ADS-B & Existing WAAS GPS

[txflyer]

+1 cheemsaf

I have an existing 430W and right now if the deadline was very soon with the options we have I would just upgrade to an ES transponder and get my in feed through a portable.

That's the cheapest route we have to date to be compliant. Not that I'm cheap, or that pilot's are cheap ...

 

[UngaWunga]

+1 cheemsaf

I have an existing 430W and right now if the deadline was very soon with the options we have I would just upgrade to an ES transponder and get my in feed through a portable.

That's the cheapest route we have to date to be compliant. Not that I'm cheap, or that pilot's are cheap ...

Cheap or not, the display on a tablet is pretty damn good, and bigger than most certified GPS displays. Plus, how else are you going to get your in flight movies?

 

[John Collins]

Flyhound. To get the ADS-B "in" on Garmin is more than just upgrading your 327 to a 330ES and programming it correctly. That just gets you "out compliant". If you want traffic and weather on your 430 you'll need a GDL-88 that interacts with your 330ES and 430. It'll get the reply from the ground station and display that reply on your 430. Or you can do what I think most are doing and just upgrade only the transponder (with an already WAAS GPS) and be ADS-B out compliant. And then use the in portion on a portable such as an iPad with foreflight and Stratus or iPad with a Garmin GDL-39 and Garminpilot. I think after you see the price tag on the GDL-88, it'll at least make you think twice. It did for me and I went with foreflight & stratus. I'd recommend doing some research on source pages and documents for truth data. Also, their is a list (and I can't find it right now) of which transponders work with which GPSs. But a question you should ask yourself: when Garmin or King pushes a new firmware or software update to their product in the distant future & you or a shop install it, will it still work with another brand?

If I were adding the GDL88 to the GNS430W, I would not change out a perfectly modern transponder such as the GTX327 for a GTX330. Installing a mode S transponder gains nothing and blocks the Anonymous feature of the GDL88. For most, the GDL88 obtains compliance, will work with the panel mount equipment, and will enable the same capabilities in a portable. If one adds a FlightStream 210, then an iPad can be used to link to both the weather and traffic. The FS210 has a built in AHRS and communicates with the iPad thru Bluetooth. That provides for a fully integrated panel and portable solution without the need for portable receivers or wires and antennas.

The GNS430W is industrial strength, doesn't overheat in the sun, doesn't need rechargeable batteries, is sun light readable, ties in with the ship's audio, doesn't get turned off if you set it down, has a fully adequate screen for traffic, and has a very usable screen for weather, particularly if you turn off the data fields. If you have never seen weather or traffic displayed on the GNS430W, I suggest you look at it first before discounting it as too small.





If you decide to got the route of using a KT74 or Trig, I would not worry about Garmin making a change to their software. The main software GNS430W is not relevant to the KT74 or Trig TT31 Peregrine STC's, only the GPS Receiver software is relevant. If Garmin does change this, it will be expensive in terms of testing or modifying all of their products that attach to
the GNS430W. Even if they do change it, if it is not an AD, then one would not need to have this software updated and you could continue to run with the STC approved version. And finally, all that would be involved would be another round of testing by the manufacturers or their representative to obtain an STC upgrade. IOW, I would not worry about this possibility.

 

[cheemsaf]

If I were adding the GDL88 to the GNS430W, I would not change out a perfectly modern transponder such as the GTX327 for a GTX330.

Yup, like I said. OP, look at the source docs. A 327 won't get you 'out' compliant Flyhound. Here's a place to start if you're staying with Garmin:

http://www.garmin.com/us/intheair/ads-b/seven-questions/

+1 UngaWunga on displays and capabilities of portables

 

[John Collins]

Yup, like I said. OP, look at the source docs. A 327 won't get you 'out' compliant Flyhound. Here's a place to start if you're staying with Garmin:

http://www.garmin.com/us/intheair/ads-b/seven-questions/

+1 UngaWunga on displays and capabilities of portables

No, but the GDL88 will and make good use of the GTX327.

 

[182driver]

I am replacing my KT-76A with a Garmin GTX 330ES the week of June 8. The quote for the unit and install is $3800 for everything, including software upgrades for the 530W if needed and new coax to the antenna if needed. The $200 coupon from Garmin gets it to $3600.
A GDL-88 would be $5500. That's too much for me, since I like my Foreflight/Stratus and since the GDL-88 would still require my KT-76A to be operational - having 2 boxes is just wasted space, wasted watts, and twice the chance of a failure.
Going with a KT-74 would have been $3000 installed, including the airspeed switch and new coax if needed.

