Aircraft Owner Question/Survey

[weirdjim]

The other principal in RST and I have a "discussion" going and I said I'd ask the question of other aircraft owners. The other principal and I sleep together at night, so I'm trying to be very circumspect about the question(s) (and the answers) so as to not be banished to the couch at night.

We are in a new product design. The market sells this product for about $150 and we are thinking in the $50 price park. The caveat, of course, is that with all of our products YOU get to put it together yourself.

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I can buy a premade chassis with no holes drilled or a custom made chassis with all holes drilled. If price is no object, which one would you prefer?

If the price had to increase for the custom made chassis, and the only difference were 4 each 3/8" holes in aluminum, what would you pay not to have to drill the three holes?

This is not an "AND" function. If you choose the increase, you can't say "give us both options". One or the other.
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Thanks,

Jim
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[Henning]

How difficult is it to locate the hole's position and how precise does it need to be? I'd say it would be worth $5-10 to avoid destruction(removing metal) in the assembly process. Another option I see would be center punch the locations.

 

[Old Geek]

Let me answer your question a different way. If I wanted your product, I would be willing to pay up to $15 more for you to drill the holes. And that's with me having a nicely equiped machine shop in the garage. 3/8" holes are just big enough to cause the drill to walk around and bugger things if the work isn't clamped and correct pilot holes aren't drilled.

 

[weirdjim]

How difficult is it to locate the hole's position and how precise does it need to be? I'd say it would be worth $5-10 to avoid destruction(removing metal) in the assembly process. Another option I see would be center punch the locations.

Relative to the edges of the box (think of a double pack of cigarettes stacked to make a rough cube) you can be off 50 mils (0.050") without any difficulty in assembly. HOWEVER, the four holes one to another need to be square to one another within about 20 mils.

There is some slop even on the 20 mils as the holes are actually to mount BNC connectors in and there is a 35 mil shoulder on the connector that can be jiggled around if necessary. Pretty sloppy fit.

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

Let me answer your question a different way. If I wanted your product, I would be willing to pay up to $15 more for you to drill the holes. And that's with me having a nicely equiped machine shop in the garage. 3/8" holes are just big enough to cause the drill to walk around and bugger things if the work isn't clamped and correct pilot holes aren't drilled.

So if we could do it for $50 plain you'd be willing to go $65 to get the holes drilled?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Henning]

Relative to the edges of the box (think of a double pack of cigarettes stacked to make a rough cube) you can be off 50 mils (0.050") without any difficulty in assembly. HOWEVER, the four holes one to another need to be square to one another within about 20 mils.

There is some slop even on the 20 mils as the holes are actually to mount BNC connectors in and there is a 35 mil shoulder on the connector that can be jiggled around if necessary. Pretty sloppy fit.

Jim

Add $15 and make it $65 vs $150, still a substantial savings, and you can make a jig pretty quickly whose time will amortize out and you'll be making over $600hr to drill the holes.

 

[yetti]

Cut the piece and punch the holes, then bend, then finish. How are you going to clamp without hurting the finish? $5.00 extra not have to worry about buggering the finish

 

[CTLSi]

This is the kind of thing that may separate you from regular sleep and sex? Most of the time it's about hygiene and farting, not chassis and pre-drilled holes.

 

[weirdjim]

This is the kind of thing that may separate you from regular sleep and sex? Most of the time it's about hygiene and farting, not chassis and pre-drilled holes.

That's the wonderful thing about falling in love at 70. Hearing is gone. Eyesight is gone. Smell is gone. I'm not going anywhere else.

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

Cut the piece and punch the holes, then bend, then finish. How are you going to clamp without hurting the finish? $5.00 extra not have to worry about buggering the finish

So far the bid is up to $15. The box is premade and cannot be punched with a turret. It is either drill or use a threaded chassis punch. There is no finish; it is raw aluminum.

Jim

 

[Old Geek]

So if we could do it for $50 plain you'd be willing to go $65 to get the holes drilled?

Thanks,

Jim

Absolutely. For me to do it would probably be 30 minutes. Locate the holes, center-punch, figure out how to clamp it, pilot drill, finish drill, deburr, repeat 2 more times, clean it, wash up....

And the garage is about 100 degrees right now.

