Air-to-Air Piper Comanche 260 B

Lowflynjack

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
5,142
Display Name
Jack Fleetwood
Well, even with bad weather here in Central Texas, we got one good day and I was able to knock out one more photoshoot before we load up and head to Oshkosh. Love the looks of these Comanches!

54650628048_0a523bd261_b.jpg

54650627578_e4c918292c_b.jpg

54649542912_9c9b44cd38_b.jpg

54649538232_5f152a95eb_b.jpg

54650382126_821c627638_b.jpg

54650378151_9d315ab02a_c.jpg

54650612453_1b10d90625_b.jpg
 
I had a 260C. The dumbest thing I've ever done in aviation was sell it.

They are the peak GA single.
I don't know the history of Comanches, but it seems like it would sell today. It's a shame they discontinued it.
 
I don't know the history of Comanches, but it seems like it would sell today. It's a shame they discontinued it.
I think (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) that a flood in Lockhaven destroyed a lot of the tooling and Piper decided it wasn't worth the capital expense to re-tool to produce more. IIRC.
 
I think (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) that a flood in Lockhaven destroyed a lot of the tooling and Piper decided it wasn't worth the capital expense to re-tool to produce more. IIRC.

The Comanche was more difficult and expensive to produce versus the new Cherokee models, so Piper was looking to get out anyway. The flood was a convenient excuse to take the insurance money and run.
 
I don't know the history of Comanches, but it seems like it would sell today. It's a shame they discontinued it.
Absolutely. Without the flood, I think the PA24-180 would have been dropped in favor of the Arrow just due to production costs and their other similarities, although given the timeline of the Arrow it's possible that the Arrow was developed because of the flood's impact on the Comanche. However, the 260C would have likely continued to sell well at least until the 2000s brought competition from Cirrus, and the 400 probably would have continued to sell in smaller numbers and nabbed some of that Cirrus audience.

The Twin Comanche would have probably lasted at least through 1974, when the PA-40 Arapaho was certified. However, Piper's excuse for not putting that into production was that they didn't want to establish a new production line during a recession, so they may have continued with the PA-39 Twin Comanche CR at least until 1979's introduction of the Seminole. However, IMO it would have been a dumb move to replace the Twin Comanche with the Seminole - The Seminole is simpler and easier to produce, yes, but it also performs like crap in comparison, and has pretty much always been solely in the trainer role because of that while the Twin Comanche has always been a sought-after personal airplane in addition to being used extensively as a multi trainer.

I think (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) that a flood in Lockhaven destroyed a lot of the tooling and Piper decided it wasn't worth the capital expense to re-tool to produce more. IIRC.
Nope, you're correct. The remnants of Hurricane Agnes caused a huge flood on the Susquehanna and the water crested 16 feet above the factory floor. Piper had been producing the Cherokee line in Vero Beach for over a decade by this point and they were far simpler and cheaper to produce.

The Comanche was more difficult and expensive to produce versus the new Cherokee models, so Piper was looking to get out anyway. The flood was a convenient excuse to take the insurance money and run.
Yeah... But man, they never came up with real replacements for the Comanche line. The 24-180 eventually got replaced by the Arrow and those were probably the most similar. The 24-260 and 24-400 didn't really have any analogs in Piper's lineup, so the "poor man's Bonanza" went away. The 8-cylinder 400hp variant was tough to properly cool via air cooling and obviously had higher operating costs because of that and fuel burn, which is probably why you don't see many 400hp singles from anyone before or since. The 260hp Comanche compares favorably with an awful lot of other airplanes and would have sold well for a long time.

The Twin Comanche would have theoretically been replaced by the Arapaho as mentioned above, but in reality both were replaced by the Seneca, which was further developed into the turbocharged fixed-wastegate Seneca II. The turbo system makes it a horrible trainer, and while it has a mission, if you look at the mission of the Twinkie as a trainer plus a four-place personal traveling aircraft, the Seneca is a bit of a pig when used for those missions.

I think if they had been able to make production simpler for the twin, and add some of the Miller mods and maybe even R-STOL mods, they'd have had a very competitive twin at least up through the 2004 introduction of the Diamond TwinStar.
 