I'm going with the Garmin for mostly stupid reasons: less chance of any communications issues with the 530W since they are both Garmin, more chance of some upgrade deal for the transponder or GPS in the distant future with all Garmin stuff, it will look better in the panel with the 530W and SL30, more of them have been made and field tested, less complexity than an airspeed switch. The extra $600 probably isn't worth it, but it isn't all that much in airplane terms.

The plane should be down more than 1 day but less than 2.
I emailed the dealer (Virginia Aviation at KLYH) and had he quote within hours. Once I ordered, it took the unit 7 days to get here and I wait 2 weeks for my turn at the shop. I think I could have gotten into the shop sooner, but I'm in no rush and more interested in keeping my current schedule intact.

 

[bkspero]

I am replacing my KT-76A with a Garmin GTX 330ES the week of June 8. The quote for the unit and install is $3800 for everything, including software upgrades for the 530W if needed and new coax to the antenna if needed. The $200 coupon from Garmin gets it to $3600.
A GDL-88 would be $5500. That's too much for me, since I like my Foreflight/Stratus and since the GDL-88 would still require my KT-76A to be operational - having 2 boxes is just wasted space, wasted watts, and twice the chance of a failure.
Going with a KT-74 would have been $3000 installed, including the airspeed switch and new coax if needed.

I'm going with the Garmin for mostly stupid reasons: less chance of any communications issues with the 530W since they are both Garmin, more chance of some upgrade deal for the transponder or GPS in the distant future with all Garmin stuff, it will look better in the panel with the 530W and SL30, more of them have been made and field tested, less complexity than an airspeed switch. The extra $600 probably isn't worth it, but it isn't all that much in airplane terms.

The plane should be down more than 1 day but less than 2.
I emailed the dealer (Virginia Aviation at KLYH) and had he quote within hours. Once I ordered, it took the unit 7 days to get here and I wait 2 weeks for my turn at the shop. I think I could have gotten into the shop sooner, but I'm in no rush and more interested in keeping my current schedule intact.

I'm surprised by the small price difference between the 330es and KT-74. The 330es is about $1050 more expensive on ACS. In fact, your installed cost for the 330es is only $250 more than the 330es cost on ACS. Considering that it also includes installation of new coax, the upgrading the 530w firmware, it's as if the shop isn't charging anything for installation, configuration, and paperwork. Sounds like a great deal.

 

[Comanche flyer]

I've been looking at the prices for adding ADS-B out to my plane and all of the units I've found have their own WAAS compliant GPS built in. I already have a WAAS GPS (Garmin 430) with an RS 232 port. Have any of you found a transmitter that will work with the position signal from an existing WAAS GPS for a lower price? I don't need to buy hardware with a TSO'd ADS-B in solution because the portable ADS-B in unit I'm currently using (Dual XGPS 170) works just fine. I'm looking for the lowest cost ADS-B out I can get. What I've found so far seems to have hardware I don't need with the attendant cost of another antenna and more complicated installation costs.

Get a 330es.
And As long as the Garmin ES xponder has either a G3X or a GNS/GTN series GPS feeding it data, you will be able to receive TIS-B data. On top of your a ADS-b portable
I just paid 4900 for the 330es installed

 

[John Collins]

Get a 330es.
And As long as the Garmin ES xponder has either a G3X or a GNS/GTN series GPS feeding it data, you will be able to receive TIS-B data. On top of your a ADS-b portable
I just paid 4900 for the 330es installed

A GTX330ES doesn't receive any TISB data. You need a separate receiver for that, probably a portable. I had a GDL88 installed for $4500 and it satisfies the 2020 rule and receives weather and traffic which is displayed on my GNS530W.

 

[Comanche flyer]

I don't have a gdl
And I get TISB data If tracon is transmitting iirc you get TISB bounced from tracon

 

[gacoon]

Prices to swap out a Garmin 327 for a 330 es are being quoted at around 6 K with the trade in 327.

Those prices are outrageous. I pulled a King KT76a, sold it for $200 and bought a brand new 330es and had it hooked to my 430w for $4200. Atlantic at KDVT a year ago. If you,ve got an old transponder smartest move is to replace it if you have an approved position source to hook up to. Transponders arent going away for a long time. In my opinion ADSB in is best accomplished with one on of the many portable recievers. I Use GDL 39 and Ipad.

