanes for sale. You don't have to do anything you are uncomfortable doing. You could just redact the areas you don't like and see what they say. You are the one with the money. You can always look elsewhere.

 

[BillTIZ]

There are so many airplanes for sale. You don't have to do anything you are uncomfortable doing. You could just redact the areas you don't like and see what they say. You are the one with the money. You can always look elsewhere.

I was thinking the same thing. Paperwork like that keeps the tire kickers away.
You're buying, he's selling. Depending how desperate he is to sell depends on who is in the drivers seat.

 

[poadeleted21]

You pick the escrow. You pick the mechanic (There's probably not an airworthy plane out there if you catch my drift). If you're not comfortable with the terms, don't agree to them. You have cash. You pick the terms. Because he's a broker doesn't mean he controls everything, he's going to err on the side of his client and cover both their asses. He's also human and needs to eat, and he's probably reasonable if he's a good broker. Not everyone was meant to be in business deals with each other. Fill out your own pre-purchase agreement (circle every option in your favor, just like he did on his form) , find a reputable escrow service, make sure you get a lien search and tell him that's what you'll agree to.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Its funny when I see hard nosed statements in a contract like that it brings out the hard ass in me and I will end up crossing out about half of their terms and we will spend hours going through line by line what is reasonable and what is unreasonable. Usually within the first hour they say, "what do you want?" Then tell them you want to buy a plane and if that falls through you do not want to lose your deposit.

The more the broker insists that it is all standard the more I insist that I am not standard and that it needs to be changed.

So put on your mike tysen belt and go to it. Any statements or terms you do not understand, ask them or someone about them.

Take a blue or red pen and cross through every sentence that you find objectionable. Then give that to the broker. If he refuses then go elsewhere.

Also if the plane is out of annual I would ask the seller to pay for the annual/prebuy. It is his bucket of bolts and his responsibility to convince me of its airworthiness before I am going to entertain buying it. Not only do you want all airworthy items performed but you also want any items required to bring it into at least average or high average condition. The longer it was out of annual or below average condition the higher I would consider that standard to reach or achieve to make me feel comfortable with the sale.

I would also want an appraisal by a certified appraiser that has nothing to do with the FBO or broker to establish worth..

I've found an aircraft that I might want to purchase and I want to put it through a pre-buy. The seller is going through a broker and it seemed as if the broker was on the up and up since he has a sales agreement, requires the money go through escrow and requires that a test flight be done to the potential buyer's satisfaction. I got the sales agreement and after taking a look at it I have some concerns.

First, the contract essentially reads that the aircraft will be purchased unless any un-airworthy items are found during pre-buy and the owner refuses to fix them. Further, this agreement states that the deposit will be placed into escrow and it is not refundable unless un-airworthy items are found. I was under the impression that if anything came back on pre-buy that the buyer wasn't satisfied with then the buyer could walk. My biggest concern with this is that I recently did a pre-buy on an aircraft that came back as being airworthy but it needed a significant amount of work and was only barely legally considered "airworthy".

The agreement also states which escrow company I will use. I'm not sure if this is common place or even a big deal, I just thought it odd that it was spelled out which escrow company I would have to use.

There are also time requirements placed on me, such as how much time I have to put the deposit into escrow, how long the pre-buy inspection is allowed to take (it's specifically stated) and how long I have to get the remaining funds into the escrow after the pre-buy inspection. The timelines shouldn't necessarily be a problem but there's no clauses in there that provide any exemptions so if something happened and the paperwork arrived a few days late because the finance company got behind, what then? One would hope the broker/seller would be understanding, but if it's in writing then I could lose my deposit.

What are some of your thoughts on this? Is this normal and I'm just reading way too much into it?

 

[Kelvin]

Take a blue or red pen and cross through every sentence that you find objectionable. Then give that to the broker. If he refuses then go elsewhere.

That.

