Aircraft purchase questions

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Supereri, May 30, 2022.

  1. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I think I have finally narrowed my search down to a Cessna 182. I've been looking for P and Q models, but the prices are pretty high. So I found an older model with low airframe hours, midtime engine (~900), and a new glass panel. My concern is how much am I really missing between say an F model and a P. I know there's the tube steel landing gear with 150 extra useful. I would like more useful for my longer trips, just not sure how often I will truly fly 400 mile flights with full seats. Even then is a fuel stop in the middle that big of a deal for the rare occasion I do? Maybe I'm placing too much weight (pun intended) on my 5% mission.

    Second the airplane is from the midwest and sat for 15 years or so. It was purchased, refreshed, and returned to service a year or two ago with approximately 200 hours since. Am I asking for trouble or has the time since and a good pre-buy limited that concern a bit?
     
  2. edessa

    edessa Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Did the purchaser buy it, refresh it to turn it and make money? Do you think he would have done the minimums or skip a few things to make a profit?
    Have someone perform a good prebuy and you should be good.
     
  3. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

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    I'd be concerned about the engine if it sat that long. Engines are a crapshoot. But sitting outside for 15 years letting birds, bugs, critters and elements get at er is different than sitting in a heated hangar.
     
  4. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    The seller told me it was hangered during that time.
     
  5. Tom Wells

    Tom Wells Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Same thing others recommend.
    Thorough prebuy. Hope for the best with the engine but plan for the worst, you just don't know.
    I'd make sure it is current on all the ADs as well, and if it's not, negotiate down accordingly. I didn't, and I paid for it (my plane only flew like 200h in the 20 years before I bought it! And it had accrued a few ADs during that time). If the guy did a pencil-whipped annual to bring it out of its 15 year hibernation, you could end up with a big bill later to get it current.
     
  6. Randomskylane

    Randomskylane Pre-takeoff checklist

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    400 miles is basically 3 hours…on a seat you won’t find in front of your tv.

    so the answers depend on age size weight bladder control restless legs etc and ability to sit upright (for you and passengers)
     
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  7. Country Flier

    Country Flier Line Up and Wait

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    But after 200 hours, you should have run into any gremlins that exist from the sitting.
     
  8. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Hire a mechanic and take him with you to look the plane over before you sign an purchase agreement and have the pre purchase inspection.

    Opening the cowling and a couple inspection holes goes a long way.
     
  9. sourdough44

    sourdough44 En-Route

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    Besides the 15 year sit time, what’s the year of the last engine overhaul? That is a long time.
     
  10. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    It’s entertaining to split hairs and research the small variations between different variants, but your top three criteria should be:

    1. condition
    2. Condition
    3. CONDITION

    Find the plane with the panel you want and the very best, consistently flown, condition. DO NOT buy a plane that has set up for a long period ESPECIALLY in a high humidity area.
     
  11. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I just did a 4.1 in a 172 and could have gone more. So I won't generally be the limiting factor. Now the wife, that's another story. I think a fuel stop would be welcome for her. When we travel by car she is looking to stop at the 2.5-3 hour mark, so a 3 hour leg would be about max for her.
     
  12. Jackk

    Jackk Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It will need a pre buy, trying to determine the condition by how long it say, or where, is futile.
     
  13. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    This has 90% the panel I want and the price is such that I would be able to make it 100%(Replace the GPS/Com for a GPS/Nav/Com(likely an ifd440)) Honestly I couldn't afford a P or Q with the same panel. So my decision is this F with the panel I want or a P/Q with an old steam gauge panel. With the exception of the extra 150 useful I'm not seeing many changes that are that deal breakers for me. The one change I see that I wonder about is the increased width of the horizontal stabilizer in 1965.
     
  14. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    A pre-buy is non-negotiable. This will be my first plane and I'm not qualified to inspect it at the level it needs to be inspected.
     
  15. Magman

    Magman Line Up and Wait

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    Pre buy yes. But one tailored specifically to a 182 is needed as is the Tech.

    If the tanks were not filled during hibernation the bladders may dry rot at the top.There is a procedure to check this.

    Another item on my list would be the valve guides .

    Prop Overhaul calendar time often overlooked.
     
  16. somorris

    somorris En-Route

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    Good luck!
     
  17. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I was told they replaced a cylinder during annual due to low compression. Valve guides would show up in oil consumption and possibly oil soaked lower plugs?
     