 

[John Collins]

I don't have a gdl
And I get TISB data If tracon is transmitting iirc you get TISB bounced from tracon

There is no way your GTX330ES can receive TISB. It is broadcast on 1090 MHz and the GTX330ES does not have a receiver for that frequency. I expect you are taking advantage of the non ADS-B product called TIS (AKA TIS-A). It is not an ADSB product, is transmitted just to your aircraft's mode S transponder on 1030 MHz and shows traffic within a 50 to 60 NM radius of an ASR9 radar site. It is also slowly going away and has much less coverage than TISB.

Here are the coverage areas still in effect with TIS.

 

[Comanche flyer]

So still getting trafic with out the gdl on the 650
got explained to me in a different way by avionics guy when wen got the 330es in the meridian. I don't flight the fatso as much, As I do flight the Comanche almost every day being my private plane vs a investment.
In the Comanche I got wired for the gdl but I dint get it, I still have 2 iPads and 2 stratus two boxes that need to go death before I get the gdl88, now with tray and wires ready is just a buy expense.
In the meridian we have the gdl88 installed few months ago, the two 430w are soon to be gone.

 

[182driver]

A KT-74 or a GTX 330ES will receive TIS-B traffic updates but not weather. I'm using a Stratus 2 and Foreflight on an iPad Air for weather. Some people prefer a panel mount solution, but I like the iPad.

 

[John Collins]

A KT-74 or a GTX 330ES will receive TIS-B traffic updates but not weather. I'm using a Stratus 2 and Foreflight on an iPad Air for weather. Some people prefer a panel mount solution, but I like the iPad.

A KT-74 or a GTX330ES does not receive any ADS-B traffic, this is physically impossible as it does not have a receiver that receives on 1090 MHz or 978 MHz. It can however become a client of the ADS-B ground station and trigger TISB traffic broadcasts around its positiona if it is properly configured. The Stratus with ForeFlight can receive ADS-B traffic

 

[dans2992]

So still getting trafic with out the gdl on the 650

got explained to me in a different way by avionics guy when wen got the 330es in the meridian. I don't flight the fatso as much, As I do flight the Comanche almost every day being my private plane vs a investment.

In the Comanche I got wired for the gdl but I dint get it, I still have 2 iPads and 2 stratus two boxes that need to go death before I get the gdl88, now with tray and wires ready is just a buy expense.

In the meridian we have the gdl88 installed few months ago, the two 430w are soon to be gone.

Sorry for the hijack, but you bought a Meridian as an investment? How does that work?

 

[UngaWunga]

A KT-74 or a GTX330ES does not receive any ADS-B traffic, this is physically impossible as it does not have a receiver that receives on 1090 MHz or 978 MHz. It can however become a client of the ADS-B ground station and trigger TISB traffic broadcasts around its positiona if it is properly configured. The Stratus with ForeFlight can receive ADS-B traffic

Instead of starting yet another ADSb thread, I thought I'd hijack this one...
So, say you have a GPS and 330ES installed for ADSb out certification. Why would anyone install a GDL-88 instead of a GDL-39R? What does the extra $2700 get you, if you want the ADSb input displayed on a tablet?

I've read that the GDL-88 will transmit on 978 if you have the 330ES that handles 1090. Why does this matter? Is this the difference between plane-to-plane ADSb vs plane-to-ground station-to-plane?

 

[John Collins]

Instead of starting yet another ADSb thread, I thought I'd hijack this one...
So, say you have a GPS and 330ES installed for ADSb out certification. Why would anyone install a GDL-88 instead of a GDL-39R? What does the extra $2700 get you, if you want the ADSb input displayed on a tablet?

I've read that the GDL-88 will transmit on 978 if you have the 330ES that handles 1090. Why does this matter? Is this the difference between plane-to-plane ADSb vs plane-to-ground station-to-plane?

ADS-B In on the panel equipment. Audio alerts based on TSO criteria. Industrial strength traffic. Sunlight readable screens. No overheating iPad shutting down, don't have to mount the iPad, internal antennas that don't have a clear view of the ground stations. Don't have to worry about power. I don't think an iPad is suitable for dependable traffic. I have both, but I only depend on the GDL88 for traffic. My iPad is used for weather, information, and charts and stays closed most of the flight, but is there when I need it for what it does best.