 

[N747JB]

I think a lot of this is pretty normal stuff, you need timing and money issues spelled out, most of the escrow/title companies operate pretty much the same, I've used 3 or 4 different ones, no biggie unless you have a reason to use a different one.
Barely airworthy and airworthy mean the same thing, it's airworthy:wink2: Unairworthy and almost airworthy also mean the same thing, it's not airworthy :wink2:
The sellers need a commitment that you will buy it if it's as represented, right? And you need an out if it isn't, right?
I would certainly edit any portion of the contract that you are uncomfortable with and tell the broker your reasoning, most brokers are interested in closing a deal and should work with you until you're comfortable.
Lots of unrealistic advice about walking away if the sellers don't bow to your every whim, if it's the right airplane at the right price, you may want to do a little give and take.
Good luck with the purchase!

I've found an aircraft that I might want to purchase and I want to put it through a pre-buy. The seller is going through a broker and it seemed as if the broker was on the up and up since he has a sales agreement, requires the money go through escrow and requires that a test flight be done to the potential buyer's satisfaction. I got the sales agreement and after taking a look at it I have some concerns.

First, the contract essentially reads that the aircraft will be purchased unless any un-airworthy items are found during pre-buy and the owner refuses to fix them. Further, this agreement states that the deposit will be placed into escrow and it is not refundable unless un-airworthy items are found. I was under the impression that if anything came back on pre-buy that the buyer wasn't satisfied with then the buyer could walk. My biggest concern with this is that I recently did a pre-buy on an aircraft that came back as being airworthy but it needed a significant amount of work and was only barely legally considered "airworthy".

The agreement also states which escrow company I will use. I'm not sure if this is common place or even a big deal, I just thought it odd that it was spelled out which escrow company I would have to use.

There are also time requirements placed on me, such as how much time I have to put the deposit into escrow, how long the pre-buy inspection is allowed to take (it's specifically stated) and how long I have to get the remaining funds into the escrow after the pre-buy inspection. The timelines shouldn't necessarily be a problem but there's no clauses in there that provide any exemptions so if something happened and the paperwork arrived a few days late because the finance company got behind, what then? One would hope the broker/seller would be understanding, but if it's in writing then I could lose my deposit.

What are some of your thoughts on this? Is this normal and I'm just reading way too much into it?

 

[asgcpa]

Its funny when I see hard nosed statements in a contract like that it brings out the hard ass in me and I will end up crossing out about half of their terms and we will spend hours going through line by line what is reasonable and what is unreasonable. Usually within the first hour they say, "what do you want?" Then tell them you want to buy a plane and if that falls through you do not want to lose your deposit.

The more the broker insists that it is all standard the more I insist that I am not standard and that it needs to be changed.

So put on your mike tysen belt and go to it. Any statements or terms you do not understand, ask them or someone about them.

Take a blue or red pen and cross through every sentence that you find objectionable. Then give that to the broker. If he refuses then go elsewhere.

Also if the plane is out of annual I would ask the seller to pay for the annual/prebuy. It is his bucket of bolts and his responsibility to convince me of its airworthiness before I am going to entertain buying it. Not only do you want all airworthy items performed but you also want any items required to bring it into at least average or high average condition. The longer it was out of annual or below average condition the higher I would consider that standard to reach or achieve to make me feel comfortable with the sale.

I would also want an appraisal by a certified appraiser that has nothing to do with the FBO or broker to establish worth..

Tony, like the way you think.

 

[asgcpa]

You pick the escrow. You pick the mechanic (There's probably not an airworthy plane out there if you catch my drift). If you're not comfortable with the terms, don't agree to them. You have cash. You pick the terms. Because he's a broker doesn't mean he controls everything, he's going to err on the side of his client and cover both their asses. He's also human and needs to eat, and he's probably reasonable if he's a good broker. Not everyone was meant to be in business deals with each other. Fill out your own pre-purchase agreement (circle every option in your favor, just like he did on his form) , find a reputable escrow service, make sure you get a lien search and tell him that's what you'll agree to.

