Air Emergency episode

[mattaxelrod]

I just watched the Air Emergency episode describing the events of the American Airlines crash in Cali, Columbia. It seems to me that the entire disaster could have been averted with a handheld GPS costing a couple hundred dollars. (granted, this took place in 1995). Do airliners have such a thing now, so that they can tell exactly where they are? I can't imagine not knowing exactly where I am at every moment, even when in solid IMC.

 

[TMetzinger]

The problem was that they punched in an identifier, and didn't cross-check that the waypoint their highly-accurate navigation system was flying them towards was the actual waypoint they intended.

A GPS without a moving map may have ended up with the same result - punch in BAL sometime in a flight plan and see what comes up.

Now a map mode may help, but when flying legs that can be hundreds of NM long, you may not spot the discrepancy right away.

 

[Nav8tor]

A GPS with terrain warning might have helped.

 

[poadeleted20]

Do airliners have such a thing now, so that they can tell exactly where they are?

The newer ones do -- it's called a "Flight Management System." Older ones may have only VOR's. One can only hope the pilots of the older ones are as well trained as my IR students are before I sign them off.

 

[TMetzinger]

Actually, the one that crashed had an FMS... based on inertial and dual VOR/DME updating. The airplane knew exactly where it was and where it was going. The pilots, unfortunately, didn't have a chart out to notice that their course didn't make sense, and ATC down there probably wasn't up to catching the problem.

There's a requirement now (and there probably was then) that crew members verify the lat/lon of any waypoints they put into the FMS with the flight plan or with charts.

 

[stagecoachco]

The pilots, unfortunately, didn't have a chart out to notice that their course didn't make sense, and ATC down there probably wasn't up to catching the problem.

IIRC the radar was out because of a terroist attack. The ATC was relying on the pilots to report position. ATC didn't realize that the aircraft was flying the wrong direction because they had no radar to confirm position.

 

[SCCutler]

If you read the CVR transcript, it's apparent that the crew were way behind the proceedings all along. Much to learn here.

 

[bbchien]

In March of 2004 "Aviation Safety", there is a nice article on "improper IFR". It's 90% fatal. No GPS could have helped this crew. It would have been nice if there had been competent PIC function on board. The blame is squarely with the crew. Just as it is with the biz jet that flew into the Texas tollbooth.

Follow instructions. The approach plates are as clear as they can be made.

 

[jesse]

I just watched the Air Emergency episode describing the events of the American Airlines crash in Cali, Columbia. It seems to me that the entire disaster could have been averted with a handheld GPS costing a couple hundred dollars. (granted, this took place in 1995). Do airliners have such a thing now, so that they can tell exactly where they are? I can't imagine not knowing exactly where I am at every moment, even when in solid IMC.

There are some airliners without GPS still. I wouldn't exactly call it a big airplane but the Beech 1900 that Teller flies is without.

 

[Teller1900]

It certainly is not big, and it certainly doesn't have GPS. We do have GPWS, though, (Ground Proximity Warning System) which is nice, but it all comes down to the user. We don't have to worry a lot about terrain out here, though we did in LEB...GPWS only chimes in (Terrain, Terrain; Pull up, Pull up, Pull up) when we're 6 seconds from impact (that's when we say screw engine limitations and passenger comfort, we're outta here). If we're paying attention to where we are, what our procedures are, and maintaining basic situational awareness we don't need GPS. Whether we have dual FMS, a G1000, or not but two VOR receivers, none of them are going to help if we're not ahead of the airplane and paying close attention to our charts...unlike what it sounds like these guys did. Whizz bang equipment is nice, but it's worthless if you're not utilizing it and everything around it to the fullest potential.

 

[sba55]

It certainly is not big, and it certainly doesn't have GPS. We do have GPWS, though, (Ground Proximity Warning System) which is nice, but it all comes down to the user. We don't have to worry a lot about terrain out here, though we did in LEB...GPWS only chimes in (Terrain, Terrain; Pull up, Pull up, Pull up) when we're 6 seconds from impact (that's when we say screw engine limitations and passenger comfort, we're outta here). If we're paying attention to where we are, what our procedures are, and maintaining basic situational awareness we don't need GPS. Whether we have dual FMS, a G1000, or not but two VOR receivers, none of them are going to help if we're not ahead of the airplane and paying close attention to our charts...unlike what it sounds like these guys did. Whizz bang equipment is nice, but it's worthless if you're not utilizing it and everything around it to the fullest potential.

100% agreed.

I haven't bothered with GPS yet, either. I'll probably get the Aspen Avionics Glass next year, but in the meantime, GPS wouldn't be some sort of magic solution for me. I've got dual VORs, DME, RNAV and loran. That's plenty to maintain situational awareness, but you've got to be looking at the instruments....

-Felix

 

[TeenDoc]

...Whizz bang equipment is nice, but it's worthless if you're not utilizing it and everything around it to the fullest potential.

Matthew, you're right.

When teaching medical students to auscultate we tell them that it doesn't matter how expensive the sthethoscope is, what matter is what's between the ear pieces, good ears and an even better brain.

I've seen this episode of Air Emergency several times (I record them.) and each time it never cease to amaze me how two very good pilots, flying a very good ship with the top technology of the time, could have been so behind the plane and disoriented that they failed to detect that they had punched in the wrong waypoint.

 

[Teller1900]

When teaching medical students to auscultate we tell them that it doesn't matter how expensive the sthethoscope is, what matter is what's between the ear pieces, good ears and an even better brain.

I can't believe I've never heard that expression before.