Age & Training

[patmike]

I started at 52 after a 6 year career as a stock car owner and driver. If I knew what I know now I would have never gotten in a race car and had my cert. by now. My progress has been kind of slow lately due to my wife being out of work, but i love every time i get to fly. age? i don't think it matters. it's money and attitude that'll get you there.

 

[Old Geek]

I passed my pp checkride last year at 59. I learned and passed the checkride in a plane that's considered by many to be squirrelly and a bad trainer (Flight Design CTSW). I love the plane and love flying.

 

[steingar]

Your point was not correct. The condition can be, and is diagnosed millions of times every year. Your assertion that "there is no mechanism in our system to test cognitive ability" is utter claptrap.

The diagnosis for Alzheimers is the apparent senile dementia, which presents in a somewhat characteristic fashion in Alheimers cases. That said, by the time any determination is made the patient is well past being able to fly an airplane.

 

[Captain]

The diagnosis for Alzheimers is the apparent senile dementia, which presents in a somewhat characteristic fashion in Alheimers cases. That said, by the time any determination is made the patient is well past being able to fly an airplane.

Don't bother, Doug has it all figured out and the rest is 'claptrap'.

 

[ChrisK]

Started 38 and finished 39. Had I started earlier I wouldn't have had the money to keep going anyway so I think 40s+ makes it as good as a time as any.

+1
I'm turning 39 in a few weeks and hope to finish for my birthday =D

 

[DouglasBader]

Don't bother, Doug has it all figured out and the rest is 'claptrap'.

Are you drunk again?

You've insisted on posting only inaccurate and bad information, and then on defending it.

You stated that there is no mechanism to test cognitive ability, that alzheimers cannot be diagnosed among the living, that no one would pull patient with alzheimers from the cockpit, and so on...all one hundred percent wrong. Are you this inaccurate sober, or can you blame this on an alcohol-fueled haze, once again?

The fact that one who has alzheimers and is so diagnosed can't be flying an airplane really belies anything you've had to say thus far, doesn't it? Why not quit, while you're behind?

 

[Captain]

Because I'm not behind.

You turn my words. Through spite or inability to understand I know not.

I said there is no mechanism in place to test pilots for mental decline. I also said I think Alzheimer's requires an autopsy to confirm the diagnosis. After you questened that I went and found a medical refrence to support that belief.

Stop turning my words to suit your idea of what you think I mean.

What has my stated position on this thread been:

- we do not have a system in place to test cognitive function of pilots. That's what I said and I haven't really heard much from you in opposition besides personal attacks. What test is performed to obtain a 3rd class medical or higher? Please name the test rather than cast insults at me. I know you want to call me drunk again, or use your 'trapclap' phrase again, but try to refrain and think real hard and name the test.

-Alzheimer's has to be confirmed by an autopsy. I'm not a doctor but that's what I've heard. A clinical diagnosis is not conclusive proof that's what the patient has, IIRC. Maybe that the way it was and now they have more conclusive tests, I don't know. Again I'm not a doctor. But you haven't really provided any answers either. Why do you call me drunk again? Maybe that will make it true that AMEs perform some sort of Alzheimer's test of medical exams and can conclusively diagnose Alzheimer's and deny the applicant.

-a pilot with cognitive deterioration, including Alzheimer's, can walk into an AMEs office and get their medical renewed. You brought up that an AME wouldn't give a pilot they knew had Alzheimer's a medical. Well, I never said they would. I said they don't f'ing test for it. Tell me the test. NAME the test you take when renewing a medical that tests your mind. Every test has a name. The eye test, the urine test, the hearing test, the heart test, blood pressure test...all of them. What's the name of the test performed to test the mind?

It's a low man to have no argument and cast names like 'drunk' around to belittle.

 

[DouglasBader]

I said there is no mechanism in place to test pilots for mental decline.

Your lack of experience betrays your statement. There are plenty of mechanisms in place to test pilots for mental acumen and cognitive ability. That you haven't been around enough to see this simply means you haven't been around much.

We've discussed this already. Read.

Stop turning my words to suit your idea of what you think I mean.

Start meaning what you think you say. Then stop posting drunk.

- we do not have a system in place to test cognitive function of pilots.

We do, and this has been addressed. Quite obviously you haven't been in the industry long enough to have interviewed somewhere that applied such tests, or been to any meaningful training which continued to monitor cognitive abilities throughout the training.