That's how I bought houses. ****ed off a lawyer when I asked if he was pushing a title company because he got a kickback maybe? Asked him how he would explain to his client why I backed out of the deal since they did not agree with the terms of my offer. That shut him up fast.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

A pre printed contract is going to have been drawn up and written from the brokers point of view to protect him, his commission and the seller. It is seldom going to be balanced to the needs of the buyer. It will be very one sided. You are better off not dealing with a brother rather than submit to his ridiculous demands (sometimes). You should be able to negotiate any term that you do not feel comfortable with or do not understand.

An example: Before I bought my first a/c I found this broker in MN and he had a scheme not unlike baron Thomas. Real low asking price but no N numbers and he would not let you see the airplane, logs, give you much more information about the plane until you posted a refundable deposit and then you could go across country to see the plane or have more information than was on an index card. I did a local search for his zip code and he has complaints for not returning deposits. Needless to say when he would not budge from that position I moved on to other aircraft.

The next month I found my Cherokee right at my home airport. So for most of us looking for some what available aircraft like 172's, Cherokees, Arrows and such there is always another airplane down the line. Do not allow yourself to fall in love until the deal is done.

I made the mistake of taking my wife to a car dealer one time. Never again.

 

[midlifeflyer]

A pre printed contract is going to have been drawn up and written from the brokers point of view to protect him, his commission and the seller. It is seldom going to be balanced to the needs of the buyer. It will be very one sided. You are better off not dealing with a brother rather than submit to his ridiculous demands (sometimes). You should be able to negotiate any term that you do not feel comfortable with or do not understand

These types of terms are definitely negotiable. But beware of deleting provisions that one doesn't understand. I've seen contracts with important provisions deleted because a party who would benefit by the provision wanted to delete it as confusing or not important. Unfortunately that's not an unusual situation when a deal breaks down and results in a lawsuit.

 

[mtuomi]

The risk buyer has with a contract like that is, that if the plane has $80k worth of issues that need rectifying ASAP, but none too serious to render the plane unairworthy, it would be "airworthy" and he would lose his deposit if he pulls away from the deal.
I would never sign a contract with such binary terms.

 

[LevelWing]

The risk buyer has with a contract like that is, that if the plane has $80k worth of issues that need rectifying ASAP, but none too serious to render the plane unairworthy, it would be "airworthy" and he would lose his deposit if he pulls away from the deal.
I would never sign a contract with such binary terms.

That's my concern.

Thanks for the responses, I'll send the agreement back with my proposed changes and see how it goes from there. I'm not in a hurry for a plane and there's plenty out there, so if this doesn't work then I'll find another one. I just wasn't sure if these were standard agreement terms.

 

[Frank]

Airworthiness seems to me to be a poor standard, perhaps even vague enough to cause litigation. Is an airplane airworthy if there is no MEL, and the vacuum instruments, radios, and lights are all inoperative? What if there are obvious undocumented repairs, that appear from the outside to have been made properly? How about an engine that had a crankcase repair by welding, that the seller failed to disclose?

I don't have good wording for such a contract, but I think using airworthy/not airworthy is a poor standard for purchase inspections. I also do not like the idea of having my mechanic get overly picky in declaring what is or is not airworthy. Some things are judgment calls. Suppose you buy a plane after the mechanic writes up a borderline condition, then you buy the plane. You get an annual from someone else, who says the condition is acceptable. Then the condition leads to some failure and resultant damage to the aircraft or persons. Will you now be hung out to dry for flying with what you had been informed was a non airworthy condition?

It seems to me that the best advice is to get a prepurchase inspection from a mechanic you trust. If that mechanic has an IA, he can then do an annual inspection after you purchase the aircraft, and he will be familiar enough with the aircraft that he can do a very efficient annual.

When I took real estate law, our professor suggested that buyers should insist on an inspection clause requiring the buyer to be satisfied with the results of the inspection. If the buyer is not satisfied, then the transaction can be cancelled and escrow funds returned. This makes at least as much sense for aircraft purchases.

 

[poadeleted20]

First, the contract essentially reads that the aircraft will be purchased unless any un-airworthy items are found during pre-buy and the owner refuses to fix them. Further, this agreement states that the deposit will be placed into escrow and it is not refundable unless un-airworthy items are found. I was under the impression that if anything came back on pre-buy that the buyer wasn't satisfied with then the buyer could walk.

