Aim chapter 4 radar question

[Archimago]

In the AIM 4-1-18
a.

5. Sequencing for VFR aircraft is available at certain terminal locations (see locations listed in the Chart Supplement U.S.).

I looked through the Chart Supplement and can’t find this information.

thanks,
Richard

more inane questions coming

 

[dmspilot]

In the AIM 4-1-18
a.

5. Sequencing for VFR aircraft is available at certain terminal locations (see locations listed in the Chart Supplement U.S.).

I looked through the Chart Supplement and can’t find this information.

thanks,
Richard

more inane questions coming

This would normally be TRSA, Class B, or Class C radar service. There used to be a few airports that were Class D that did not have TRSAs yet had their own approach/departure control, but I'm not sure if any still exist. edit: Reading and Clarksburg are two examples as Brad Z pointed out.

 

[Brad Z]

In the AIM 4-1-18
a.

5. Sequencing for VFR aircraft is available at certain terminal locations (see locations listed in the Chart Supplement U.S.).

I looked through the Chart Supplement and can’t find this information.

thanks,
Richard

more inane questions coming

This is referring to towered airports that have radar approach control services available. These could be class D airports with their own approach control like Reading (RDG) Clarksburg (CKB), or airports near another Tracon such as White Plains (HPN) or Lynchburg (LYH). Functionally they work like any other airport with approach control, but contact with the approach controller is not mandatory. TRSAs are the same, however TRSAs have charted rings to depict service area.

 

[Brad Z]

This would normally be TRSA, Class B, or Class C radar service. There used to be a few airports that were Class D that did not have TRSAs yet had their own approach/departure control, but I'm not sure if any still exist.

TRSAs, class C and Class B airspace are discussed in sections b, c, and d of 4-1-18.

 

[Archimago]

So if it were a class D airport, is there something in the Supplement that would indicate they had radar?

 

[Velocity173]

So if it were a class D airport, is there something in the Supplement that would indicate they had radar?

Not a chart supp but it’ll have approach freqs listed like this.

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KNBC

 

[Brad Z]

So if it were a class D airport, is there something in the Supplement that would indicate they had radar?

It does. Look for a "R" with a circle around in in the listing in the chart supplement under approach control.

 

[Brad Z]

Yes, I know they are. You did read the rest of my post?

Sorry, that was for the OP.

 

[luvflyin]

In the AIM 4-1-18
a.

5. Sequencing for VFR aircraft is available at certain terminal locations (see locations listed in the Chart Supplement U.S.).

I looked through the Chart Supplement and can’t find this information.

thanks,
Richard

more inane questions coming

You go to Section 2 of the Chart Supplement. The A/FD. That’s where you will find if the airport is one of those described in 4-1-18 a. 1. (d). Look for the AIRSPACE entry.

 

[luvflyin]

TRSAs, class C and Class D airspace are discussed in sections B, C, and D Of 5-1-18.

I think you meant b. c. and d. of 4-1-18. There is no 5-1-18. There are also descriptions of Services Provided in 3-2-3, 3-2-4 and 3-2-5.

 

[dmspilot]

It does. Look for a "R" with a circle around in in the listing in the chart supplement under approach control.

That does not indicate that VFR sequencing is available though.

You go to Section 2 of the Chart Supplement. The A/FD. That’s where you will find if the airport is one of those described in 4-1-18 a. 1. (d). Look for the AIRSPACE entry.

Nor that.

I do not believe the information actually exists in CS as described by the AIM, seems to be an error.

 

[Brad Z]

I think you meant b. c. and d. of 4-1-18. There is no 5-1-18. There are also descriptions of Services Provided in 3-2-3, 3-2-4 and 3-2-5.

Thanks, edited. Trying to do much from my iPhone screen.

 

[Brad Z]

That does not indicate that VFR sequencing is available though.

Why wouldn't VFR sequencing be from a radar approach control?

 

[dmspilot]

Why wouldn't VFR sequencing be from a radar approach control?

