Advise prior to altitude change:

[Palmpilot]

Class E is an area where "Air Traffic Control" is exercised. It is exercised over pilots on IFR clearances.

In areas where "Air Traffic Control" is exercised over VFR pilots, the VFR pilot, must, under regulation be in communication with ATC.

There is a difference between an "Advisory service" and "Air Traffic Control".

My view is that when a controller gives an instruction that does not comply with the FAA's orders to controllers, that still constitutes air traffic control being exercised.

I'm not saying that my view is in any way definitive; I'm just explaining why, in my own flying, I choose to take 91.123(b) literally.

If the FAA doesn't want VFR pilots to obey ATC instructions in class E, then they really need to clarify the reg, IMO

 

[dell30rb]

I've seen it happen, and it's scary, not entertaining. Like climbing through a deck IFR passing 7000 feet still solid in the goo and they tell me I'm overtaking "VFR traffic 12 o'clock, three miles, same direction, level 7500 with me." Then I pop out the tops at 7300, and there he is, skimming along the tops, just in front of me.

Yikes. On my first ever IFR flight getting into solid IMC, the controller called out traffic when I was in the clouds. Embrarer, opposite direction, descending... spooky

 

[Jaybird180]

Gentelmen, can we please keep the discussion civil??? Yes Ronachamp I'm referring to you.

If you have something of value to contribute, please share. Keep the personal attacks to a minimum as they are an unecessary distraction.

Okay (ding, ding)
/game on

 

[Palmpilot]

Who said you need to know the contents of the controllers manual?

A lot of discussion in this and previous threads on this topic has centered on what the controllers' manual has to say on the subject.

What battles?

When you wrote "The big problem is your taking instructions from an incompetent air traffic controller," it sounded like you thought I was helping to perpetuate controller 'incompetence' by taking instructions from them, which implies that I ought to refuse such instructions in an effort to set them straight.

There are various levels of competence in any profession. I would think pilots would want to know the boundaries of ATC authority, so that they can make rational decisions.

While I find discussions of the FAA's orders to controllers interesting and informative, for me as a pilot, what I need to know about the limits of ATC authority is primarily contained in 14 CFR Part 91, especially 91.3 and 91.123.

 

[vintage cessna]

A lot of discussion in this and previous threads on this topic has centered on what the controllers' manual has to say on the subject.



When you wrote "The big problem is your taking instructions from an incompetent air traffic controller," it sounded like you thought I was helping to perpetuate controller 'incompetence' by taking instructions from them, which implies that I ought to refuse such instructions in an effort to set them straight.



While I find discussions of the FAA's orders to controllers interesting and informative, for me as a pilot, what I need to know about the limits of ATC authority is primarily contained in 14 CFR Part 91, especially 91.3 and 91.123.

I did not mean to imply that you would be perpetuating controller incompetence, rather, perhaps you may want to think twice if you want to continue to accept instructions from such a person.

You can glean what you need to know from the regs. Simply put, if you are required by regulation to talk to ATC, do what they say, unless you have a very good reason not to.

The FAA, based on the FAR's, has made quite clear to controllers the lack of control ATC has over VFR pilots in class E.

 

[Oldman]

The FAA, based on the FAR's, has made quite clear to controllers the lack of control ATC has over VFR pilots in class E.

A couple of years ago I was flying south of the Bradley Class C airspace, clearly in Class E and on VFR flight following. An airliner was essentially crossing my path on his approach. The controller instructed me to fly a heading 20 degrees to my right. If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, it would have been perfectly fine for me to say "..um, sorry Bradley Approach, but I'd rather not."

I'm uncomfortable with that thought.

- jkw

 

[Jaybird180]

A couple of years ago I was flying south of the Bradley Class C airspace, clearly in Class E and on VFR flight following. An airliner was essentially crossing my path on his approach. The controller instructed me to fly a heading 20 degrees to my right. If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, it would have been perfectly fine for me to say "..um, sorry Bradley Approach, but I'd rather not."

I'm uncomfortable with that thought.

- jkw

 

[vintage cessna]

A couple of years ago I was flying south of the Bradley Class C airspace, clearly in Class E and on VFR flight following. An airliner was essentially crossing my path on his approach. The controller instructed me to fly a heading 20 degrees to my right. If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, it would have been perfectly fine for me to say "..um, sorry Bradley Approach, but I'd rather not."

I'm uncomfortable with that thought.

- jkw

The way this situation should unfold is thus: Controller calls traffic, suggests a heading. The controller also has the option to make a move with the airliner. You take the suggested headed or decide not to. Perhaps that heading would put you in a cloud or put you in dangerous proximity to other VFR traffic the controller is not aware of.

There are controllers who just don't follow the book, or think they know better than the book. The controller rule book didn't just appear out of thin air, but has evolved through sometimes painful experiences. Controllers who think they know better than the book are dangerous.

 

[roncachamp]

Gentelmen, can we please keep the discussion civil??? Yes Ronachamp I'm referring to you.

If you have something of value to contribute, please share. Keep the personal attacks to a minimum as they are an unecessary distraction.

Okay (ding, ding)
/game on

I've posted nothing that could reasonably be described as a personal attack.

 

[roncachamp]

A couple of years ago I was flying south of the Bradley Class C airspace, clearly in Class E and on VFR flight following. An airliner was essentially crossing my path on his approach. The controller instructed me to fly a heading 20 degrees to my right. If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, it would have been perfectly fine for me to say "..um, sorry Bradley Approach, but I'd rather not."

How far from KBDL were you?

 

[roncachamp]

The way this situation should unfold is thus: Controller calls traffic, suggests a heading. The controller also has the option to make a move with the airliner. You take the suggested headed or decide not to. Perhaps that heading would put you in a cloud or put you in dangerous proximity to other VFR traffic the controller is not aware of.

There are controllers who just don't follow the book, or think they know better than the book. The controller rule book didn't just appear out of thin air, but has evolved through sometimes painful experiences. Controllers who think they know better than the book are dangerous.

Move an airliner in airspace where ATC has no responsibility for separation between VFR and IFR traffic? That's not following the book either.

 

[vintage cessna]

Move an airliner in airspace where ATC has no responsibility for separation between VFR and IFR traffic? That's not following the book either.

Correct. Make a move, meaning a controler move, call the traffic to the airliner and if the airline pilot is executing a descent clearance change the clearance to a pilots discretion descent until the pilot has the traffic in sight.

 

[Oldman]

How far from KBDL were you?

Memory fades. I imagine I was just northeast of the HFD VOR, which would have been one of my waypoints on that flight.

- jkw

 

[roncachamp]

Memory fades. I imagine I was just northeast of the HFD VOR, which would have been one of my waypoints on that flight.

It appears you were a participating aircraft in the Outer Area associated with the KBDL Class C airspace.