That depends on what the seller and buyer agree to in the contract. Sounds like this contract reads otherwise. If you don't like that, don't sign it until it's revised to your satisfaction.

My biggest concern with this is that I recently did a pre-buy on an aircraft that came back as being airworthy but it needed a significant amount of work and was only barely legally considered "airworthy".

You address that in the contract with appropriate language.

The agreement also states which escrow company I will use. I'm not sure if this is common place or even a big deal, I just thought it odd that it was spelled out which escrow company I would have to use.

That's probably something the broker inserted because that they've worked with that escrow company before and it's convenient to their location. Again, if you don't like it, don't sign it.

There are also time requirements placed on me, such as how much time I have to put the deposit into escrow, how long the pre-buy inspection is allowed to take (it's specifically stated) and how long I have to get the remaining funds into the escrow after the pre-buy inspection. The timelines shouldn't necessarily be a problem but there's no clauses in there that provide any exemptions so if something happened and the paperwork arrived a few days late because the finance company got behind, what then? One would hope the broker/seller would be understanding, but if it's in writing then I could lose my deposit.

That's right. So if you're uncomfortable with it, have appropriate language inserted to relieve your discomfort.

What you need to understand is that proposed contracts are just that -- proposals. You examine it, have your attorney prepare recommended changes as needed, and then send it back to the other party. When both of you are happy, you both sign it. If you and the other party can't come to an agreement, then you walk away from the deal.

 

[Jeff K]

My agreements allow me to get out for any reason after the prebuy. Stops any he said/she said. I pay for the prebuy and I pay for any transportation costs involved there and back and they are pre-paid to the seller. My mechanic writes no paper on the airplane that would threaten to deem it unairworthy during the prebuy phase. If it passes the prebuy we immediately begin an annual (this is all pre-agreed on in writing).

Also, and this is an ongoing problem with most brokers, under NO circumstances do I allow a broker to hold a deposit. In those cases I use escrow. If they refuse, the deal is over.

 

[Frank]

My agreements allow me to get out for any reason after the prebuy. Stops any he said/she said. I pay for the prebuy and I pay for any transportation costs involved there and back and they are pre-paid to the seller. My mechanic writes no paper on the airplane that would threaten to deem it unairworthy during the prebuy phase. If it passes the prebuy we immediately begin an annual (this is all pre-agreed on in writing).

Also, and this is an ongoing problem with most brokers, under NO circumstances do I allow a broker to hold a deposit. In those cases I use escrow. If they refuse, the deal is over.

That makes sense, in general. What happens if the prebuy mechanic really finds something dangerous, like a control cable about to let go?

 

[jesse]

Change the terms as you see appropriate and if they don't accept them walk (they will). They want to sell the things as long as what you ask for isn't completely unreasonable they'll change them.

You'd be surprised how many contracts out there you can get changed if you're persistent enough.

 

[Jeff K]

That makes sense, in general. What happens if the prebuy mechanic really finds something dangerous, like a control cable about to let go?

That's entirely up to you and the seller. You can walk, take it as is, or have the seller pony up some money.

But that's exactly why I like open ended (or "at will") prebuys.... I'd not walk away from an airplane that had one bad control cable... those things happen. On the other hand, an airplane with 10 bad control cables would tell me a story of differed maintenance. And then I'm asking myself what else will I miss? (and your mechanic will miss things... accept that right now).

In my prebuy (with the plane flown to me) I'm looking for any big ticket items/air-frame specific issues and also to get a flavor as to how the airplane was maintained. I really don't like negotiating after the fact... either the airplane is as represented or not.

On my annual, I generally negotiate a fixed number from the seller to handle squawks. My feeling in every step the seller has to have skin in the game... I'm the one spending the money to look at it, do the prebuy etc so they need to not waste my time with pieces of junk they know are not as represented.