  18. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    TBOs are in years as well as hours, though we usually don' consider that. If it's been 17+ years without overhaul, I'd think of it as well pass TBO, which it is, I believe. The recent 200 hours is a little encouraging, but not that much.
     
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  19. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are significant differences between a P/Q and an F model:

    1. Flaps won't have presets. You have to hold it down yourself while they move. One hand will be occupied.
    2. F came with a generator, not an alternator.
    3. Landing gear is tougher but more narrow.
    4. The horizontal stabilizer is narrower. When you get slow, it matters.
    5. Windows are different arrangement.
    6. Seats aren't as adjustable. They're fine, but...
    7. The wings are the original shape. The P and later models essentially stole Horton/Robertson's shape.

    So, yeah, an F flies the same except in slow flight, take off, and landing. It's still a 182, through and through. Best bang for your buck is to get VGs.
     
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  20. xander75

    xander75 Filing Flight Plan

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    if i may pass on my experience from recently buying a plane (albeit not a c182, but functionally no difference). it is very easy to get mislead by the avionics and look at all the colorful displays and think the plane is in great shape therefore. now here is the kicker, i went to visit a plane that *looked* in great shape, yes it had a gear up landing, restored etc most awesome avionics. during the test flgiht the engine monitor reported an error with one cylinder, guess what, the valve plopped!! what is most most important on a plane is the engine and so many have said, which i found true also, a plane needs to fly, if it sits, it accumulates stuff you dont want. so while even a test flight or a inspection may come clean, i would *minimally* ask for and do an oil inspection (cost about $30) so you can see what contaminates have built up in the oil. cross check that with the most recent oil change as that can hide a lot of stuff also.

    I can feel you though that this dream of owning is just amazing, it took me nearly a year to find my right baby and i am very thankful i walked from the ones i let go... be ready to walk away. my dad always says, if the first pass is incorrect, the whole band will march out of tune. and as annoying as that saying is (believe me :)), I feel you have a few "passes" there not so great (the model, the long time stored). I would probably continue to look especially if it is far away.

    may i ask what your budget is? I know a seller in MA with a C182/g1000. i flown it myself, its pricy (~250k or so) but she's a beauty.
     
  21. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    1) Noted, not sure it's a huge deal for me.
    2) Generator has been replaced with an alternator.
    3) Noted.
    4) this is the one I'm a bit concerned with. I'm a heavy dude, so flying with a forward CG will be fairly common for me.
    5) I wish it had an opening copilots window, but other than that not a huge deal for me.
    6) They adjust vertically and fore/aft. Does the P/Q also adjust the seatback angle?
    7) Not sure how big of a deal this is.

    Ultimately I'm in the analysis phase where I can get a reasonably nice F with full glass panel or a full steam gauge P/Q for 10k-30k+ more. The P/Q generally has more useful which would be nice, but I think it's fairly rare that will be an issue for me. It's my first airplane, but I like the idea of a fully modern panel with an airframe that still does my mission in largely the same manner as a newer P/Q.

    I know people have different priorities, but am I completely off base in the F and P/Q being largely similar in the capabilities?
     
  22. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    The engine has done over 200 hours in the past 2 years since being removed from storage. 1 cylinder was replaced due to low compression at the most recent annual. I'm told, and will ask for, the oil analysis that have been performed since being removed from storage. I'm told there have been several and that things "look good".

    I wish I could afford a G1000 182, but my budget is less than 200k. At 200k I'd be looking for a partner or two and the initial purchase would really be a stretch. Realistically I'm in the mid 100k range.
     
  23. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I'm flying out next weekend to see the plane in person. The videos and pics I've seen look pretty good.
     
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  24. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I fly a 205. My horizontal stabilizer is smaller than a 182P. I do have a Horton but no VGs. You learn to quickly put trim full on final. That and landing with some power.

    Sounds like you have newer, "fancy" seats.

    I would spend money on VGs if you're really worried. Other than that, avionics cost a truck load and age does not. Solid prebuy recommended.
     
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  25. Sinistar

    Sinistar En-Route

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    When did the skylanes get the extra 4" width...is the F model in that older original width group?

    Even many of the P models do not have copilot side opening windows.

