ADSB, FlightAware, Privacy...

I'm trying to give up on this thread, but the discussion is missing or at least misconstruing the main reason for wishing to retain privacy. It is not out of fear that evildoers will stalk me, rob me, do unspeakable things to my chickens, or anything like that. As I stated originally, it is simply a personal PREFERENCE to exercise the right to privacy. I don't like Google publishing pictures of my house, so I've asked them to blur it out. If 7.8 billion people want to see my house, they can walk by my house on my country road out in the sticks and see it. Otherwise, it's my house on my property. If I want to publish it for the world to see, I will. If the world wants to see it, come on over so I can see you too. We have a right to privacy. We have a right to freedom from unwarranted government surveillance. That's all. It's not a matter of avoiding evildoers and ne'er-do-wells. Just a matter of liking privacy.

And.. re/ some other assertions... I do NOT have a Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, vblog, or any other social media account or web presence, although I may be listed on our local musician's union's website. I participate in this forum and only this forum on a regular basis. There are two other enthusiast forums to which I occasionally contribute. That is the extent of my online social activity. I got my first smartphone, kicking and screaming, less than a year ago. I do not have it associated with a Google account, sideload the few apps I have on it, and use only privacy-conscious apps whenever possible. NO Google anything other than Android, and that's not linked to any account. It was tough to set it up that way, but it's possible. There's another thread here where I detailed the process a while back. Again, it's not out of fear that someone will harm me. I just don't like being a product or having my life used without my permission. Whether or not someone is motivated to do me harm because my flight activity is visible to the world is not part of the picture.
 
Salty said:
Many fbos use FlightAware to plan for arrivals they would be otherwise unaware of.
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Sounds stupid. Flight crew doesn’t tell them they’re coming, that’s on them.

How did we EVER possibly schedule things prior to FlightAware?! LOL. Dumb.

A pencil and a watch apparently is outdated. Ha.
 
denverpilot said:
None of those are legitimate purposes that need an anonymous way to watch or not to be identified as listeners.

Bad information protection behavior because “someone else will do it” also isn’t a legitimate excuse for FA.
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Can someone set up a site called "CarAware" and encourage people to set up IP security cameras with plate reader software, then make it available on the Internet? Or folks that make their Ring (et al) video available. Or any other of a number of Internet-enabled applications. They all are, as "they" say, just repurposing and presenting public data. You and I both know that the Communications Act has some provisions for "privacy of radio communications" that are, for various reasons moot or ignored. FA fits into the same category as Broadcastify and similar systems. The Europeans have done better, but they can't stop it completely either.

The concept of privacy has, unfortunately, changed - and not for the better. There is no enumerated right in the Constitution with respect to privacy. I suspect that the founding fathers would have included same if they could see what we have now. And the Feds (and states) are loathe to try and impose same, for a variety of reasons.
 
Racerx said:
I've never really understood the privacy concerns regarding ADSB. Anyone can see your tail number on the ramp and look up the tail number on the FAA site along with all your info. Heck you can search by make, model, and state without a tail number.
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And that's also a problem. You can't do that with cars, state motor vehicle departments are more enlightened about privacy. Even police have restrictions on their ability to run someone's license number. The FAA needs to catch up, and make privacy the default.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
And did you find that address on the FAA website or via any flight tracking service?
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I didn't know that was Ford's plane when I started looking. What was in the FAA registry allowed me to go down the rabbit hole and find everything via other public sources.

I'm not sure what that proves, other than "privacy is dead."
 
denverpilot said:
Sounds stupid. Flight crew doesn’t tell them they’re coming, that’s on them.
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Flight crews usually will, part 91 non-professionals generally won't. The non-pros will just show up most of the time. Used to happen all the time when I worked the ramp in Atlantic City. It was always handy when we could check the screen and see there were 4 inbound pistons and 6 inbound jets so we could plan how many guys to hold back on the GA ramp vs sending them down to help the guys working the airline ramp.
 
Racerx said:
Who would have your N number and how would they acquire it? If they have a radio they can hear who's in the pattern and Google or go to the FAA site to find the owner. If someone sees you on the ramp...same thing. If someone wants to do a basic search for a plane type in any state...FAA site.
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You're not telling us anything we don't already know. I had concerns before ADSB came along. Strange that I can't Google an auto license plate and get the driver's information but it can happen with an aircraft N number ...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I didn't know that was Ford's plane when I started looking. What was in the FAA registry allowed me to go down the rabbit hole and find everything via other public sources.

