Aerobatic Plane Help

[acropilot]

Not sure if this should go here or in the acro thread, but...

Any opinions/comparisons of the Zlin 242L vs a Super Decathlon. I'm looking at the possibility of using one as an aerobatic trainer and was wonder what your thoughts were. I've flown a SuperD multiple times but never a Zlin.

Thanks

 

[Inverted]

Zlin is a cool airplane. Very similar in capibility although I have never flown a 242L.

 

[Dr. O]

What is the cost of parts and maintenance for the Zlin versus the Super D? That should be the criteria - not what some of us might WANT to fly...

denny-o

 

[PittsDriver]

What is the cost of parts and maintenance for the Zlin versus the Super D? That should be the criteria - not what some of us might WANT to fly...

denny-o

Certainly cost and parts/maintenance availability should be a big factor but if I was starting up a training business to offer aerobatic and spin instruction, I'd probably want to pick the aircraft that my customers want to fly. Cheap to operate is only part of the business equation and revenue has been known to be a contributing factor in success.

That said, you'll see Super D's at most any aerobatic competition and there are a healthy number of places to go for instruction in them. It's a proven trainer with lots of fleet hours - not so much for the Zlin. I've only met a few people with Zlins and they were all looking to get out of them into Pitts.

 

[whifferdill]

Do you mean to buy or just rent time in? The Super D is widely recognized as one of the best acro trainers due to its relative lack or performance and need for copious rudder use. Ditto what PittsDriver said about them. The Zlin would definitely be something different, though. Are you currently tailwheel endorsed? If so, I can't imagine wanting to fly an aerobatic trike in the first place. If not, then training in a trike is only delaying the inevitable should you want to change or upgrade from the limited performance of the Zlin (you will), given that 99% of aerobatic aircraft have tailwheels.

Also keep in mind that in the Zlin you will be flying with a left-hand stick and right-hand throttle which again will be the reverse of 99% of aerobatic planes. Most people can adapt to either setup, but it'll still take some adjustment to program the opposite hand to be consistent with the muscle memory and feel you had developed with the other.

 

[elmetal]

Not sure if this should go here or in the acro thread, but...

Any opinions/comparisons of the Zlin 242L vs a Super Decathlon. I'm looking at the possibility of using one as an aerobatic trainer and was wonder what your thoughts were. I've flown a SuperD multiple times but never a Zlin.

Thanks

the 242L is AWESOME!!!!
If you want to see a flying one to get a good understanding of the airplane, go to Leesburg, FL to Wingover Aerobatics and talk to Steve Wolf, he's a fantastic guy and the zlin is a fantastic plane.

Some people will come down on you though saying side by side all metal tricycle geared doesn't make an aerobatic plane but... it's amazing to fly

 

[elmetal]

Do you mean to buy or just rent time in? The Super D is widely recognized as one of the best acro trainers due to its relative lack or performance and need for copious rudder use. Ditto what PittsDriver said about them. The Zlin would definitely be something different, though. Are you currently tailwheel endorsed? If so, I can't imagine wanting to fly an aerobatic trike in the first place. If not, then training in a trike is only delaying the inevitable should you want to change or upgrade from the limited performance of the Zlin (you will), given that 99% of aerobatic aircraft have tailwheels.

Also keep in mind that in the Zlin you will be flying with a left-hand stick and right-hand throttle which again will be the reverse of 99% of aerobatic planes. Most people can adapt to either setup, but it'll still take some adjustment to program the opposite hand to be consistent with the muscle memory and feel you had developed with the other.

or you can sit in the right seat

 

[acropilot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cockpit pics I've seen so far have a throttle on each pilot's left.

I have my tailwheel endorsement, and have flown acro in a SuperD, Great Lakes and Yak 52 (limited in the 52 though). I was considering the Zlin because of its potential as an all around trainer. (basic, IFR and acro).

One other aircraft which looks interesting is the PZL M26, but I don't have a ton of info on it. Also, the operating costs are higher as it is a complex aircraft.

Thanks so far, please feel free to continue the suggestions.

 

[Inverted]

If you want a nice acro/IFR/cruise platform, get a marchetti SF260.