    Sitting that long I would have a real good look at the exhaust. Hard to imagine one or both mags aren't in need of something. Others mentioned prop but they seem pretty robust and no major ADs as I recall (2 bladed version). Primer plunger wouldn't surprise if it leaked. We left out fuel selector on both for years. First time we switched A&P he found that in off position it was leaking fuel down below at a pretty alarming rate. If it was me I would pull the spinner, make sure enough of those paper disc thingys are in place and that the spinner isn't almost worn clean thru. Check cabin doors and baggage door to ensure they still close up nice. Many a baggage door doesn't seal after people plug in battery tenders and close door on them. Speaking of battery, not at all uncommon to have a battery tray all destroyed from battery acid. Make sure the old ELT is still working or have an agreement since a newer one might be required. Windhsield crazing over the years happens. Have someone shine a light across it or get it out looking thru it at sun. You hear lots of people asking to find a replacement cowl flap as theirs has fallen off. Check the hinges and actuator really good. Check the door locks, many fail. Make sure you get stuff you should like the correct POH, gust lock and travel tow bar. Your call if you prefer an oil filter adapter or screen but if its not what you like it might be costly to switch back. Definitely make sure the fuel tank caps aren't the "killer caps". Obviously look for firewall damage from heavy nose wheel strike landings. There's also a c shaped piece between strut and lower fairing that I believe is like $2k to replace. If you get it, check with Cessna they still might provide one seat rail floor safety belt at no charge, they are awesome compared to that hideous safety pin. I am not find of the starter adapter but not much you can do to check it other than make sure no leaks by the alternator drive pulley.

    We've had some of the above. Our latest mechanic is awesome and has mentioned many of these while doing the annual together.

    I hope it works out. Other than lower TBO, I just wish it was a 180mph plane instead of 150mph plane.
     
  26. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    Lots of great info. Both mags replaced with overhauled about a year and a half ago. Fuel selector valve rebuilt at last annual. New windshield. New battery and new elt. Funny you mention the cowl flap. I talked to him last night and they just lost one during the last flight.
     
  27. Pinecone

    Pinecone Line Up and Wait

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    YES.

    I was recently looking a very nice looking (paint, interior, avionics) plane. Luckily my guy did a log book check to start the process and found some VERY disturbing things about the engine. The broker did not want to here an offer based on the engine. But another person on another forum also looked at the same plane and saw the same thing.

    A few red flags. As far as we could tell, the original engine, only "overhauled" and over 3,000 hours. Last "overhauled" in 2010 by a ship known for doing the minimum work to state in the logs, "Overhauled" with no details. Same shop "overhauled" the engine again in 2011. WTF?! In 2019 all 6 cylinders were off and "overhauled" by a pretty good shop, but in 2020 and 2021 during each annual, a cylinder was off for "work."

    It is now being advertised with a fresh overhaul. My guy and I think it needs a new or reman engine to start fresh.
     
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  28. ServoB17

    ServoB17 Pre-Flight

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    The fuselage was widened with the E model in '62. And even my '78 Q has a fixed copilot window. It's the only thing I wish was different. Someone in the past added a little Cherokee-style storm window on that side which helps a bit.

    @Supereri if you've decided on a 182, CPA has a ~90 page 182 Buyer's Guide that lays out all the differences of the various model years and S/Ns, some available STCs, a nice pre-buy checklist... I thought it was really helpful when I was looking for a Skylane.
     
  29. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Line Up and Wait

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    @Supereri where abouts in the US are you?

    I'd love to partner in a Skylane!

    Hard to pull together without buying the plane first.

    Good luck in your search/ pre buy etc.
     
  30. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    Phoenix AZ
     
  31. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Idk why people always forget about the R lol
     
  32. ServoB17

    ServoB17 Pre-Flight

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    I would have taken an R! Though the only two I came across were former CAP planes that looked like they had been ridden pretty hard. Did a prebuy on one of them, but had to walk away.
     
  33. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I've not ignored R models, just they are generally too expensive for my budget.
     
  34. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Honestly, if you don't need the 1000lbs useful I would buy a straight tail or fast back (A-D.) My favorite is a "D" model. Damn things are pretty.

    I needed a 5th seat, so...
     
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  35. Supereri

    Supereri Pre-Flight

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    I do though. Roughly 1100 would be ideal, but I'll have to make do with 1050 if this deal goes through.
     
  36. WillFly4Food

    WillFly4Food Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think there’s an STC for three seatbelts across the back seat.