When you were hired at your current position, perhaps your employer handed you a coloring book and elected to take you on board when you were able to stay inside the lines. Who knows?

Were you able to stay inside the lines? Was it less than a ten-beer morning?

You stated: "-a pilot with cognitive deterioration, including Alzheimer's, can walk into an AMEs office and get their medical renewed." Where do you find this to be acceptable under 14 CFR Part 67?

Then again, under 67.107(a)(4)(ii)(d), your own stability under the mental standards for issuance of a medical certificate may be in question, given that you've admitted to and exhibited on an ongoing basis continued use of alcohol despite impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning. Perhaps you ought not worry about the potential alzheimers patient and concentrate on your own standing under the regulation.

§ 67.107 Mental.

Mental standards for a first-class airman medical certificate are:

(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

(1) A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts.

(2) A psychosis. As used in this section, “psychosis” refers to a mental disorder in which:

(i) The individual has manifested delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition; or

(ii) The individual may reasonably be expected to manifest delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition.

(3) A bipolar disorder.

(4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—

(i) “Substance” includes: Alcohol; other sedatives and hypnotics; anxiolytics; opioids; central nervous system stimulants such as cocaine, amphetamines, and similarly acting sympathomimetics; hallucinogens; phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines; cannabis; inhalants; and other psychoactive drugs and chemicals; and

(ii) “Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance, other than tobacco or ordinary xanthine-containing (e.g., caffeine) beverages, as evidenced by—

(A) Increased tolerance;

(B) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;

(C) Impaired control of use; or

(D) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.

(b) No substance abuse within the preceding 2 years defined as:

(1) Use of a substance in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous, if there has been at any other time an instance of the use of a substance also in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous;

(2) A verified positive drug test result, an alcohol test result of 0.04 or greater alcohol concentration, or a refusal to submit to a drug or alcohol test required by the U.S. Department of Transportation or an agency of the U.S. Department of Transportation; or

(3) Misuse of a substance that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the substance involved, finds—

(i) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or

(ii) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.

(c) No other personality disorder, neurosis, or other mental condition that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition involved, finds—

(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or

(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.

Finally, you tell us that "A clinical diagnosis is not conclusive proof that's what the patient has, IIRC." Given that you've asserted that an autopsy is required to provide conclusive proof, are you attempting to state that only a dead patient may satisfactorily be issued or denied a medical because of the patient's mental condition? It's the only reasonable conclusion based on your twisted logic, and let's face it, such a conclusion is idiotic.

You'll note that the medical standard under 67.107(a) is a clinical diagnosis. "Conclusive proof" isn't required. A clinical diagnosis of any personality disorder or psychosis is adequate to deny the medical, and the FAA takes that quite seriously.

 

[Captain]

So, you're not going to name the test the AME performs during a medical are you?


I do like your phrase 'claptrap' though and thank you for providing example after example. Perhaps if I were drinking youd be more tolerable.



PS, did I gather above that you think the interview psych eval is where pilots are mentally tested? Sheesh, I stand corrected, we DO have mental testing in aviation...well spotted! Pilots who interview at some companies. And if they fail, well....well, they still fly. They just don't get hired. Great system testing Doug. I think maybe you're the one drinking.

 

[DouglasBader]

PS, did I gather above that you think the interview psych eval is where pilots are mentally tested?

You're asking me what you understand? Shouldn't you be the one to decide that? Are you not able?

Have you never been given a cognitive abilities test? Too busy laughing at copilots who turn on the strobes when crossing an active runway and railing on copilots who don't share your imaginary notions of high speed taxiways? It's probably just as well you haven't encountered these tests.

 

[Captain]

The name Doug. What's the name of the test?

Can you at least describe the standardised procedure AMEs use to test mental abilities? Quit blathering and name calling and answer the VERY simple question.

We've all had medicals here. Anyone remember the mental test Doug speaks of?

 

[DouglasBader]

The name Doug. What's the name of the test?

You mean the official title of the test, to go with the other technical names you've already provided, such as The eye test, the urine test, the hearing test, the heart test, blood pressure test..."? How do you expect to be taken seriously?

You've been given the regulatory medical standard for issuance of the medical certificate. Be happy.