I would not recommend a transponder solution using a portable for traffic. In most cases, when flight above 18000 is not needed, the GDL88 is a better way to go. It may be more expensive if you already own a GTX330 with a compatible GPS and simply need an upgrade for compliance, but I want more than compliance. Compliance satisfies the FAA, but not me. The GDL88 provides compliance and something for me. I was an early adopter for the traffic, not compliance.

 

[182driver]

I'm sure you know what you are talking about John.
A GTX 330ES will somehow provide traffic alerts on a Garmin 530W. I thought those traffic alerts had something to do with TIS-B but I agree that the transponder is not an ADS-B in receiver. So can you explain what the traffic alerts are and how they work? Triggering a ground station is one thing, but there would still have to be a receiver somewhere.

 

[dans2992]

You're talking about TIS, often called (incorrectly) TIS-A. Completely separate traffic service than ADS-B.

 

[Clark1961]

I'm sure you know what you are talking about John.
A GTX 330ES will somehow provide traffic alerts on a Garmin 530W. I thought those traffic alerts had something to do with TIS-B but I agree that the transponder is not an ADS-B in receiver. So can you explain what the traffic alerts are and how they work? Triggering a ground station is one thing, but there would still have to be a receiver somewhere.

The 330 receives TIS (Traffic Information System surprisingly enough) broadcasts in particular areas which have appropriate radar systems. That is the only "in" part of the datalink for Mode S transponders. John has the details on frequencies and how the system works.

I have a 330ES and the TIS system is reasonably good in displaying traffic info on the 430W. It will throw ghost traffic and be generally annoying every now and then but it is a good comparison to the TIS-B traffic from the Stratus.

 

[182driver]

Got it, I think. The "TIS-A" is digital data riding on the radar beam from the ground based radar. Obviously, a transponder has a receiver to pick up the radar. And the FAA is phasing out the radars that can provide this traffic information, apparently. Thanks.

 

[ahkahn]

ADS-B In on the panel equipment. Audio alerts based on TSO criteria. Industrial strength traffic. Sunlight readable screens. No overheating iPad shutting down, don't have to mount the iPad, internal antennas that don't have a clear view of the ground stations. Don't have to worry about power. I don't think an iPad is suitable for dependable traffic. I have both, but I only depend on the GDL88 for traffic. My iPad is used for weather, information, and charts and stays closed most of the flight, but is there when I need it for what it does best.

I would not recommend a transponder solution using a portable for traffic. In most cases, when flight above 18000 is not needed, the GDL88 is a better way to go. It may be more expensive if you already own a GTX330 with a compatible GPS and simply need an upgrade for compliance, but I want more than compliance. Compliance satisfies the FAA, but not me. The GDL88 provides compliance and something for me. I was an early adopter for the traffic, not compliance.

John, I am always impressed with your excellent knowledge on topics. My plane is in the shop right now with the a GTX-330 being upgraded to ES. Let me explain my reasoning for declining the GDL-88.

I have an Aspen EFD1000 and a GNS-430W, along with being an avid ForeFlight/Stratus user. I am highly irritated about the avionic compatibility wars of late. I have been looking for a solution to display ADS-B traffic and weather on the 430W, Aspen, and the iPad. Obviously the Stratus has the iPad covered, but if I can replace the Stratus, all the bonus. Options?
- The GDL-88 will only do the 430W and Garmin Pilot, should I wish to switch. I don't. It is not compatible with the Aspen.
- The FreeFlight RANGR looked very promising as compatible with everything, however deeper digging shows that it requires a "$2000 unlock fee" for the Aspen unit, in addition to the cost of the RANGR unit itself plus labor. Ridiculous.
- Aspen ADS-B units are only compatible with Aspen PFD/MFD units. No 430W. No ForeFlight.

Until everyone can decide to play happy, or I decide to replace avionics with the ones that play happy, I will use portable in and keep the Mode S TIS on my 430W.

I think if the FAA wants to actually do some good they should mandate an avionics compatibility standard (after all, it is just software!) so that all of these devices can speak to one another.

Just another perspective for you...

 

[txflyer]

The propietary crap makes this whole scene one big buggery.

I've read the entire thread and am more confused than ever.

There is no 'one size fits all' and it appears to have been engineered that way in the most blatant and unforgiving way. A capitalistic orgy.

