Aerobacits
- Thread starter vkhosid
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Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
Legal, unless you exceed the 129 mph Vne. Has more to do with the certification process back then than any guarantee of suitability.
Unwise, unless you know the airplane intimately (maintenance and history-wise) and know it to be sound, and are competent to do aerobatics yourself.
Jim
vkhosid
Cleared for Takeoff
Thanks. Not that I was going to hop into a Champ and start doing weird stuff, but I was just curious.
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
You're welcome! Aerobatics isn't 'weird stuff'...it's controlling the airplane thru the entire envelope
IMHO YMMVThere are people who, when they were young and stupid, bought a Champ, rebuilt it, and did more things than they were qualified to do in it...and lived to post on POA. I've heard... from folks
Jim
PS-....but the 7AC's were 45 years younger then.
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vkhosid
Cleared for Takeoff
You're welcome! Aerobatics isn't 'weird stuff'...it's controlling the airplane thru the entire envelope
There are people who, when they were young and stupid, bought a Champ, rebuilt it, and did more things than they were qualified to do in it...and lived to post on POA. I've heard... from folks
Jim
HAHA...dually noted. I was just curious because at the place I rent my plane from, the 7AC is 88/hr, while the EA-200 is 300/hr...
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
HAHA...dually noted. I was just curious because at the place I rent my plane from, the 7AC is 88/hr, while the EA-200 is 300/hr...
I'd recommend learning all the nuances the Champ can teach you right-side up, then moving along to the Extra.
Jim
vkhosid
Cleared for Takeoff
flyingriki
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flyingriki
Is it different than groundobacits or navalbacits?
Austin_Marshall
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Anything that is excuted with skill and not unwise/unlegal either as excessive speed. But make sure you are doing in a plane designed and stressed for acro.
champ driver
Line Up and Wait
The first thing to remember is that most of these 7AC's are nearly 70 years old now.
The second thing is that a Champ is no Citabria, even though the basic airframe is very similar.
I would not do any real aerobatics in any Champ that I did not know very well, like a proper restoration, or inspected by myself.
I owned my Champ for 20 years before I decided to restore it and was somewhat surprised by the things I found inside the wings. My Champ was recovered in it's past but never had a full restoration. I found some really atrocious repairs on the ribs with a mix of AN and pop rivets used. Some of the AN rivets were driven by a blind man with a hammer.
You have to remember these planes were inexpensive planes years ago and repairs were done on a budget.
All those ribs and other issues have now been replaced in it's restoration.
The Champ is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, which I have listed below from an L-16 manual. The L-16 is a 85 or 90 hp Champ, but it's still not a Citabria.
That being said, I did ride though a few loops and rolls when the previous owner did them while I was in the back seat before I bought my Champ.
I have never done a loop or roll in my Champ. I do like lazy 8's and wingovers and spins and have done many of those. I do like the 70 degree bank lazy 8's and wingovers, but those are always low G maneuvers.
The important thing is to KNOW what you are doing and not over stress the plane, or exceed the VNE.
Here is the list of approved maneuvers I found on the web from a L-16 manual.
Sorry, it won't let me cut and paste the whole chapter.
Normal stall
Normal spin
Slow roll (do not exceed 85 mph ias)
Vertical bank (do not exceed 70 degree bank) I believe they are talking about level flight here.
Snap roll (do not exceed 85 mph ias)
Half roll
I would never do a snap roll in a Champ no matter what the manual says.
The Champ is a great little plane for easy fun and learning tailwheel training. It's inexpensive and affordable, fly it like it's 1946 again.
The second thing is that a Champ is no Citabria, even though the basic airframe is very similar.
I would not do any real aerobatics in any Champ that I did not know very well, like a proper restoration, or inspected by myself.
I owned my Champ for 20 years before I decided to restore it and was somewhat surprised by the things I found inside the wings. My Champ was recovered in it's past but never had a full restoration. I found some really atrocious repairs on the ribs with a mix of AN and pop rivets used. Some of the AN rivets were driven by a blind man with a hammer.
You have to remember these planes were inexpensive planes years ago and repairs were done on a budget.
All those ribs and other issues have now been replaced in it's restoration.
The Champ is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, which I have listed below from an L-16 manual. The L-16 is a 85 or 90 hp Champ, but it's still not a Citabria.
That being said, I did ride though a few loops and rolls when the previous owner did them while I was in the back seat before I bought my Champ.
I have never done a loop or roll in my Champ. I do like lazy 8's and wingovers and spins and have done many of those. I do like the 70 degree bank lazy 8's and wingovers, but those are always low G maneuvers.
The important thing is to KNOW what you are doing and not over stress the plane, or exceed the VNE.