Yeah... But man, they never came up with real replacements for the Comanche line. The 24-180 eventually got replaced by the Arrow and those were probably the most similar. The 24-260 and 24-400 didn't really have any analogs in Piper's lineup, so the "poor man's Bonanza" went away. The 8-cylinder 400hp variant was tough to properly cool via air cooling and obviously had higher operating costs because of that and fuel burn, which is probably why you don't see many 400hp singles from anyone before or since. The 260hp Comanche compares favorably with an awful lot of other airplanes and would have sold well for a long time.

Why Piper never built a bigger motor version of the Arrow, I don't know. Even taking the 235 from the Dakota and putting in an Arrow would have been a decent upgrade.

Ultimately the Comanche's best feature was its downfall, the flush riveted laminar flow wing. Great aerodynamics and performance, but one of the most time consuming and expensive ways to build a metal wing. The performance of the Cherokee series was "close enough" that Piper didn't want to have internal competition, and the profit margin on the Cherokee was higher. The flood was the final nail.
 
Video is not my thing, but I'm playing around with it. Here's a video of a portion of this air-to-air. Warning, it's a little boring!

Click Here for Video
 
Where did you park? I was in ComancheTown by the ultralight field.
 
I would love a Comanche but my AP told me to stay away, due to the landing gear maintenance and parts availability.. but man, that plane checks ALL the boxes
 
I would love a Comanche but my AP told me to stay away, due to the landing gear maintenance and parts availability.. but man, that plane checks ALL the boxes

If you're referring to the 1,000 hour landing gear AD, I was super scared of it, too. Just went through my first one with no issues. Sure, it was expensive at around $3,000 but honestly, over a period of 1,000 hours, that's $3 per flight hour - not that big of a deal.
 
Always said if I come across a good C model, it's gonna be tough to pass up.
 
I would love a Comanche but my AP told me to stay away, due to the landing gear maintenance and parts availability.. but man, that plane checks ALL the boxes
I bet @EdFred would have some words for your A&P! :D

The Comanche needing some type-specific stuff is really no different than any other type. On my Mooney it's gear pucks and tank reseals. When it needs a full reseal I'll take it to one of the specialists (or use one of the mobile specialists); the gear pucks are just "different" but plenty easy to work on and I had the local shop replace them at annual a few years ago.

Likewise, the Comanche just needs an owner that understands it and uses the right specialists. Webco Aircraft does a lot to support them, and Piper is still in business too. I would have zero qualms about buying a Comanche today. They're great airplanes. Ask @EdFred, @SixPapaCharlie, @Chrisgoesflying, @Kristin, @midwestpa24, @jbarrass, @T Bird, and probably a number of others.
 
Beautiful pictures of a beautiful airplane. You can really see what a full size cockpit looks like from those shots!
 
I bet @EdFred would have some words for your A&P! :D

The Comanche needing some type-specific stuff is really no different than any other type. On my Mooney it's gear pucks and tank reseals. When it needs a full reseal I'll take it to one of the specialists (or use one of the mobile specialists); the gear pucks are just "different" but plenty easy to work on and I had the local shop replace them at annual a few years ago.

Likewise, the Comanche just needs an owner that understands it and uses the right specialists. Webco Aircraft does a lot to support them, and Piper is still in business too. I would have zero qualms about buying a Comanche today. They're great airplanes. Ask @EdFred, @SixPapaCharlie, @Chrisgoesflying, @Kristin, @midwestpa24, @jbarrass, @T Bird, and probably a number of others.

Service and support for a Comanche is not unlike any other 40-60 year old Piper or Cessna. Yes there are a couple of recurring ADs, but what airframe doesn't have that. There are quite a few Comanche familiar A&Ps around the country, and it probably wouldn't take much to get your A&P up to speed if willing. The gear does require periodic maintenance, but if well maintained it is usually trouble free. The big thing is frequent replacement of the bungees helps prevent wear and tear on the other moving parts. I know some guys that have started doing that annually, some every other annual.

The Comanche itself is hard to beat. A spacious cabin compared to a lot of other 4 seaters. My wife and I are not petite people, and find the average PA28 or C172 a little cramped with their 39-40 inch wide cabins. The Comanche is downright roomy in comparison at 46 inches. It takes a little effort to get the aircraft overweight, which is handles just fine, and is literally impossible to get out of the CG envelope short of filling the baggage compartment full of gold bricks. In that case, you can probably afford a bigger airplane anyway.