 

[gacoon]

I'm sure you know what you are talking about John.
A GTX 330ES will somehow provide traffic alerts on a Garmin 530W. I thought those traffic alerts had something to do with TIS-B but I agree that the transponder is not an ADS-B in receiver. So can you explain what the traffic alerts are and how they work? Triggering a ground station is one thing, but there would still have to be a receiver somewhere.

The traffic you,re getting is the older TIS traffic and is only broadcast around some terminal areas, usually class B or C areas. You will notice that if you fly far enough away from the terminal area you will get a Traffic Not Available annunciation. This TIS traffic is considered legacy and sometime in the future will be phased out. TIS-B traffic is from ADSB stations and requires an ADSB reciever of some sort to recieve it. A 330es will recieve TIS traffic, but not TIS-B traffic.

 

[John Collins]

John, I am always impressed with your excellent knowledge on topics. My plane is in the shop right now with the a GTX-330 being upgraded to ES. Let me explain my reasoning for declining the GDL-88.

I have an Aspen EFD1000 and a GNS-430W, along with being an avid ForeFlight/Stratus user. I am highly irritated about the avionic compatibility wars of late. I have been looking for a solution to display ADS-B traffic and weather on the 430W, Aspen, and the iPad. Obviously the Stratus has the iPad covered, but if I can replace the Stratus, all the bonus. Options?
- The GDL-88 will only do the 430W and Garmin Pilot, should I wish to switch. I don't. It is not compatible with the Aspen.
- The FreeFlight RANGR looked very promising as compatible with everything, however deeper digging shows that it requires a "$2000 unlock fee" for the Aspen unit, in addition to the cost of the RANGR unit itself plus labor. Ridiculous.
- Aspen ADS-B units are only compatible with Aspen PFD/MFD units. No 430W. No ForeFlight.

Until everyone can decide to play happy, or I decide to replace avionics with the ones that play happy, I will use portable in and keep the Mode S TIS on my 430W.

I think if the FAA wants to actually do some good they should mandate an avionics compatibility standard (after all, it is just software!) so that all of these devices can speak to one another.

Just another perspective for you...

There is a fair amount of misinformation and missing information on ADS-B options. The Aspen ADS-B equipment is private labeling of the FreeFlight solution. Aspen, FreeFlight, L3, NavWorx, and Avidyne use what is called in the industry the Capstone interface for their ADS-B display interface. Capstone is the name of the ADS-B technology proving project in Alaska where it was field tested by the FAA. The original equipment was provided by Apollo which was bought from UPS by Garmin. It consisted of a GDL90 ADS-B transceiver and displayed on the MX20 and later the GMX200. The interface between the GDL90 and the MX20/GMX200 is called the Capstone interface and is public because it was paid for by the FAA. Any ADS-B Out device using this interface has the potential of inter-operating with a display of another manufacturer that supports this interface.

Garmin developed its own proprietary interface between the GDL88 and its displays which now includes the GNS430W/530W, GTN650/750, G500/G600 and soon the G1000 WAAS systems. So Garmin currently does not support the Capstone interface. But they have stated their intention to support the MX20 and GMX200 with the "Legacy GDL90" interface. This is simply another way of saying the GDL88 will support the Capstone interface. This is supposed to be available this year, probably late summer or early fall. At that point, there is no technical reason why the GDL88 would not interface to the Aspen and it is bound to happen. It might be via field approval or Aspen may add it to their STC, but I expect this to happen some time this year, all the Aspen owners that have Garmin GPS will have a means of supporting displaying ADS-B weather and traffic on both their GPS and the Aspen.

With respect to Stratus or any portable ADS-B receiver, all of its data comes from independent reception of ADS-B Air to Air and Ground to Air and does not interface to the ship's ADS-B Out equipment, so one could say it is compatible with every manufacturer's ADS-B Out. Appareo has announced a new 1090ES Transponder for 2016 that includes a WAAS position source and has a connector that shares the external antennas and power for a Stratus, but even in that case the data reception is internal to the attached Stratus as the transponder does not have an ADS-B receiver built into it.