It's not part of Basic Radar Service unless implemented by LOA. Especially not when landing at an E or G field. Kind of the reason OP started the thread.

 

[Brad Z]

What part of "certain terminal locations" are you having trouble with? It's not part of Basic Radar Service unless implemented by LOA. Especially not when landing at an E or G field. Kind of the reason OP started the thread.

you won't see sequencing into a non-towered class e or class g airport, but you will see sequencing into busier class D towered airports. From the 7110.65:

Section 6. Basic Radar Service to VFR Aircraft− Terminal

7−6−1. APPLICATION
a. Basic radar services for VFR aircraft must include:
1. Safety alerts.
2. Traffic advisories.
3. Limited radar vectoring when requested by the pilot.
4. Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a LOA.

 

[dmspilot]

you won't see sequencing into a non-towered class e or class g airport, but you will see sequencing into busier class D towered airports. From the 7110.65:

Section 6. Basic Radar Service to VFR Aircraft− Terminal

7−6−1. APPLICATION
a. Basic radar services for VFR aircraft must include:
1. Safety alerts.
2. Traffic advisories.
3. Limited radar vectoring when requested by the pilot.
4. Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a LOA.

"where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a LOA"

OP wants to know which ones. You aren't answering the actual question.

 

[Brad Z]

"where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a LOA"

OP wants to know which ones. You aren't answering the actual question.

I've come to the same conclusion that it doesn't exist in the chart supplement.

 

[Brad Z]

Okay, I think I solved this question. The answer is the A/FD, the predecessor of the CS, had the answer….about 30 years ago.

Back in the early 90s, the U.S. transitioned from ATAs, TRSAs, ARSAs, and TCAs to class D, class C, and class B airspace. Prior to that, radar services were classified as stage I, stage II, and stage III. These classifications were noted in the A/FD.

Following the classification, the radar stage designations went away. This is still noted in the AIM:
“Stage II” has been eliminated in conjunction with the airspace reclassification, and sequencing services to locations with local procedures and/or letters of agreement to provide this service have been included in basic services to VFR aircraft.

So now sequencing is an LOA issue that is not described in the CS. The note referenced by the OP has been obsolete for at about 30 years. For reference, I’m attaching the section of the AIM circa 1993 that has the same note, but referenced by stage II and stage III. When they updated the AIM to reflect the new airspace classifications, they never did away with the note referencing that the A/FD (and later the CS) reflects where sequencing is available.

So yeah, the AIM needs an update.

 

[GeorgeC]

The only reference to "sequencing" in the CS I could find was for Dover:
"VFR sequencing svc 25 NM out on 125.9 282.325"

 

[mondtster]

There used to be a few airports that were Class D that did not have TRSAs yet had their own approach/departure control, but I'm not sure if any still exist. edit: Reading and Clarksburg are two examples as Brad Z pointed out.

There are still a lot of them around, at least in the north central US. Almost every class D airport not adjacent to C or B airspace seems to have approach control out here.

Off the top of my head, FSD, SUX, RST, ALO, DLH, GFK, and BIS have their own approach control and no TRSA.

 

[Brad Z]

There are still a lot of them around, at least in the north central US. Almost every class D airport not adjacent to C or B airspace seems to have approach control out here.

Off the top of my head, FSD, SUX, RST, ALO, DLH, GFK, and BIS have their own approach control and no TRSA.

A ton of military airports are set up this way. Between my home field and North Carolina, I pass through Quantico, Pax River, Oceana, Seymour Johnson, and Cherry Point--all military class D airports with approach control facilities. There are plenty more out there...

 

[Velocity173]

Yuma has a large chunk of airspace for a class D approach.

 

[luvflyin]

A ton of military airports are set up this way. Between my home field and North Carolina, I pass through Quantico, Pax River, Oceana, Seymour Johnson, and Cherry Point--all military class D airports with approach control facilities. There are plenty more out there...