Yet you have an obligation to the seller. The reality is most seller's are numb from tire kickers. You owe it to the seller to have your finance's in order and be able to prove it. When you can send a seller your bank statement or pre-approval letter... things go alot better. The seller's airplane doesn't leave the ground to my shop until I've funded the escrow fully, all liens are cleared... and all contingency's are clearly spelled out.

Now that's not for everyone... but I like a higher sense of security then most and I am willing to pay for it (buyer funds escrow cost). The AOPA service is really nice and I've used it twice.

Oh, I should also mention I also do a "pre" pre-buy if the plane isn't local to me.... I hired a local mechanic to spend an hour with the plane/logs/take pictures before the aircraft is flown to me. This weeds out the complete pieces of garbage.

 

[N747JB]

"All installed systems functioning as designed" or some such language to protect the buyer if the number 2 radio is inop or scratchy.
You can add that if the seller declines to fix the squawks, he is to pay for the pre-buy and expenses. Gives him a little skin in the game as well.
Lot's of different ways to do it.

 

[Frank]

That's entirely up to you and the seller. You can walk, take it as is, or have the seller pony up some money.

But that's exactly why I like open ended (or "at will") prebuys.... I'd not walk away from an airplane that had one bad control cable... those things happen. On the other hand, an airplane with 10 bad control cables would tell me a story of differed maintenance. And then I'm asking myself what else will I miss? (and your mechanic will miss things... accept that right now).

In my prebuy (with the plane flown to me) I'm looking for any big ticket items/air-frame specific issues and also to get a flavor as to how the airplane was maintained. I really don't like negotiating after the fact... either the airplane is as represented or not.

On my annual, I generally negotiate a fixed number from the seller to handle squawks. My feeling in every step the seller has to have skin in the game... I'm the one spending the money to look at it, do the prebuy etc so they need to not waste my time with pieces of junk they know are not as represented.

Yet you have an obligation to the seller. The reality is most seller's are numb from tire kickers. You owe it to the seller to have your finance's in order and be able to prove it. When you can send a seller your bank statement or pre-approval letter... things go alot better. The seller's airplane doesn't leave the ground to my shop until I've funded the escrow fully, all liens are cleared... and all contingency's are clearly spelled out.

Now that's not for everyone... but I like a higher sense of security then most and I am willing to pay for it (buyer funds escrow cost). The AOPA service is really nice and I've used it twice.

Oh, I should also mention I also do a "pre" pre-buy if the plane isn't local to me.... I hired a local mechanic to spend an hour with the plane/logs/take pictures before the aircraft is flown to me. This weeds out the complete pieces of garbage.

What I was getting at was if you decide to back out because of a lot of non-serious issues, but you find something that would make it dangerous for the seller to fly the plane back to the home field. What can you and your mechanic do to ensure that the seller is informed and that you have proof the seller was informed? This is not an annual inspection, so the seller/owner may not want a discrepancy list.

 

[InsuranceGuy]

What kind of airplane is it ?

 

[Jeff K]

What I was getting at was if you decide to back out because of a lot of non-serious issues, but you find something that would make it dangerous for the seller to fly the plane back to the home field. What can you and your mechanic do to ensure that the seller is informed and that you have proof the seller was informed? This is not an annual inspection, so the seller/owner may not want a discrepancy list.

I'm confused here... is your interest in choosing an airplane to buy or in grounding the seller's airplane you decide to pass on?

Most smart seller's are ONLY going to let you do a pre-buy if it doesn't involve the mechanic writing anything in the logbook. I can't speak to the legality of this... just that it's really common. And it makes sense... what seller in his right mind would want his airplane grounded at a remote shop until supposed airworthy issues are cleared? All I care about from a pre-buy is the condition report. That is what I am paying for.

Of course you TELL the seller it's your mechanics opinion the airplane has some safety issues. If he/she then wants to involve the mechanic that is on them. I'm already on to the next airplane at that point...

 

[Frank]

I'm confused here... is your interest in choosing an airplane to buy or in grounding the seller's airplane you decide to pass on?