 

[ahkahn]

There is a fair amount of misinformation and missing information on ADS-B options. The Aspen ADS-B equipment is private labeling of the FreeFlight solution. Aspen, FreeFlight, L3, NavWorx, and Avidyne use what is called in the industry the Capstone interface for their ADS-B display interface. Capstone is the name of the ADS-B technology proving project in Alaska where it was field tested by the FAA. The original equipment was provided by Apollo which was bought from UPS by Garmin. It consisted of a GDL90 ADS-B transceiver and displayed on the MX20 and later the GMX200. The interface between the GDL90 and the MX20/GMX200 is called the Capstone interface and is public because it was paid for by the FAA. Any ADS-B Out device using this interface has the potential of inter-operating with a display of another manufacturer that supports this interface.

Garmin developed its own proprietary interface between the GDL88 and its displays which now includes the GNS430W/530W, GTN650/750, G500/G600 and soon the G1000 WAAS systems. So Garmin currently does not support the Capstone interface. But they have stated their intention to support the MX20 and GMX200 with the "Legacy GDL90" interface. This is simply another way of saying the GDL88 will support the Capstone interface. This is supposed to be available this year, probably late summer or early fall. At that point, there is no technical reason why the GDL88 would not interface to the Aspen and it is bound to happen. It might be via field approval or Aspen may add it to their STC, but I expect this to happen some time this year, all the Aspen owners that have Garmin GPS will have a means of supporting displaying ADS-B weather and traffic on both their GPS and the Aspen.

With respect to Stratus or any portable ADS-B receiver, all of its data comes from independent reception of ADS-B Air to Air and Ground to Air and does not interface to the ship's ADS-B Out equipment, so one could say it is compatible with every manufacturer's ADS-B Out. Appareo has announced a new 1090ES Transponder for 2016 that includes a WAAS position source and has a connector that shares the external antennas and power for a Stratus, but even in that case the data reception is internal to the attached Stratus as the transponder does not have an ADS-B receiver built into it.

I was aware of some of this, but thank you for filling in the gaps. The biggest burn for me is the fact that Aspen has a deal with Freeflight (through the private label program) but neither company's unit will allow open interconnect with opposing devices. For example Aspen wants an "unlock fee" to interface with the Freeflight box, but if you buy an Aspen ADS-B box (same box/different label) you cannot interface it with a 430W.

My point is that people should refuse to buy these IN boxes until true interoperability is achieved. Advising against portable units is counter-productive and ultimately will force a lot of people to extra spend money on extra boxes that they may not even need in the future.

 

[JimNtexas]

The Freeflight Ranger does at least display traffic on the 430W, I'm not sure about weather.

Two days ago Foreflight was updated to connect to the Ranger's Wifi interface. I plan to fly it in a couple of days, I'll report back when I have some first hand verification.

 

[ahkahn]

The Freeflight Ranger does at least display traffic on the 430W, I'm not sure about weather.

Two days ago Foreflight was updated to connect to the Ranger's Wifi interface. I plan to fly it in a couple of days, I'll report back when I have some first hand verification.

I was ready to pull the trigger on a Freeflight RANGR because of the Wifi for ForeFlight and the 430W traffic display. BUT, when I was told that to get it to talk on the Aspen there would be a $2000 unlock fee, I scrapped the whole idea.

FWIW, I had a conversation today with the avionics shop manager working on my plane. We discussed all of the software unlock fees. He has expressed his dissatisfaction with them, as well, towards the manufacturers, considering most of them are a 30 second unlock and carry fees in the thousands of dollar range. He told me his favorite was unlocking synthetic vision in a... IIRC, Citation. He told me it was $25,000 for a 2 minute unlock sequence.

My feeling is that these companies make plenty of money off of their hardware, so adding some value add consideration only works to strengthen their brands. It would be like Apple charging extra to enable the camera on the iPhone. They are a hardware company... who happens to make software to enhance their hardware.

 

[Marauder]

There is a fair amount of misinformation and missing information on ADS-B options. The Aspen ADS-B equipment is private labeling of the FreeFlight solution. Aspen, FreeFlight, L3, NavWorx, and Avidyne use what is called in the industry the Capstone interface for their ADS-B display interface. Capstone is the name of the ADS-B technology proving project in Alaska where it was field tested by the FAA. The original equipment was provided by Apollo which was bought from UPS by Garmin. It consisted of a GDL90 ADS-B transceiver and displayed on the MX20 and later the GMX200. The interface between the GDL90 and the MX20/GMX200 is called the Capstone interface and is public because it was paid for by the FAA. Any ADS-B Out device using this interface has the potential of inter-operating with a display of another manufacturer that supports this interface.



