Air France A330 - Missing over Atantic

Oh wow this does not look good.
An Air France plane missing over the Atlantic with 228 people aboard reported electrical problems in stormy weather before it lost contact, the airline said Monday, describing the loss as a "catastrophe." The incident involves an Air France Airbus A330-200.


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The Airbus A330-200 sent automatic messages signaling equipment failure as it hit turbulence early in its 11-hour flight from Rio de Janeiro to Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris, Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon told a news conference.
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The "automatic message" reference is most disturbing; I think that this is press-speak for an ELT signal.

I occasionally take smart-aleck shots at Airbus planes, but they are in reality robust and well-crafted machines; the 330 has been a workhorse.

Pray now that they find a pack of liferafts, because, as I understand it, the time for them to have exhausted fuel has long-since passed...
 
It is fly-by-wire, though, so a catastrophic electrical failure would likely be an issue.....

The question I have is whether that plane - and AF - use ACARS or an ARINC system to send aircraft operating data back to ground?
 
I don't think it was an ELT Spike. regardless time has long since past for it to still be airborne given the fuel on board.:nonod:

I really pray they find folks floating in rafts alive soon!
 
wsuffa said:
It is fly-by-wire, though, so a catastrophic electrical failure would likely be an issue.....

The question I have is whether that plane - and AF - use ACARS or an ARINC system to send aircraft operating data back to ground?
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My guess would be that is what the '"failure" messages actually were. ELTs sure don't send that data. The A330 has the automatic monitoring and reporting system and a major airline like AF would probably use that capability.

A bad day for everybody. I hope they find them sitting on a remote airfield waiting for the search party.
 
Assuming that they were at 33-35000', how far could they glide? Maybe they did find an island or something. My thoughts and prayers to the 'souls' and the families out there waiting to hear about them.
 
How far did that plane that ran out of fuel due to a leak glide to the Azores? For that matter how far did the Gimli glider actually glide?

For the Azores one I am thinking it was only about 100 or nautical miles.
 
SCCutler said:
The "automatic message" reference is most disturbing; I think that this is press-speak for an ELT signal.

I occasionally take smart-aleck shots at Airbus planes, but they are in reality robust and well-crafted machines; the 330 has been a workhorse.

Pray now that they find a pack of liferafts, because, as I understand it, the time for them to have exhausted fuel has long-since passed...
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My next door neighbor flies the 330 for NW/Delta and he said they have a satellite uplink that reports their position every minute or so and that's likely what's being referred to.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Plus they may still have had some power / control - makes for a really big search area.
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According to my neighbor, if they lost all sources of electrical power they were doomed. The available sources are: two generators (one on each engine), a hydraulically driven backup generator powered by a Ram Air Turbine) and the batteries. He also said that the engine FADECs are self powered and will function in a "limp mode" with all the rest of the electrical systems turned off. He also said they practice flying with just the elevator and rudder trims but that some electrical power is needed even for that (the flight computers apparently aren't needed for that limited control).
 
It was a stormy night, that's for sure:

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They are saying that the aircraft automatically reported a short circuit, so I think it's not ELT--must be some satellite maintenance reporting system. I'm sure we'll learn more as time passes... sad story.
 

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French President Nicolas Sarkozy says the prospects of finding any survivors from an Air France jet that disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean carrying 228 people are "very small."

Sarkozy says "no hypothesis is excluded" in the search for causes of the disappearance of the Rio to Paris flight.

Sarkozy met Monday at Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport with some of families of those aboard the plane, including "a mother who lost her son, a fiance who lost her future husband."

Sarkozy said, "I told them the truth. The prospects of finding survivors are very small."


He said finding the plane "will be very difficult" because the search zone "is immense."

He said France has asked for help from U.S. satellite equipment to locate the plane.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-brazil-plane,0,115379.story
 
Too bad Sully wasn't there to save them.:rolleyes:


Crappy way to go. I imagine the last few minutes were terrifying.:frown3:
 
Sad.

I do have to wonder when folks will be drawing parallels to the Bermuda Triangle.
 
With storms that big in the area, is it a false assumption that the seas would have been rough, too, making a ditching or surviving one, or even going in for search and rescue treacherous?
 
