Air Ambulance crash

gprellwitz

gprellwitz

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Grant Prellwitz
Dang. Just found out that one of the Air Angels helicopters based at Clow is the one that crashed at midnight last night, killing the three crew members and the 13 mos old girl. They also evacuated a bunch of homes because a tower that the chopper clipped was deemed unstable and they were afraid the guy wires would slice through a home.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/...4794,aurora-helicopter-crash-au101608.article
 
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That's terrible news... Those air ambulance drivers are quite proficeint too.
Here at Wings Field, these airborne ambulance folks seem to always be in the air flying around Philly and the surrounding burbs. Knowing that when they are getting airborne is usually an indication that something somewhere is not going well makes it sound like not so fun flying.

That's really sad news for all involved.
 
Just read about that over in pprune. This is so sad. Just a week ago one went down near me and four perished in that as well (Maryland State Police Medevac).

Sad sad sad days for helicopter medivac.

Monk
 
Yes, I knew (and had flown with) the pilot of the MSP helicopter that went down. He was a damn fine pilot and he got killed for a pointless mission (the injuries of the victims being flown were very minor...at least one of them was up walking around talking on a cell phone to her mother prior to the ambulance arriving). This makes two friends in less than three months I've lost to medical helicopter crashes....what a waste of good people. Something needs to be done to reign in the misuse of air ambulances....

(Sorry, didn't mean to vent....I'm just tired of attending funerals)
 
The WGN reporter on day 2 said, "Air ambulances are lightly regulated."

:confused:

What more regulations do they expect? It's against the law to crash?
 
Hate to speak negatively about anything aviation but there are lots of reports and investigations into air ambulance safety and they are not heart-warming. Google air ambulance safety. I have read that 10% of the aa fleet had crashed at one point a few years back. Many say first responders to a patient will err on the side of speed, calling for the helo....when in most cases it really does not make much difference to the outcome. They are pressured by legal concerns no doubt. One article I read did an analysis of cost benefit (life and limb, not financial) and said that overall, the use of helicopters was detrimental to health! We have had our own fatal aa crash in my area too. Not sure what the system needs but it could do with some sort of improvement.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Hate to speak negatively about anything aviation but there are lots of reports and investigations into air ambulance safety and they are not heart-warming. Google air ambulance safety. I have read that 10% of the aa fleet had crashed at one point a few years back. Many say first responders to a patient will err on the side of speed, calling for the helo....when in most cases it really does not make much difference to the outcome. They are pressured by legal concerns no doubt. One article I read did an analysis of cost benefit (life and limb, not financial) and said that overall, the use of helicopters was detrimental to health! We have had our own fatal aa crash in my area too. Not sure what the system needs but it could do with some sort of improvement.
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I'm curious why this one had a nurse and a paramedic on board. Can't the nurse do paramedic stuff? :dunno:
 
mikea said:
I'm curious why this one had a nurse and a paramedic on board. Can't the nurse do paramedic stuff? :dunno:
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That's pretty much a normal medical crew setup. It's what we used most of the time in the airplanes and our partners did in the helicopters.
 
mikea said:
I'm curious why this one had a nurse and a paramedic on board. Can't the nurse do paramedic stuff? :dunno:
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Having two pairs of hands rather than one on the kinds of injuries you see on an air ambulance helicopter is often a necessity. Besides, they can carry two patients at a time.

Let'sgoflying! said:
Many say first responders to a patient will err on the side of speed, calling for the helo....when in most cases it really does not make much difference to the outcome.
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Okkay, let me put on my ex-paramedic hat. In the service I last belonged to (as a volunteer, for a total of 12 years), we called for the helicopter when we believed the patient's condition was such that they needed a trauma center, or other care that would not be readily available at the hospitals we went to by ground ambulance. Did it make a difference in outcome? Hard to say. I do believe the patients got a better chance than they would have had we transported them to a local hospital, then had then transferred out.

I got to spend a shift with the local air ambulance service (Houston's Life Flight) once upon a time. Very enlightening. One thing I did was talk to the chief pilot about minimums and the like...he was adamant that we should call, no matter what the weather, and they'd make the go/no-go decision based on their criteria - and would not go if the weather was below their minimums, period. (Only after I told him I was a pilot did he tell me what those minimums were: 500-1/2.)
 
Well, an acquaintance was flying the helicopter that dismantled the tower. It was also the cause of the TFR about 2NW of LL10 last weekend. Sobering.
 
Said. I live near the crash before this one (Maryland State Police AirMed). Four souls lost there also.

Monk
 
FYi update from the NTSB reported in the Chi Trib today
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/01/ntsb-copter-pilot-flew-too-low-in-fatal-crash.html

The pilot of an emergency medical helicopter that struck a radio tower in Aurora three months ago was flying several hundred feet lower than he should have been during night operations under his company's flight standards, according to an accident investigation update released today.