I'm not sure what that proves, other than "privacy is dead."
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But you didn't use flightaware or any other ads-b data. I think that's the point. If you look at "source" on the flightaware registration it is the FAA. If the FAA wants to make registration private, the ads-b data is far less intrusive. No? Sure you can still see flight paths and tail number, but it means little with no registration info.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Or I can just take a hammer and break your window to get myself in your house way quicker with way less effort. Path of least resistance and all that.
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There are protections on my home that are to remain unknown to anyone but myself. I would not advise anyone to assume I'm not home or even if they know I'm out that the place is not protected. My doors stay locked for your protection ...
 
MuseChaser said:
I'm trying to give up on this thread, but the discussion is missing or at least misconstruing the main reason for wishing to retain privacy. It is not out of fear that evildoers will stalk me, rob me, do unspeakable things to my chickens, or anything like that. As I stated originally, it is simply a personal PREFERENCE to exercise the right to privacy. I don't like Google publishing pictures of my house, so I've asked them to blur it out. If 7.8 billion people want to see my house, they can walk by my house on my country road out in the sticks and see it. Otherwise, it's my house on my property. If I want to publish it for the world to see, I will. If the world wants to see it, come on over so I can see you too. We have a right to privacy. We have a right to freedom from unwarranted government surveillance. That's all. It's not a matter of avoiding evildoers and ne'er-do-wells. Just a matter of liking privacy.
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I was speaking more in general terms and admittedly painting with a wide brush based on comments in other threads on this topic. I didn't intend to single you out specifically. I should have been clearer about that.
 
GaryM said:
And that's also a problem. You can't do that with cars, state motor vehicle departments are more enlightened about privacy. Even police have restrictions on their ability to run someone's license number. The FAA needs to catch up, and make privacy the default.
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What’s their motivation to “catch up”? Not like anybody penalizes them in any way for ignoring other Congressional privacy mandates.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Flight crews usually will, part 91 non-professionals generally won't. The non-pros will just show up most of the time. Used to happen all the time when I worked the ramp in Atlantic City. It was always handy when we could check the screen and see there were 4 inbound pistons and 6 inbound jets so we could plan how many guys to hold back on the GA ramp vs sending them down to help the guys working the airline ramp.
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“Handy” sounds like something you could both be properly identified and approved by the owners to receive, as well as pay for. No real business or social “need” for FAA nor FA to give it to you without owner approval.

Nobody cares if your ramp is a mess because some Part 91 doofus can’t make a phone call. Park him in the weeds. He won’t do it again.
 
GaryM said:
And that's also a problem. You can't do that with cars, state motor vehicle departments are more enlightened about privacy. Even police have restrictions on their ability to run someone's license number. The FAA needs to catch up, and make privacy the default.
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Easy enough to get around in many jurisdictions, and with data mining it becomes easy even without MVA access. Many police departments are using license plate readers attached to their cars that query information automatically - and that data is frequently given/sold/collected by an outside entity. In some cases it's collected by an outside entity and sold to the LEO.

CBP is now accessing and using that data nationwide.

https://www.eff.org/pages/automated-license-plate-readers-alpr

https://www.nextgov.com/analytics-d...ense-plate-reading-program-nationwide/166841/

Or, as I said, there is no privacy.
 
Daleandee said:
Nobody cares if your ramp is a mess because some Part 91 doofus can’t make a phone call. Park him in the weeds. He won’t do it again.
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He will do it again. Trust me, he will do it again.
 
I sent in a request via LADD.FAA.GOV for FAA source blocking on 9/28/20, motivated by this thread. As of today, 9/30/20, my info is blocked on FlightAware. That's very quick service, faster than the first Thursday of the month they advertise, and seems to serve the original poster's purpose.
Jon, with now-blocked N252MR
 
denverpilot said:
Sounds stupid. Flight crew doesn’t tell them they’re coming, that’s on them.

How did we EVER possibly schedule things prior to FlightAware?! LOL. Dumb.

A pencil and a watch apparently is outdated. Ha.
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Doesn’t make it illegitimate.
 
denverpilot said:
“Handy” sounds like something you could both be properly identified and approved by the owners to receive, as well as pay for. No real business or social “need” for FAA nor FA to give it to you without owner approval.