Quantico is run by Potomac Approach.

 

[luvflyin]

Yuma has a large chunk of airspace for a class D approach.

Yup. It’s a joint use airport. YUMA MCAS/YUMA INTL (NYL)(KNYL). Jumping in the Way Back Machine here. It used to have two identifiers, NYL and YUM. This was before the K days. You could file to either, but when you called FSS to close your Flight Plan they’d get a little confused if you filed to NYL. Base Ops would get it, but FSS wouldn’t. Fast forward to the K days. KYUM is a thang. At least Foreflight thinks so.

 

[Velocity173]

MCAS New River has Arrival. Rare.

 

[Archimago]

Thanks to all for the help! I was looking for a listing in the chart supplement but now I know better

 

[luvflyin]

Thanks to all for the help! I was looking for a listing in the chart supplement but now I know better

Cool. Waiting for next inane question.

 

[luvflyin]

MCAS New River has Arrival. Rare.

Yeah. Lotsa navy/mc ones also have a Radar. I think Lemoore had all of it’s SFA frequencies in the A/FD years ago.

 

[Velocity173]

Yeah. Lotsa navy/mc ones also have a Radar. I think Lemoore had all of it’s SFA frequencies in the A/FD years ago.

We had an arrival position in Okinawa but only one dude was qualified to work it. Never opened while I was there. Just wasn’t busy enough. At NBC we used arrival a lot. A rare position stuck between GCA and approach.

 

[luvflyin]

We had an arrival position in Okinawa but only one dude was qualified to work it. Never opened while I was there. Just wasn’t busy enough. At NBC we used arrival a lot. A rare position stuck between GCA and approach.

That was called Pattern at NLC. There were two, East and West. Didn’t have a frequency though. The planes were on a ‘button’ by the time Patterns got them. I’m guessing it was maybe the same at NBC?? I see the A/FD has one SFA freq published. That seems odd. Why just one? Why any at all? Years ago, there were a lot of them in NLC’s A/FD entry. I think it’s probably just some guys idea of what to do whose job it was to do the A/FD entry. That Arrival position at NBC, did it have it’s own Frequency? Was it 134.1? Would pilots pop up on it? Would it take handoffs from adjacent facilities. Wonder how Foreflight got it. It’s not in the A/FD.

 

[Velocity173]

That was called Pattern at NLC. There were two, East and West. Didn’t have a frequency though. The planes were on a ‘button’ by the time Patterns got them. I’m guessing it was maybe the same at NBC?? I see the A/FD has one SFA freq published. That seems odd. Why just one? Why any at all? Years ago, there were a lot of them in NLC’s A/FD entry. I think it’s probably just some guys idea of what to do whose job it was to do the A/FD entry. That Arrival position at NBC, did it have it’s own Frequency? Was it 134.1? Would pilots pop up on it? Would it take handoffs from adjacent facilities. Wonder how Foreflight got it. It’s not in the A/FD.

View attachment 110250

It’s confusing the way it’s listed on ForeFlight. Air nav has the SFAs listed though. Even then it isn’t clear because 134.1 is an SFA buts it’s not listed under SFA. They actually call it approach on there as well but really it’s just an arrival that’s assigned 3,000 ft and below. Used to be just an unpublished arrival with no designated airspace. Late 90s it became sectorized but you still didn’t get a RATCF rating until signed off on “high” approach.

When I was at Miramar my OIC asked me to assess the possibility of setting up an arrival there. As if being an approach controller qualifies me to do an airspace evaluation. At any rate, I reported back that it wouldn’t be a good idea for two reasons. First, Miramar just doesn’t get that many practice approaches. They get a bunch of arrivals but most are overheads. The rest of the arrivals are mostly VAs or PAR/TACAN full stops. We really wouldn’t relieve SOCAL much by doing that. Second, we’d be opening ourselves up to possible operational errors being so close to Lindbergh’s pattern. Keeping it a GCA with no arrival just made the most sense.