....

Air Angels flight operations called for pilots to fly about 1,500 feet mean sea level during the day and 1,500 to 1,700 feet mean sea level at night, according to the investigation. The accident occurred shortly before midnight.

Investigators found no indication of mechanical failure with the helicopter. While the investigation is continuing, signs point to pilot error, authorities said.
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I too have doubts about their effectiveness overall (for every person who would perish without one I would not be surprised if one perished because of one). However, I am quite certain that air ambulances are operated mostly because of their visibility.
 
steingar said:
I too have doubts about their effectiveness overall (for every person who would perish without one I would not be surprised if one perished because of one). However, I am quite certain that air ambulances are operated mostly because of their visibility.
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And their crashes are mostly due to lack of it.
 
steingar said:
I too have doubts about their effectiveness overall (for every person who would perish without one I would not be surprised if one perished because of one). However, I am quite certain that air ambulances are operated mostly because of their visibility.
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Why do you say that and what are you baseing your opinon on? Not trying to challange you or say your wrong I just find that a very interesting comment and didn't know if there was any data that supported it.
 
vontresc said:
There was an EMS crash here in WI last summer. They took off from LaCrosse heading back to Madison at night in MVFR conditions, and promptly ran themselves into the Mississippi river bluffs. Not sure why they didn't file.
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Well, here's a little tidbit from the NTSB report that's likely to get the operator in a bit of hot water, if not from the FAA then from the civil courts:

The accident pilot was hired by CJ Systems on March 1, 2001.
...
Air Methods Corporation purchased CJ Systems in March 2008, and the Madison-based pilots were transferred to Air Methods.

At the time of the transition to Air Methods, the pilots were provided a complete training program under the Air Methods operating certificate. Records indicated that the accident pilot completed basic indoctrination for Air Methods and EC-135 helicopter specific ground training in January 2008. He completed further training related to aeronautical knowledge and EC135P2 helicopter specific knowledge between February 2008 and April 2008. On March 10th and 11th, 2008, the accident pilot completed 3.5 hours flight training in an EC135T2+ helicopter. According to company records, he subsequently passed Part 135 Competency and Line Checks on March 11, 2008. An instrument proficiency check was not completed at that time.

According to company personnel, due to the high training demand resulting from the transition to the Air Methods certificate, all pilots were initially qualified as VFR-only. IFR proficiency checks were planned as recurrent training. As a result the accident pilot was limited to VFR-only operations at the time of the accident. According to a training pilot, the accident pilot was proficient and current for IFR operations under the previous CJ Systems operating certificate.
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AdamZ said:
Why do you say that and what are you baseing your opinon on? Not trying to challange you or say your wrong I just find that a very interesting comment and didn't know if there was any data that supported it.
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Years ago there was a 60 minutes piece on helicopter air ambulances, and to my knowledge it was the first time their safety problems were brought to light publicly. They were quite a bit worse then they are now, with pilot fatigue being to salient factor (apparently they were running 24 hour shifts). It was during that piece that pilots and hospital administrators were quoted as saying that it was maintained for the visibility it brought. When I think about the cost and danger involved, it is the only driving force that makes sense to me. Hospitals have allowed people to die in their waiting rooms.
 
steingar said:
I too have doubts about their effectiveness overall (for every person who would perish without one I would not be surprised if one perished because of one).
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I'd be flabbergasted if that was even remotely close to the truth. For every crash in the news there are thousands and thousands of missions that are completed incident-free. However, as someone in the EMS and rescue business I can say that I agree with you that they are often overused and many people have fallen out of the habit of assessing risk vs. benefit when requesting them, especially to a scene vs. a heliport or helispot.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'd be flabbergasted if that was even remotely close to the truth. For every crash in the news there are thousands and thousands of missions that are completed incident-free.
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The program with which I was associated started in 1972 and has had one fatal accident (helicopter) in its history back in the 1990s, I think. Of course one fatal accident in 36 years is tragic and too many but it's ludicrous to suggest that more people have been killed than saved.

Also, not all programs are IFR. I remember the helicopters being operated VFR only. I don't remember their minimums but we knew that when it was IFR, fixed wing would be busier.
 
The National Transportation Safety Board attributed the fatal 2008 crash of an Air Angels medical helicopter in Aurora to the pilot's "inadequate preflight planning" and flying too low, which caused the copter to strike a radio tower.

"During preflight planning, the pilot should have identified the obstacles along the route of flight, including the radio station tower," the report said.

The board's March 11 final report on the crash said the DuPage Airport air traffic controller contributed to the accident by failing to issue a safety alert, which is required by Federal Aviation Administration rules. This was a contributing factor but not the main cause of the accident, according to the report.