Nobody cares if your ramp is a mess because some Part 91 doofus can’t make a phone call. Park him in the weeds. He won’t do it again.
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Everyone that planned ahead cares.
 
Racerx said:
Who would have your N number and how would they acquire it?
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If you know my name, you can google it. If you google it, you'll find my N-number. If you are a stalker (or someone who wants to ransack my house while I'm gone) and use flightaware or that type service, you will be able to see where my airplane is. When you see it in flight 300 miles from my house, you're pretty much assured that I'm not home and your path to malfeasant activities will be much easier.

Likely? Not likely to happen to any of us. But will it happen to someone? I'd bet it will. I know criminals scan obits for funeral notices to identify target houses (they target them during the funeral). It is basically the same thing - criminals using public information to target people because they have specific knowledge of where the individual is or isn't.
 
Daleandee said: ↑
Nobody cares if your ramp is a mess because some Part 91 doofus can’t make a phone call. Park him in the weeds. He won’t do it again.
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Juliet Hotel said:
He will do it again. Trust me, he will do it again.
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The post says I made the statement above but that's not true ...
 
Daleandee said:
The post says I made the statement above but that's not true ...
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Boy that's weird. I hit the quote button on denverpilot's post. I have no idea why your username was assigned to the quote. I've never seen that happen before. :confused2::confused2::confused2::confused2:
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Boy that's weird. I hit the quote button on denverpilot's post. I have no idea why your username was assigned to the quote. I've never seen that happen before. :confused2::confused2::confused2::confused2:
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I didn't understand it either. No harm, no foul ...
 
I was thinking about this topic and its got me wondering if there is a potential business model here for someone. LLC's will hide you name on flight trackers and FAA searches. But its not hard to find the name and address of the LLC agent who would typically be the owner who is trying to remain anon. Its still possible to keep your identity private via an LLC but you're going to need another person and address to do it.

In the case of N28S owned by Harrison Ford, the LLC that his Beaver is registered to show the name of and business address of someone who works as a financial consultant. Obviously not everyone is going have a working relationship with a financial consultant who would be willing to manage your LLC for you and forward anything important that would be sent to you via that LLC address. But what if there were a company that existed to do just that and could make the process simple and easy.

Some sort of web based company that will allow you to register your aircraft to their name and address or create a new LLC with a name of your choosing registered to the company address for the purposes of registering your aircraft. Obviously I doubt MuseChaser would likely be a customer as it would require additional effort and expense and he would rather attack the problem via lobbying for policy change at the FAA level and well he should. But clearly some people feel pretty strongly about the issue. I have to wonder if there are enough of them who would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollar initial setup fee and may $50 or so per year to provide all the legwork to keep your identity private in relation to your aircraft.

Seems like it wouldn't take much time and effort once you were setup for it and could end up being a nice little side business for someone if there was enough interest. :dunno:
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I was thinking about this topic and its got me wondering if there is a potential business model here for someone. LLC's will hide you name on flight trackers and FAA searches. But its not hard to find the name and address of the LLC agent who would typically be the owner who is trying to remain anon. Its still possible to keep your identity private via an LLC but you're going to need another person and address to do it.
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Most law offices will function as your registered agent free of charge.

In the case of N28S owned by Harrison Ford, the LLC that his Beaver is registered to show the name of and business address of someone who works as a financial consultant. Obviously not everyone is going have a working relationship with a financial consultant who would be willing to manage your LLC for you and forward anything important that would be sent to you via that LLC address. But what if there were a company that existed to do just that and could make the process simple and easy.
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There's a boatload of these, especially in Delaware, that will allow you to register a company there and forward your mail to your actual physical location.

Some sort of web based company that will allow you to register your aircraft to their name and address or create a new LLC with a name of your choosing registered to the company address for the purposes of registering your aircraft. Obviously I doubt MuseChaser would likely be a customer as it would require additional effort and expense and he would rather attack the problem via lobbying for policy change at the FAA level and well he should. But clearly some people feel pretty strongly about the issue. I have to wonder if there are enough of them who would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollar initial setup fee and may $50 or so per year to provide all the legwork to keep your identity private in relation to your aircraft.
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And there are plenty of these as well, this is how foreign entities can own N-registered aircraft.

Seems like it wouldn't take much time and effort once you were setup for it and could end up being a nice little side business for someone if there was enough interest. :dunno:
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Nothing new under the sun, I guess!
 
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