I started out with a Comanche 180 and thought it didn't get any better than that. Flight planned 140 kts at 9 GPH all day long. That aircraft had just the main tanks, 60 gallons total, so 6 hour endurance. Never had a performance issue 0 - 10,000 ft.

Then we got into the Comanche 250. Completely spoiled everything after that. 155 kts at 14 GPH, 60 gallons in the mains and an extra 30 gallons in the aux tanks to keep the 6 hour endurance. 750+ mile range with 1 hour reserve. Climbs a little better, and goes a little faster. Lesson learned, once you get used to cruising faster, its hard to go back. On the occasion I get asked to fly a PA28 or C172, I'm going nuts looking at 120kts at best.

The Comanche also handles like a dream. The Laminar flow wing is a thing of beauty, both physically and in performance. Trim it up, and you won't even need the autopilot.

The only other complaint I've heard about Comanches is they are hard to land. Between the 180 and the 250, I have over 220 landings and I can't recall a bad one yet. Either I'm good (doubt it), or lucky (not usually), or the reputation is bogus (most likely). The key is being on speed with a slight amount of nose up trim as you cross the threshold, and you'll grease it every time!
 
The only other complaint I've heard about Comanches is they are hard to land. Between the 180 and the 250, I have over 220 landings and I can't recall a bad one yet. Either I'm good (doubt it), or lucky (not usually), or the reputation is bogus (most likely). The key is being on speed with a slight amount of nose up trim as you cross the threshold, and you'll grease it every time!
My trick now is on short final: Crank the trim all the way to nose up, keep a shade of forward pressure on the yoke with a little bit of power but still keeping the approach speed, then just before the numbers, pull the power, and slowly let the nose come up on its own a little. Practically lands itself.
 
My trick now is on short final: Crank the trim all the way to nose up, keep a shade of forward pressure on the yoke with a little bit of power but still keeping the approach speed, then just before the numbers, pull the power, and slowly let the nose come up on its own a little. Practically lands itself.

The nose up trim I think is the magic trick. I usually use a crank or two of nose up, just enough to require a little forward pressure on final, but not enough to cause a massive pitch up on a go-around. That pressure neutralizes in the flare and allows a gentle touchdown. I've done familiarization training to a few new Comanche pilots and showed them this, and they all swear by it now.
 
The nose up trim I think is the magic trick. I usually use a crank or two of nose up, just enough to require a little forward pressure on final, but not enough to cause a massive pitch up on a go-around. That pressure neutralizes in the flare and allows a gentle touchdown. I've done familiarization training to a few new Comanche pilots and showed them this, and they all swear by it now.
I used to land it with the trim about halfway between neutral and full up and do the normal flare. Then a couple years ago, I starting experimenting and ended up flaring by cranking the trim when over the numbers. Then I progressed to my current technique in the past year or so. But yeah, if a go around is going to happen, you gotta be ready to push on that yoke, or get that trim recranked. However, in 16+ years of owning it, I haven't had to do a go around yet. Except the one time at GRR when there was a groundhog on the runway. But they told me to go around when I was still 600AGL and I hadn't messed with the trim yet.
 
The only other complaint I've heard about Comanches is they are hard to land. Between the 180 and the 250, I have over 220 landings and I can't recall a bad one yet. Either I'm good (doubt it), or lucky (not usually), or the reputation is bogus (most likely). The key is being on speed with a slight amount of nose up trim as you cross the threshold, and you'll grease it every time!
I have sadly limited experience with Comanches but I also didn't find them particularly difficult to land. For those who do, the cause isn't unknown - IIRC it has something to do with a vortex off the inner part of the flap interacting with the elevator in certain conditions. If you find those conditions a lot, rumor has it that the wing fillet kit cures it.
 
I have sadly limited experience with Comanches but I also didn't find them particularly difficult to land. For those who do, the cause isn't unknown - IIRC it has something to do with a vortex off the inner part of the flap interacting with the elevator in certain conditions. If you find those conditions a lot, rumor has it that the wing fillet kit cures it.
No, it's the same as a Mooney. Float with 2kts too much speed, and 2 it's too slow and it drops. When you go from the +/-8kt landing windows on PA28s and 172s to the tight speed windows and don't adhere to them, of course it's "hard."
 
Nice job on the photo shoot. Thanks for providing the magazine article.
 
Back
Top