Or not...it appears you don't meet the requirements of 67.107, as it turns out.

Anyone remember the mental test Doug speaks of?

That would be "of which Doug speaks," but that's not important right now. Your'e the one speaking of this mythical test, along with the highly technical "eye test," "urine test," "hearing test," "blood pressure test," and my favorite, the "heart test." Where did you get those technical descriptions?

I said nothing of a "mental test." You did, though.

 

[Captain]

Just admit there is no test.


It's easy. There isn't and you know it. Say it! You know I'm right. God, you're like a third grader.

 

[DouglasBader]

The "test" assertion is yours, not mine. I can't admit for you, just as I won't guess at what you understand or are thinking.

You can speak for yourself. You are the one babbling about a test; any admissions thereof are yours, not mine.

You must learn to speak for yourself. Can you do it?

 

[Captain]

I don't see how you operate a bathtub let alone a plane. This all started because I said there is no test of pilots cognitive ability and you took issue. I think we're done here as your posts have gone past just taking what I say out of context and have moved to the truly bizarre.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

"That's a hell'uv a catch, that catch 22"

 

[Swampfox201]

I'll tell you guys something. I.....ummmm .......Crap forgot what I was gonna say.

 

[DouglasBader]

This all started because I said there is no test of pilots cognitive ability and you took issue.

That was one of the things you got wrong, among many. Of course there are many tests of a pilot's cognitive ability, and these have been addressed.

You've attempted to isolate and shoehorn this "test" into the other tests you couldn't properly identify, as performed by an AME for medical certification. You've tried to define yourself into a corner, and have done an admirable job, except for all those official "eye tests," and "heart tests" and so on.

You have some serious cognitive problems, and perhaps that's why you fail to understand.

 

[Captain]

And yet we still wait for you to name (or describe) said test.

I'll say it again, there currently is not a standardized evaluation of a pilots mental state during a medical. Either you agree with that statement or post what test I'm overlooking. Stop saying you've already said because you haven't. Post the quote if you feel that strongly.

But you won't. You'll call more names and throw a tantrum. I really am done here.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

And yet we still wait for you to name (or describe) said test.

I'll say it again, there are no test in our current pilot medical system to test for cognitive ability. Reading your responses to that simple observation make me feel even stronger there should be.

 

[DouglasBader]

I'll say it again, there currently is not a standardized evaluation of a pilots mental state during a medical.

I never stated there was.

You stated that there is no test for a pilot's cognitive ability, and you are absolutely wrong. You also stated that no one will remove a pilot form service because of their mental state, or because they might have alzheimers. You're absolutely wrong.

Do you speak from personal experience?

I really am done here.

So you've said before. We both know you're not.

 

[Captain]

I never stated there was.

You stated that there is no test for a pilot's cognitive ability, and you are absolutely wrong. You also stated that no one will remove a pilot form service because of their mental state, or because they might have alzheimers. You're absolutely wrong.

Do you speak from personal experience?



So you've said before. We both know you're not.

: )

...................

 

[DouglasBader]

Thought so.

 

[jesse]

My most difficult student was 73 years old. It was certainly more of a challenge to teach him then it is to teach my students in their 20s. That said, I'm pretty sure I could have made a private pilot out of him. The only reason it didn't work out was because he was unable to schedule flights and dedicate enough time towards it since he was tending for his wife whom is in much worse shape than he.

 

[Captain]

Thought so.

You don't get to gloat until you tell us the name of the test. Google it. Share your vast wisdom. Pray tell us master pilot with 5 stripes. What test is performed?


Oh yeah....nothing. 'Thought so'.

 

[cleared4theoption]

Well...at least we didn't have to wade through another p#*$ing match to get some useful information out of this thread...oh...wait, nevermind.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I think the unrealistic expectations also sometimes stem from having been successful in their career and believing that is going to carry over to flying which is a completely different endeavor. It can be an unfamiliar and somewhat disturbing feeling for someone who is used to success to not have something come to them right away.

I am not old but I have been "good" at doing what I do for almost 15 years now in the corporate world. What you said EXACTLY explains how I felt, thought I did not realize it at the time. I would get so upset when I didn't "get" something right away, especially when I started reading about people's training online and seeing them "beat me" to a milestone or "be better than me" at something. It was so awful. Now, of course, all of that is gone and I know if I get other ratings it will be a lot different.