Clearly this is a tragicle.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
With storms that big in the area, is it a false assumption that the seas would have been rough, too, making a ditching or surviving one, or even going in for search and rescue treacherous?
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How likely do you think it is that they had time to even attempt a ditching, if they were unable to get a mayday out? (Note that I don't know that they were unable to get a mayday out, though notoriously inaccurate press reports do tend to support that inference.)
 
gprellwitz said:
How likely do you think it is that they had time to even attempt a ditching, if they were unable to get a mayday out? (Note that I don't know that they were unable to get a mayday out, though notoriously inaccurate press reports do tend to support that inference.)
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I think it is safe to assume that we cannot assume anything right now.
 
I was running on the treadmill this morning, watching CNN.

On my flight down yesterday, I was thinking about how newer airframes like the 330, 340, 380, and 777 hadn't had a fatal crash yet.

I stopped dead in my tracks when I saw the report.

226 souls departed. Tragic.
 
smigaldi said:
How far did that plane that ran out of fuel due to a leak glide to the Azores? For that matter how far did the Gimli glider actually glide?

For the Azores one I am thinking it was only about 100 or nautical miles.
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Gimli Glider- at least 145 miles (Red Lake, Ontario to Gimli, Manitoba) from FL410

Air Transat 236 (The Azores Glider):
At 06:13, at a calculated distance of 135 miles from Lajes, the right engine (Rolls-Royce Trent 772B) flamed out. At 06:26, when the aircraft was about 85 nm from Lajes and at an altitude of about FL345, the left engine flamed out.
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Source for Air Transat 236 information: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010824-1
 
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French press reported last night that they had the location where the aircraft went down. VERY large area.
 
The "can you believe it" moment on the radio news was, "Radar doesn't cover airliners on the whole trip across the oceans." And NOBODY is GOING TO JAIL over this?
 
The one I liked best was the comments here: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/06/troubling-airline-accidents.html

Especially a post I like to call "Enter the Dumba**":

Posted by Brad Guth @ 6:43 PM Mon, Jun 01, 2009
Air France Flight 447: (does anyone care ask about space junk?)
Unless there was an unusual jet stream anomaly nearby, there is no such horrific atmospheric turbulence at that cruising altitude of 35000’, much less lightening, and the vast bulk of whatever storms are at least 15000’ if not 20000’ below. However, this South Atlantic area is also the prime downrange gauntlet for defunct satellite junk.
Of course, global military operations and of their multiple surveillance satellites plus all sorts of space junk tracking stations would have recorded Air France Flight 447 on its way, and having known of whatever was coming down within that specific pathway.
There’s hardly a km2 of Earth that isn’t nicely covered by some kind of active satellite and military radar surveillance that would offer sufficient resolution for tracking that A330 flight, because it’s not exactly a small or otherwise stealth aircraft.
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I could not resist tearing into the guy....it was almost too easy.....

"there is no such horrific atmospheric turbulence at that cruising altitude of 35000’, much less lightening, and the vast bulk of whatever storms are at least 15000’ if not 20000’ below."


And I would imagine you have a doctoral degree in meteorology or atmospheric physics to base your contentions about turbulence upon? Thousands of hours of flying at those altitudes? If not, then please keep your head crammed up where it is obviously normally located as that will help to muffle the sound of your voice so the rest of us who are not conspiracy theorists and have maintained some semblance of rational thought processes do not have to listen to your ramblings.


"There’s hardly a km2 of Earth that isn’t nicely covered by some kind of active satellite and military radar surveillance"


Except for parts that are covered by mountains or that are out beyond the range of land-based radar. Obviously, once again you have no clue what you are talking about.
Let us not waste time on wild theories and try to spend our efforts finding the true cause of the crash, return the victims to their families and comfort them in their time of need.
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And apparently, I'm a horrible human being for saying that to him but oh well.... LOL

I swear I lose a little faith in belief that people as a group are the smartest creatures on this planet a little more each day because of crap like this.....
 
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Looks like they may have found wreckage:

CNN.com said:
(CNN) -- Wreckage has been found in the Atlantic Ocean that could have come from a missing Air France jet that disappeared Monday with 228 passengers and crew on board, Brazilian aviation officials said Tuesday.

Floating objects and seats were found 720 kilometers (447 miles) from the island of Fernando de Noronha, said Brazilian Air Force spokesman Jorge Amaral.

The search will continue but there is not enough material to officially say this is the wreckage from Flight 447, Maral said.
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Cheers,

-Andrew
 
mikea said:
The "can you believe it" moment on the radio news was, "Radar doesn't cover airliners on the whole trip across the oceans." And NOBODY is GOING TO JAIL over this?
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I know, it's shocking!