 

[dans2992]

What is the product?

 

[weirdjim]

What is the product?

Doesn't matter and I'd prefer not to say. I will say that it has more than one BNC connector on it.

Jim

 

[Kelvin]

I can buy a premade chassis with no holes drilled or a custom made chassis with all holes drilled. If price is no object, which one would you prefer?

Pre-drilled. Will the chassis need to be silk screened?
Misaligned BNC connectors on anything looks like ass...

If the price had to increase for the custom made chassis, and the only difference were 4 each 3/8" holes in aluminum, what would you pay not to have to drill the three holes?

$5 $15 is extremely high in the world I live it for 4 3/8" holes...plus...these holes are for a product with a kit cost of $50.00.

I buy custom punched and engraved metal to the tune of 10's of thousands of dollars a year to keep the holes punched by a machine or a shop set up to do it.

I would think pride in your finished product, regardless of the final assembler, should drive this decision...it would for me. I would gladly give up margin for a better looking end result...I do every day.

 

[poadeleted21]

So if we could do it for $50 plain you'd be willing to go $65 to get the holes drilled?

Thanks,

Jim

Yep. Me too. If we were talking $500 vs $650 I'd have a different opinion. And I too have a nicely equipped machine shop in my back yard.

 

[BG305]

Add $15 and make it $65 vs $150, still a substantial savings, and you can make a jig pretty quickly whose time will amortize out and you'll be making over $600hr to drill the holes.

+ I'm imagining that at the end of the day you can recycle all the aluminum and get some type of return. I think about my time in $$$$($83.33hr)and if it's going to take me 1hr to drill the 4 holes. I would rather pay the few extra $ and get the pre drilled holes professionally placed where they need to be.

 

[Bob Noel]

The other principal in RST and I have a "discussion" going and I said I'd ask the question of other aircraft owners. The other principal and I sleep together at night, so I'm trying to be very circumspect about the question(s) (and the answers) so as to not be banished to the couch at night.

We are in a new product design. The market sells this product for about $150 and we are thinking in the $50 price park. The caveat, of course, is that with all of our products YOU get to put it together yourself.

**************
I can buy a premade chassis with no holes drilled or a custom made chassis with all holes drilled. If price is no object, which one would you prefer?

If the price had to increase for the custom made chassis, and the only difference were 4 each 3/8" holes in aluminum, what would you pay not to have to drill the three holes?

This is not an "AND" function. If you choose the increase, you can't say "give us both options". One or the other.
*************************

Thanks,

Jim
.
.
.

Not enough information.

If the tolerance of those holes was sufficiently loose or "sloppy" that even I could drill the holes, I'd be perfectly happy to do the work myself. Not to save a buck, but I like working with my hands and I don't get to do it enough.

However, if it is really important that the holes are drilled exactly, with machinist quality, then I'd pay the extra money.

Either way, I wouldn't complain.

Hopefully this answer will help.

 

[frfly172]

I'd go for the pre drilled holes. Not that good with a drill.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Pre drilled, because while I'll solder I don't drill. I don't have a machine shop (or even a drill press).

 

[Henning]

Machine shop would not be necessary, a decent scale or calipers and scribe to mark the position, a center punch, and a cordless drill would be quite sufficient from the sounds of it. However by the time everything is measured, marked, dimpled and drilled without a jig will take around 30-45 minutes with a chance of making an error and having to get a new part. Why take that time and risk for a $15 savings? Doesn't make sense, if someone is that 'do it yourself, they would probably scratch build from plans or their own design. Since Jim is the manufacturer, he can build a drilling jig in the same time as it takes him to drill one set of holes, and from then on it takes a couple minutes to drill the 4 holes accurately and do a quick deburr. Everybody comes out ahead.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Why take that time and risk for a $15 savings?

This is not the question the original poster asked, but I'll go you one better. To me, $150 - $65 isn't enough for me to build the kit. Maybe I'm numb after being an airplane owner but for that small a difference, just gimme the finished gizmo.

 

[Henning]

This is not the question the original poster asked, but I'll go you one better. To me, $150 - $65 isn't enough for me to build the kit. Maybe I'm just numb after being an airplane owner, but for that small a difference, just gimme the finished gizmo.