Here is the list of approved maneuvers I found on the web from a L-16 manual.
Sorry, it won't let me cut and paste the whole chapter.
Normal stall
Normal spin
Slow roll (do not exceed 85 mph ias)
Vertical bank (do not exceed 70 degree bank) I believe they are talking about level flight here.
Snap roll (do not exceed 85 mph ias)
Half roll
I would never do a snap roll in a Champ no matter what the manual says.
The Champ is a great little plane for easy fun and learning tailwheel training. It's inexpensive and affordable, fly it like it's 1946 again.
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Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
The Champ is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, which I have listed below from an L-16 manual. The L-16 is a 85 or 90 hp Champ, but it's still not a Citabria.
That being said,....
Respectfully disagree on a minor point....I think there are two differences between a 7AC and an L-16. The L-16 actually has a manual, and that manual lists additional limitations. The L-16A was actually a 7BCM Champ, and the L-16B a 7CCM.
IIRC the only limitation on the 7AC's I've had over the years were placards on the instrument panel that said 'never exceed 129 mph at any time'. Have never seen a manual for a Champ. Our Citabria, OTOH has additional placards detailing the approved maneuvers.
...that said, I've been wrong before, so you ain't gettin' no cherry, and I'm always willing to learn
I agree completely with everything else you said, and second it.
Jim
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Yep, it's like the J-3 and lots of planes of that era - no manual, hence no "approved" or "prohibited" maneuvers. Anyone who's ever seen a flying farmer act has seen a stock J-3 do loops and rolls. You just don't see the Champ doing the flying farmer thing because it's just a little more porky than the J-3, doesn't have quite such a floaty wing, and has even doggier ailerons.
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
To even further hijack the thread.... only recall a 7AC in an airshow once. IIRC at Davenport, IA...early 70's....some upstart kid named Gene Soucy.
Jim
champ driver
Line Up and Wait
The Champ is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, which I have listed below from an L-16 manual. The L-16 is a 85 or 90 hp Champ, but it's still not a Citabria.
That being said,....
Respectfully disagree on a minor point....I think there are two differences between a 7AC and an L-16. The L-16 actually has a manual, and that manual lists additional limitations. The L-16A was actually a 7BCM Champ, and the L-16B a 7CCM.
IIRC the only limitation on the 7AC's I've had over the years were placards on the instrument panel that said 'never exceed 129 mph at any time'. Have never seen a manual for a Champ. Our Citabria, OTOH has additional placards detailing the approved maneuvers.
...that said, I've been wrong before, so you ain't gettin' no cherry, and I'm always willing to learn
I agree completely with everything else you said, and second it.
Jim
Yes Jim, I agree, the Champ, meaning a 7AC is different from an L-16A or L-16B, but, they can all be considered Champs in the general context. The L-16's HP is different and they have some minor structural differences too, and like you said, there has never been an aircraft manual published for the 7AC.
I guess I just used the generic term "Champ" and should have used 7AC instead.
Smutny
Pre-Flight
Champ vs. Extra
Ya know, it's not when everything goes right. It's when everything goes wrong that you'll be glad you're in an airplane stressed for +/-10G's.
Since it's a rental, and they have the Extra on the line, I expect they don't approve of acro in the Champ. It's their sandbox, so respect their rules.
You don't want your friends to drive your car in a demolition derby...
Ya know, it's not when everything goes right. It's when everything goes wrong that you'll be glad you're in an airplane stressed for +/-10G's.
Since it's a rental, and they have the Extra on the line, I expect they don't approve of acro in the Champ. It's their sandbox, so respect their rules.
You don't want your friends to drive your car in a demolition derby...
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
Again, we agree. I suspect that when the changes were made to the airframe (engine swap, diagonal bracing between station 1 and 2, and large dorsal fin, from memory) for the L-birds, they did some additional structural analysis that said, "If you do that, it will hurt"...thus the aerobatics limitations. Interestingly enough, and you probaby know, the 7AC all the way thru the 7KCAB (150 hp with inverted systems) all share type cert A-759.
...and with that, I've probably gone from trivial to tedious!
Jim
Again, we agree. I suspect that when the changes were made to the airframe (engine swap, diagonal bracing between station 1 and 2, and large dorsal fin, from memory) for the L-birds, they did some additional structural analysis that said, "If you do that, it will hurt"...thus the aerobatics limitations. Interestingly enough, and you probaby know, the 7AC all the way thru the 7KCAB (150 hp with inverted systems) all share type cert A-759.
...and with that, I've probably gone from trivial to tedious!
Jim
Great info.... POA is full of knowledge...
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
Great info.... POA is full of knowledge...
Thanks, Ben....now if I could just remember what I had for breakfast
Jim