On Oct. 15, 2008, veteran pilot Delbert Waugh, 69, of Carmel, Ind., flew a Bell 222 helicopter into a roughly 734-foot-tall radio station tower. The Air Angels emergency medical helicopter was transporting a 14-month-old girl from a hospital in Sandwich to Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-0317-ntsb-air-angles-20100316,0,6961678.story
 
mikea said:
I'm curious why this one had a nurse and a paramedic on board. Can't the nurse do paramedic stuff? :dunno:
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Without special training and dispensation and oversight, no. With special dispensation and training beyond that of a nurse, yes, but their experience leading to the flight role is different. Not better nor worse, just different.

Nurses are trained in school to be generalists, and much of school really is weeding you out. You learn real world on your first job in an apprenticeship role.. indoors.. in good lighting.. with lots of support staff.. and lots of specialists around. School is about big picture, whole body, long term implications, and encompasses so much more than just the short term acute care setting.

Paramedics are trained primarily in trauma and cardiology. Actual skills practice - airway management, immobilization, rapid assessment and treatment decisionmaking, without the benefit of extensive labs, xrays or back up. Its drilled in your head, its practiced regularly. Nurses may spend a few days in a skills lab where medics will spend an entire semester. Consequently, a green rookie paramedic is still minimally proficient to actually go and manage a life threatening emergency on day one (provided they actually recognize it :devil: in front of them). They work in the dark, the rain, the cold, with patients trapped upside down. Its not an exaggeration when I tell you peers have started IV's on inverted, pinned in patients with gasoline leaking on them. Or intubated and started resuscitating someone who was strapped in upside down. I've had to go under water to enter a vehicle for an entrapped patient rescue... in the winter. . Not typical nursing fare..

There are things I can do as a paramedic, that I would lose my job and my license for if I performed them as a nurse.

In an aeromedical setting, many of the flight nurses are (or are expected to become) cross trained and cross credentialed as paramedics. It IS an ambulance.. and many EMS boards require credentialing as an EMS person if your regular role is working on an ambulance of any sort..

So really then.. its about complimenting skills: your flight nurses tend to have years of ICU/ER/Trauma management in house with all sorts of gadgets and special therapies. Your medics tend to have down and dirty street skills, for lack of a better term..

Then another reason? Money... In my region, in my experience over the past 20 years, paramedics have tended to earn 2-3x the prevailing minimum wage.. so nowadays thats maxing out in the low 20's/hr.. STARTING nursing wages in my region average 4X min, and tend to top out at 5X.. So you can have a medical crew labor cost of $55/hr with a nurse/medic or a labor cost of closer to $70/hr with two nurses.. and that adds up over time..

Dave, a nurse AND paramedic.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'd be flabbergasted if that was even remotely close to the truth. For every crash in the news there are thousands and thousands of missions that are completed incident-free.
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But of those many many "Safe" incidents, how many truly were a tangible benefit to the patient.

In my medic days, I only called the helo in if they could do something I couldn't, or they had a clearly superior time advantage with a truly life or death patient. The suburbs where I worked, during non-rush hour times, I could load and go,treat enroute and be in the trauma bays before a helo could be dispatched, fly out, shut down, take the patient, fire up and fly back.

I am fortunate to be served by one of the safest programs in the nation (Memorial Hermann). Over 35 years, and in the last 25 years I can think of 1 off site landing for a fire, one tail strike from a temporary pad in a parking lot (broke the nurses back when it dropped in from 10 feet), and one fatal (T-T strap broke on a BK, first ever failure, that went on to set the life limit for that part). Its a small world, I knew each of the injured and deceased crewmembers personally.

Many other programs have had many many times the amount of accidents. Hermann's secret has always been, from day 1, to empower the pilots. There is no armchair second guessing. Pilot makes a go-no go without even knowing what kind of mission it is. Chief pilot insulates them from pressure, and their founding medical director backs him up.. and his word is GOD in that building..

And on more than one occasion when they guess wrong, they turn around, or even land out.. I've transported flight crews AND patients by ground from pastures and parking lots when it rolled in suddenly (on the coast, sometimes flying with a 1-2 point spread)
 
Doggtyred said:
But of those many many "Safe" incidents, how many truly were a tangible benefit to the patient.
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Well, that's the question, isn't it?

Even with services that aren't profit-driven, such as the one I crew, it takes discipline to avoid letting the hammer turn every one into a nail.
 
steingar said:
I too have doubts about their effectiveness overall (for every person who would perish without one I would not be surprised if one perished because of one). However, I am quite certain that air ambulances are operated mostly because of their visibility.
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I think the VTOL capabilities of choppers is a more likely reason, with their cruise speed being the next likely reason.
 
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