Most smart seller's are ONLY going to let you do a pre-buy if it doesn't involve the mechanic writing anything in the logbook. I can't speak to the legality of this... just that it's really common. And it makes sense... what seller in his right mind would want his airplane grounded at a remote shop until supposed airworthy issues are cleared? All I care about from a pre-buy is the condition report. That is what I am paying for.

Of course you TELL the seller it's your mechanics opinion the airplane has some safety issues. If he/she then wants to involve the mechanic that is on them. I'm already on to the next airplane at that point...

I am worried about liability if the plane goes down. A jury may find that a mechanic had a duty to inform the owner of the aircraft. If I have a duty like that I want proof to cover my hindquarters.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Last time I checked, as a pilot, I have say in what is airworthy or not. The IA's opinion isn't the only one that matters. If the contract is vague and doesn't specify who makes the airworthiness determination, then the pilot/buyer can make that (reasonable) determination independent of the IA.

Sometimes, vague contract language can be advantageous.

 

[Frank]

Last time I checked, as a pilot, I have say in what is airworthy or not. The IA's opinion isn't the only one that matters. If the contract is vague and doesn't specify who makes the airworthiness determination, then the pilot/buyer can make that (reasonable) determination independent of the IA.

Sometimes, vague contract language can be advantageous.

This is not an airworthiness determination issue. It is an obligation to disclose information that a reasonable person with a mechanic's qualifications would disclose to the owner of an aircraft with a potential safety hazard. Whether or not the aircraft is airworthy some conditions a mechanic might observe can be both hidden and dangerous. This is not about compliance with Federal Regulations. Compliance with Federal Regulations does not automatically mean that a State court has to find that you were not negligent. You can be 100% in compliance with all Federal Regulations and still be negligent. If I were to perform a prebuy inspection and detect a serious threat to safety, I would not only want to convey that information, but I would also demand a receipt for that information from the owner. I wold not feel duty bound to report any further to the FAA or other authorities.

 

[Jeff K]

I am worried about liability if the plane goes down. A jury may find that a mechanic had a duty to inform the owner of the aircraft. If I have a duty like that I want proof to cover my hindquarters.

I don't know, maybe hold up a sign next to the owners head saying the plane is not airworthy and take a picture?

 

[poadeleted20]

I am worried about liability if the plane goes down. A jury may find that a mechanic had a duty to inform the owner of the aircraft. If I have a duty like that I want proof to cover my hindquarters.

If that worries you, you don't have to put something in the logbook -- a separate letter to the owner detailing your findings (copy to your files) is all you need to cover that potential contingency. That's a letter I as the buyer paying you to do the pre-purchase inspection would expect you to be writing to me, anyway, so it's just a matter of giving a copy to the seller, too. The FAA regulations only require you to write in the aircraft maintenance records if you overhauled, rebuilt, or performed "maintenance" or "preventive maintenance," and it's not likely you did any of those during a pre-purchase inspection.

 

[Jeff K]

You'll want immediate proof of delivery on any letter as well just in case that first flight back ends up as a smoldering heap at the end of the runway. But I'm not a lawyer... it just seems to me a "letter" without proof of delivery might be questioned at any trial. I think Frank also mentioned this:

If I were to perform a prebuy inspection and detect a serious threat to safety, I would not only want to convey that information, but I would also demand a receipt for that information from the owner.

And he can "demand" all he wants, but alot of sellers wouldn't sign such a letter. I actually wasn't kidding about taking a picture... maybe a video while the seller is being told (in addition to asking for a signed receipt). At a minimum I want someone next to me when I inform the seller of the safety issues.

And none of this is going to stop lawsuite if someone dies. Just provides a defense.

 

[poadeleted20]

You'll want immediate proof of delivery on any letter as well just in case that first flight back ends up as a smoldering heap at the end of the runway.

You would need only prove it "more likely than not" that you delivered this letter, and your testimony and that of the buyer along who witnessed the delivery along with your file copy would, I think, be enough to meet that standard of proof if the seller then crashes the plane and then tries to claim the mechanic doing the pre-purchase never told him about the defects that mechanic noted.