What I like least about these accidents is the fake outrage on the cable channels. Yes, it's always sad when people lose their lives. Maybe, if that's so tragic, we could also report on the tens of thousands that died that day due to famine, war, disease and driving on the highway.

Felix
 
SteveinMichigan said:
The one I liked best was the comments here: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/06/troubling-airline-accidents.html

Especially a post I like to call "Enter the Dumba**":

I could not resist tearing into the guy....it was almost too easy.....


And apparently, I'm a horrible human being for saying that to him but oh well.... LOL

I swear I lose a little faith in belief that people as a group are the smartest creatures on this planet a little more each day because of crap like this.....
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Well done, sir. Very well done. Space debris? How about cosmic rays??? What an idiot.
 
sba55 said:
I know, it's shocking!

What I like least about these accidents is the fake outrage on the cable channels. Yes, it's always sad when people lose their lives. Maybe, if that's so tragic, we could also report on the tens of thousands that died that day due to famine, war, disease and driving on the highway.

Felix
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I'm telling you, it was a tragicle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-vhyqx_Duc
 
sba55 said:
What I like least about these accidents is the fake outrage on the cable channels. Yes, it's always sad when people lose their lives. Maybe, if that's so tragic, we could also report on the tens of thousands that died that day due to famine, war, disease and driving on the highway.
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I don't think it is so much the fact that it's an airplane. I think it's because the 200+ people died at the same time. You can be certain that if there was a chain motor vehicle accident causing 200+ deaths it would be reported extensively. The same would happen if 200+ soldiers were killed in one day in one battle in Iraq or if 200+ people suddenly died tomorrow of swine flu in one location.
 
This is a pretty interesting analysis of the prevalent weather conditions before, during and after the time of the last automated radio broadcast of Loss of Electrical Pwr and Loss of Cabin Pressure.

This gentleman used to be a forecaster for the Air Force. He doesn’t attempt to say what actually happened, but rather lays out the weather events during that time slot that might have either caused the accident or been a contributing factor(s).

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think it is so much the fact that it's an airplane. I think it's because the 200+ people died at the same time. You can be certain that if there was a chain motor vehicle accident causing 200+ deaths it would be reported extensively. The same would happen if 200+ soldiers were killed in one day in one battle in Iraq or if 200+ people suddenly died tomorrow of swine flu in one location.
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I think this is true. The huge loss of life happening at once is as much or more of the newsmaker than the airplane crash. However, when a Cessna lands on a golf course, the inhabitants walk away unharmed, and the media reports "PLANE CRASH, film at 11" that's when I really have a problem.
 
Here's an interesting weather analysis http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

Summary in the link:


Overall what we know for sure is weather was a factor and the flight definitely crossed through a thunderstorm complex. There is a definite correlation of weather with the crash. However the analysis indicates that the weather is not anything particularly exceptional in terms of instability or storm structure. It's my opinion that tropical storm complexes identical to this one have probably been crossed hundreds of times over the years by other flights without serious incident.
Still, in the main MCS alone, the A330 would have been flying through significant turbulence and thunderstorm activity for about 75 miles (125 km), lasting about 12 minutes of flight time. Of course anything so far is speculation until more evidence comes in, and for all we know the cause of the downing could have been anything from turbulence to coincidental problems like a cargo fire.
My own opinion of the crash cause, as of Monday night, based on the complete lack of a HF radio call and consideration of all of the above, suggests severe turbulence (see the BOAC 911 and BNF 250 tragedies) combining in some unlikely way with CRM/design/maintenance/procedural/other deficiencies to trigger a failure cascade. We can almost certainly count on some unexpected surprises once the CVR is recovered. Until then, all we can do is await the investigation and hope that the world's flight operations stay safe until AFR447's lessons are revealed.

=============================================================
Best,

Dave
 
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From a news report off news.google.com:

Gabriel Elizondo, correspondent in Sao Paulo, said the air force appeared "fairly confident" the debris was from the missing plane, but could not say conclusively.

He said that two debris fields, lying 60km apart, had been found 650km northeast of the island of Fernando de Noronha. There has been no signs of any survivors.
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I don't think drift for two days can account for 60km separation of debris fields; in-flight breakup would have to be a strong consideration.
 
A conclusion clearly based on keen powers of observation and reasoning, coupled with a deep and profound grasp of the obvious?:P

TangoWhiskey said:
From a news report off news.google.com:



I don't think drift for two days can account for 60km separation of debris fields; in-flight breakup would have to be a strong consideration.
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