Garmin developed its own proprietary interface between the GDL88 and its displays which now includes the GNS430W/530W, GTN650/750, G500/G600 and soon the G1000 WAAS systems. So Garmin currently does not support the Capstone interface. But they have stated their intention to support the MX20 and GMX200 with the "Legacy GDL90" interface. This is simply another way of saying the GDL88 will support the Capstone interface. This is supposed to be available this year, probably late summer or early fall. At that point, there is no technical reason why the GDL88 would not interface to the Aspen and it is bound to happen. It might be via field approval or Aspen may add it to their STC, but I expect this to happen some time this year, all the Aspen owners that have Garmin GPS will have a means of supporting displaying ADS-B weather and traffic on both their GPS and the Aspen.



With respect to Stratus or any portable ADS-B receiver, all of its data comes from independent reception of ADS-B Air to Air and Ground to Air and does not interface to the ship's ADS-B Out equipment, so one could say it is compatible with every manufacturer's ADS-B Out. Appareo has announced a new 1090ES Transponder for 2016 that includes a WAAS position source and has a connector that shares the external antennas and power for a Stratus, but even in that case the data reception is internal to the attached Stratus as the transponder does not have an ADS-B receiver built into it.

John - as always, thanks for the information. I really hopes this happens. Like ahkahn, I'm really irritated with the lack of integration. And because of this, I'm sitting on the sideline until this happens this integration happens. If it doesn't, then I will go the ES route with a non-Garmin transponder and stay with a portable in solution. No more feeding the gorilla.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalkp

 

[John Collins]

I understand the reluctance to pay for unlock features, but each company has to recover its investment in the software development, testing, certification, on going support and make a profit. The receiver only receives the data, it is the MFD or GPS that processes it and adds the human interface. The manufacturing costs are often nil on an incremental basis and usually are relatively low in the first instance. Engineering and programming are the real investment that must be made by the various vendors, SV is a perfect example. With the exception of Garmin, I question the profitability of most of the other vendors. These are low volume products.

 

[ahkahn]

I understand the reluctance to pay for unlock features, but each company has to recover its investment in the software development, testing, certification, on going support and make a profit. The receiver only receives the data, it is the MFD or GPS that processes it and adds the human interface. The manufacturing costs are often nil on an incremental basis and usually are relatively low in the first instance. Engineering and programming are the real investment that must be made by the various vendors, SV is a perfect example. With the exception of Garmin, I question the profitability of most of the other vendors. These are low volume products.

I can't say that I disagree with you, but that's still not a good justification in my opinion. And now we get into the economics debate. Every one of these manufacturers have a fixed development cost. I would contend that Aspen would sell twice as many units at 1/2 the price, they would come out way ahead. If you were to amortize the development costs of SV, for example, across twice as many units, it will be much more cost effective for both the company and the customers. That aside, Garmin will sell significantly more units than Aspen. Why, then, are the Garmin units and associated software significantly higher in price?

Aspen (hate to keep picking on them! They're decent people with a decent product), for example, developed the AOA, which could be unlocked for $2000. I don't see myself adding that to my Aspen. I know many others in the same boat. We survived thus far without AOA's. I would contend that for $500, I would strongly consider it, and many others would, as well. That sunk cost for Aspen is there. They could recoup much faster if the pricing were lower. The same holds true for SV. I plan to pay the $25 to ForeFlight for the SV add-on (once I spend the $800 to upgrade to a Stratus 2)... So now I've got an $800 solution that works as well as the $3000 Aspen solution... for the same thing. They need to realize who their competition is.

 

[dans2992]

A big part of the problem here is "certified" vs non-certified. Inane FAA certification rules make this stuff way more expensive than it should be.

Also, the certification does not add much. I've seen certified avionics crap out just as much as non-certified.

 

[wsuffa]

Certification is part of the problem, but the manufacturers have also learned from Apple that if you lock people into your ecosystem that you can get a higher price and sell more hardware because the buyer won't choose an Aspen if the Garmin is the best/only interface. And the know folks won't chance out the stack as overall cost represents barrier to change.

The only solution, in the long run, is a regulatory requirement for compatibility. That will drive prices higher initially due to certification requirements and is unlikely to happen due to political issues.

 

[ahkahn]

Certification is part of the problem, but the manufacturers have also learned from Apple that if you lock people into your ecosystem that you can get a higher price and sell more hardware because the buyer won't choose an Aspen if the Garmin is the best/only interface. And the know folks won't chance out the stack as overall cost represents barrier to change.