I don't really disagree either, but that was not a presented option. Besides, while you are not part of the market segment he is looking at, there are more than enough pilots out there that if he can produce a desirable, competitive product at less than half the price by just requiring some assembly time, he will sell enough to make the program worth while. Pilots are as genetically cheap as sailboat owners.

 

[yetti]

So now I have to finish it too? Well crap I am out.

 

[iflyvfr]

If I could do it at all it would take me 3 hours to drill the holes, but more than likely I'd get my friend to do it for me, which involves me flying to his airport, driving to his place, going to lunch, flying someplace else for dinner...hmmm this is sounding better all the time.

 

[bluerooster]

$150 for all holes to be drilled by you, or $50 for me to drill the holes. Hmmm, I can drill the holes, and If I screw it up, I get a second chance, before I'm upside down in it. So I'll drill the holes thanx.

 

[Henning]

$150 for all holes to be drilled by you, or $50 for me to drill the holes. Hmmm, I can drill the holes, and If I screw it up, I get a second chance, before I'm upside down in it. So I'll drill the holes thanx.

How about for $65 with all the holes drilled? $150 was a competitors fully assembled model IIRC.

 

[bluerooster]

How difficult is it to locate the hole's position and how precise does it need to be? I'd say it would be worth $5-10 to avoid destruction(removing metal) in the assembly process. Another option I see would be center punch the locations.

$5-$10 difference? What I see in the OP is $100 difference.
I can accurately drill a bunch of holes for $100.

 

[Henning]

$5-$10 difference? What I see in the OP is $100 difference.
I can accurately drill a bunch of holes for $100.

I think you misread:

We are in a new product design. The market sells this product for about $150 and we are thinking in the $50 price park. The caveat, of course, is that with all of our products YOU get to put it together yourself.

If the price had to increase for the custom made chassis, and the only difference were 4 each 3/8" holes in aluminum, what would you pay not to have to drill the three holes?

The $150 product that exists is a competing product fully assembled, his will be an unassembled product at $50 unassembled. The question that stands is just how much one would be willing to spend to avoid drilling the holes during the assembly process. At least that's my read on it.

 

[weirdjim]

Pilots are as genetically cheap as sailboat owners.

I've been doing this for 40 years this year.

Pilots are third in the list of genetically cheap.

Sailboat owners are second.

Ham radio operators are first.

Scientifically generated data over the last 40 years.

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

This is not the question the original poster asked, but I'll go you one better. To me, $150 - $65 isn't enough for me to build the kit. Maybe I'm numb after being an airplane owner but for that small a difference, just gimme the finished gizmo.

No problem. We are set up to cater to the aircraft owner who wants to save a buck by doing a little work rather than the owner that throws money at the problem to solve it.

THanks,

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

Since Jim is the manufacturer, he can build a drilling jig in the same time as it takes him to drill one set of holes, and from then on it takes a couple minutes to drill the 4 holes accurately and do a quick deburr. Everybody comes out ahead.

Except Jim (or his $40 an hour lab tech/machinist) gets to do these 20 at a time (you all DO understand that this is not exactly mass production, more like 20 a month) takes half an hour to set up, fifteen minutes PER chassis to peel off the plastic covering, store the unused half, and toss the supplied mounting hardware into a container, do the drilling, remate the other half of the chassis, and find the mounting hardware that the cat was playing with.

Toss the chassis that the machinist misdrilled, toss the chassis that the cat-induced hardware lost, and put the remaining chassis into stock.

THose of you who have never run a manufacturing company do not need to respond to this post. You have ABSOLUTELY no clue how it is done.

THanks,

Jim

 

[Henning]

Except Jim (or his $40 an hour lab tech/machinist) gets to do these 20 at a time (you all DO understand that this is not exactly mass production, more like 20 a month) takes half an hour to set up, fifteen minutes PER chassis to peel off the plastic covering, store the unused half, and toss the supplied mounting hardware into a container, do the drilling, remate the other half of the chassis, and find the mounting hardware that the cat was playing with.

Toss the chassis that the machinist misdrilled, toss the chassis that the cat-induced hardware lost, and put the remaining chassis into stock.

THose of you who have never run a manufacturing company do not need to respond to this post. You have ABSOLUTELY no clue how it is done.