 

[djpacro]

The Zlin 242 is a nice aeroplane and, in my opinion, very capable. Yes, you get your own throttle so stick is in the right hand.
Personally I wouldn't buy one with the concern about spare parts and support - there aren't many in the country (yours or mine). Biggest query is the aerobatic life limitation - this Australian AD reflects the manufacturer's Service Bulletin for those without the reinforced wing:
http://www.casa.gov.au/ADFiles/under/z-242l/Z-242L-003.pdf

This Directive prohibits Aerobatic category flights for Zlin Z 42 series aircraft with non-reinforced wings, restricts certain aircraft to Normal category operations, limits to 190 flight hours the time that can be flown under Aerobatic and Utility categories, and introduces new life limits and new inspection requirements to be inserted into the operator’s maintenance programmes.

I love my Decathlon, especially as a trainer.

 

[rottydaddy]

I was considering the Zlin because of its potential as an all around trainer. (basic, IFR and acro).

Sounds like you're thinking of buying a plane... in that case, and with the criteria you mention, the Zlin would probably be better. Ditto the point about purchase price/parts/service issues compared to a Decathlon, but despite that, and the "Deke" being an awesome acro trainer and just a good airplane, a 242 would probably be a better "all-rounder."

The little acro I've done was in a 242, and it was pretty fancy for an aerobatic trainer. Roomy, comfy, and very solid in the air. Probably a better platform for traveling and IFR flying, yet also very capable for entry-level aerobatics.

Another point: if you're looking to give instruction, the Zlin would appeal to more students, despite cost- not everybody does well with tandem seating.

I probably shouldn't be favoring a low-wing trike over a wonderful taildragger like the Decathlon, LOL, but for your mission (as I understand it) the Zlin sounds like a better fit.

 

[Inverted]

Another point: if you're looking to give instruction, the Zlin would appeal to more students, despite cost- not everybody does well with tandem seating.

I disagree. I teach in both tandem and side by side aerobatic aircraft. Tandem is much better suited for acro. It is hard to teach competition acro with off axis seating.

And as for appealing to more students, the Super D is more recognizable, and much more common.

 

[Inverted]

And reading more about the 242, the Decathlon might be a bit better suited for aerobatics. I couldn't find any info regarding inverted spins or outside maneuvers in the 242.

 

[PittsDriver]

I was considering the Zlin because of its potential as an all around trainer. (basic, IFR and acro).

Seems like a good idea on paper - in real life, not so much. It won't do any of those things very well (basic, instrument, acro). Everything that makes an aircraft better for acro makes it worse for instrument - everything. I would have gone way out of my way though to have taken my basic flight training in a tail wheel aircraft but none were available. Primary training, spin, upset, and acro training - go with the Super D or something similar.

 

[elmetal]

Seems like a good idea on paper - in real life, not so much. It won't do any of those things very well (basic, instrument, acro). Everything that makes an aircraft better for acro makes it worse for instrument - everything. I would have gone way out of my way though to have taken my basic flight training in a tail wheel aircraft but none were available. Primary training, spin, upset, and acro training - go with the Super D or something similar.

I agree here. I wish I could've learned in a taildragger with no electronics (ala piper cub). But there was literally not one around for a few counties.
But hey, it is what it is.

With that said, I think what would make the Zlin great for training is the fact that it's really not stable on its axis (which is what I liked about it for acro).

If you pull the nose in a 172, it'll come back down and stabilize. The Zlin really doesn't..

That coupled with the fact that it's a constant speed prop I think makes it a lot of fun to fly and a lot of stuff for a beginner, but I think once you teach someone how to fly a Zlin, a 172 is a breeze to fly.

 

[Ken Ibold]

The Super D has some production, uh, shortcomings in terms of substandard fittings and hardware. It also should not be snap rolled unless you like replacing fuel tanks. Depending on the vintage you'd be looking at, there are also paint issues in some model years. Other issues would include a discussion on the life and care of fabric vs. metal airplanes.

That said, the Super D is a nice flying airplane. I don't have any experience with the Zlin.