 

[LevelWing]

The broker was willing to make the changes but the owner was not. The owner wasn't willing to fix anything that came back on a pre-buy, airworthy related or not. Because of that, I walked away from the deal and the broker didn't blame me. That leads me to believe that there were issues with the plane and the owner was just trying to get rid of it.

 

[poadeleted21]

The broker was willing to make the changes but the owner was not. The owner wasn't willing to fix anything that came back on a pre-buy, airworthy related or not. Because of that, I walked away from the deal and the broker didn't blame me. That leads me to believe that there were issues with the plane and the owner was just trying to get rid of it.

And that is how you save money during the purchasing process of a plane. I loaded myself and my mechanic up one too many times without any sort of agreement beforehand. Well played sir.

 

[poadeleted20]

And that is how you save money during the purchasing process of a plane. I loaded myself and my mechanic up one too many times without any sort of agreement beforehand. Well played sir.

Amen -- well played, indeed. No "pigs in pokes".

 

[Jeff K]

You would need only prove it "more likely than not" that you delivered this letter.

But that was my point.... how? The seller died in the crash at the end of the runway 10 minutes after he refused to sign the letter.... yet still departed despite the warning. The mechanics getting sued by the estate no matter what. You just sent the notice via certified mail the same day.... so who is to say it wasn't in reaction to the crash?

That is why I suggested just videoing the interaction if it involved any issues of safety that should be disclosed. You are protecting yourself just as much against your own mechanics failure to disclose as your own.

I'd actually never considered this... but the OP brought up a good point. Some of these seller's are cowboys. Also explains to me why alot of mechanics won't do prebuys.

 

[N747JB]

Good that you found out the seller was a dreamer before you invested too much time and money! It's funny as a seller, I've always wanted to make sure the plane was right when the buyer got it, and as a buyer I've pretty much had the same experience. I've only spent money one one plane that was "not as advertised" I took a 414A to pre-buy, it needed 12 cylinders and about $15K worth of repairs I didn't give the seller a chance to fix it, just paid my bill and sent it home.

The broker was willing to make the changes but the owner was not. The owner wasn't willing to fix anything that came back on a pre-buy, airworthy related or not. Because of that, I walked away from the deal and the broker didn't blame me. That leads me to believe that there were issues with the plane and the owner was just trying to get rid of it.

 

[poadeleted20]

But that was my point.... how? The seller died in the crash at the end of the runway 10 minutes after he refused to sign the letter.... yet still departed despite the warning. The mechanics getting sued by the estate no matter what.

On what grounds? Without the dead pilot to testify, there is no evidence that the dead pilot wasn't warned, and if he flew the plane despite the warning, then the mechanic fulfilled his duty to warn.

You just sent the notice via certified mail the same day.... so who is to say it wasn't in reaction to the crash?

The mechanic who testifies that he warned the pilot, and the potential buyer who witnessed the warning.

Really, Jeff, without the dead pilot to testify he wasn't warned, there is no case at all.

 

[Jeff K]

On what grounds? Without the dead pilot to testify, there is no evidence that the dead pilot wasn't warned, and if he flew the plane despite the warning, then the mechanic fulfilled his duty to warn.

The mechanic who testifies that he warned the pilot, and the potential buyer who witnessed the warning.

Yet the OP didn't want this... wanted a signed statement from the seller. If the seller refuses... then what? I'm just saying that's a bit too convenient for unsupported self serving testimony to be produced after the fact in the context of the OP's question.

Remember that absence of evidence is not evidence yet evidence of absence can be. A video of the pilot being informed and/or refusing to the sign the notification would be alot more compelling then a Mechanic's word who was sued.

Really, Jeff, without the dead pilot to testify he wasn't warned, there is no case at all.

I think the dead pilot's estate and family might disagree there.... and certainly would try if evidence of mechanical issues came up. The last one to wrench on an airplane is the one who needs to be most worried. Then it's going to be a he said/she said issue. We all have smart phones... if someone is really worried that they have a cowboy that is still going to take off in a death trap...why not whip it out and tell them again on camera the plane is not safe and they shouldn't depart? I sure would if my hands had been in that airplane.