THanks,

Jim

I'm having difficulty picturing the hassle (except the cat stealing parts, that I'm familiar with) since I don't have a complete picture of the product in my mind. Just wondering why it would require disassembly and reassembly of parts when the kit is delivered in pieces? If you do 20 at a time, can you stack them? Yes, I have plenty of experience in garage based manufacturing, machine, and fabrication shops.

 

[weirdjim]

I'm having difficulty picturing the hassle (except the cat stealing parts, that I'm familiar with) since I don't have a complete picture of the product in my mind. Just wondering why it would require disassembly and reassembly of parts when the kit is delivered in pieces? If you do 20 at a time, can you stack them? Yes, I have plenty of experience in garage based manufacturing, machine, and fabrication shops.

Well, then, picture this.

The chassis is a premanufactured little tiny 3" x 3" x 3" unit that would cost $20 in small quantities to be custom manufactured, but $4 as an off the shelf premanufactured unit shipped in thick shrinkwrap that needs to be carefully cut apart with an exacto knife without scratching the chassis.

It is a U-chassis with an inner and an outer part that eventually will be held together with (supplied in a shrink-wrapped) PK screws.

You have to cut the thing apart, take the inner part of the chassis and the screws and put them in a safe place (cats nothwithstanding)

Peel the protective film off the outer part, punch the four holes using the jig it took you an hour to fabricate, drill pilot holes, drill fabrication holes, and then drill using a step drill on the top side to one step before the final hole, then turn the part over and drill the final hole so that there are no burrs.

Deburr (even though there shouldn't be any, there will be), mate the drilled half with the other half and be sure to put the wrapped PK screws inside.

Then do the next one.

Wanna do a time and motion study? I have. In quantities of 20, about a quarter of an hour apiece. That's $10 for an employee making $40 an hour as a machinist (plus overhead, plus social security, plus unemployment, plus workers comp plus retirement plus ... plus ... plus)

You want it for $15 more? You are getting one hell of a deal. Nobody is making their gravy retirement fund on that.

And that doesn't cover the 10% of the chassis that you "oops" scratch or misdrill and have to scrap.

Does that make the picture a little clearer?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Henning]

Oh, ok, well then, the $15 is only $1 shy of the cost differential of obtaining the chassis Pre drilled, so the point is still valid. I was thinking the chassis was a simple piece of sheet metal. If the drilling process is actually that involved, not just marking and drilling 4 holes, then definitely yes, order the Pre drilled custom chassis for $20 is my opinion.

 

[kontiki]

If the holes need to be drilled so they align with matching holes, better to pre drill smaller pilot holes. Picking up alignment with 3/8 holes is a little bit harder for people that have marginal metal skills.

 

[nrpetersen]

Jim - I buy (bought) your RST stuff because of the documentation needed to assemble and check it out, plus I can modify it as might be needed for my particular application.

I have a drill press etc but hate to drill soft aluminum (2024-T3 etc yes) but not lower alloys such as most chassis are made from.

Charge more money. Drill/punch the holes.

 

[Jim Burns]

Hey Jim,
Ok, are you kidding? You want me to pay you extra for denying me several hours of pure bliss alone in my hanger, with my airplane, playing with avionics?

At the most just throw in a photo copied paper template, or a single line of hint in the instructions, I'm fine on my own and might even buy 2 in case I screw up the first one!

 

[Old Geek]

Except Jim (or his $40 an hour lab tech/machinist) gets to do these 20 at a time (you all DO understand that this is not exactly mass production, more like 20 a month) takes half an hour to set up, fifteen minutes PER chassis to peel off the plastic covering, store the unused half, and toss the supplied mounting hardware into a container, do the drilling, remate the other half of the chassis, and find the mounting hardware that the cat was playing with.

Toss the chassis that the machinist misdrilled, toss the chassis that the cat-induced hardware lost, and put the remaining chassis into stock.

THose of you who have never run a manufacturing company do not need to respond to this post. You have ABSOLUTELY no clue how it is done.

THanks,

Jim

Not only have I ran a small manufacturing company, I'm just down in the Valley from you and I've probably used all the same vendors as you. I do know how much it costs to get holes drilled and sheet metal bent.

Good luck with your product. Feel free to PM me if you need any other advice.