The only solution, in the long run, is a regulatory requirement for compatibility. That will drive prices higher initially due to certification requirements and is unlikely to happen due to political issues.

Valid points, but the difference is that Apple and Google are offering total circular value to the consumer to lock into their ecosystem. Meaning that once you buy the hardware, you get all of the software benefits and additions old and new. For example, when Apple developed iCloud, they automatically allowed all Apple ecosystem customers to access it. It also adds incentive for new people to buy into their ecosystem.

My point has been that if Aspen, Garmin, etc. would follow that same model they would increase their sales substantially. Why? Because now for $10k, not only are you buying a glass insert, but one that has an AOA, traffic, weather, SV, etc., and your existing customers (of which Aspen probably is in the 7000-10,000 range, if I were to guess) now become product evangelists even more so to recruit the next batch of customers. Pilots talk to pilots!

 

[ScottK]

I was at the AOPA event in Frederick this weekend and saw the FreeFlight booth. After some discussion, the rep told me that their Rangr FDL-978-XVR would work with my current setup (Garmin 327 and 530W). I'm not sure if this was for both in and out or just to be compliant. I'm curious if anyone else has tried this or found anything different.

 

[ahkahn]

I was at the AOPA event in Frederick this weekend and saw the FreeFlight booth. After some discussion, the rep told me that their Rangr FDL-978-XVR would work with my current setup (Garmin 327 and 530W). I'm not sure if this was for both in and out or just to be compliant. I'm curious if anyone else has tried this or found anything different.

FreeFlight makes a great unit. The transceiver would do in and out for you. The neat thing about the FreeFlight units is that you can add WiFi out for ForeFlight and eliminate the Stratus... if you use that.

The only thing, I am 99% sure on, the FreeFlight unit will NOT do is display weather on your 530W. You would need the GDL-88 to do that... which would also give you in and out with your setup. You would lose the wifi option for ForeFlight, but I believe for a few more dollars you could add a Flightstream 210 to a GDL-88 and get wifi for Garmin Pilot app.

 

[182driver]

My GTX330ES is now installed and working in my 1976 Cessna 182P. I went with Virginia Aviation who quoted me $3800 which seemed absurdly low. The actual cost was $3644.82 (including my $200 coupon from Garmin) because the quote did not include my coupon or the tax of about $170 or freight of $16 or some misc supplies of about $28. That made the cost much more in line with what I expected.

$3800 - $200 coupon + $16.47 freight + $28.35 Misc Supplies = $3644.82 or $44.82 more than quoted.
I had some confusion about the bill because of the way it was done, but it is correct. I also had a $225 change for an extra IFR pitot static inspection that I requested.

Jason said it would be more than 1 day and less than 2, but I dropped the plane off Sunday night since Jason asked for it on Monday, and it was not done until Wednesday at 3:00 pm. So 2.5 days.

Jason WAS able to get and install the unit 2 weeks after I ordered it.

Not bad at all, but not absolutely perfect.

I'd recommend Virginia Aviation if you live in my part of the woods but, as always, you need to be clear on the "I'm going to write the check out ahead of time, exactly how much is the total going to be" part of it because of the sales tax. The other quotes I got were more than my total and the experience with the accuracy of quotes and the turnaround time of the other shops tells me that 3 days is fantastic and the price was good, but your mileage may vary.

 

[182driver]

I messed up the numbers on my previous post so badly that I have corrected it and feel the need to summarize here.
My GTX330ES installed cost was:

$3800 - $200 coupon + $16.47 freight + $28.35 Misc Supplies = $3644.82 or $44.82 more than the quoted price of $3800 - $200 coupon = $3600.
Add $178.63 for sales tax = $3823.45.
Add $225 for the IFR pitot static system inspection that I requested = $4048.45.
My actual bill was $4038.76 but I won't explain it unless someone wants me to.

 

[McDiver]

(Lots of information on this site; got me to sign up for the site. Go easy on the newbie! Thanks)

Existing Garmin 430 is kaput, so I'm fixing/upgrading to the G430 WAAS.
My existing xpndr is the original ARC RT-359A. I figure since they have things opened up, maybe I do the ADS-B Out compliance now as well.

I was originally considering getting the GTX330ES to get ADS-B compliant. Instead, my avionics house is recommending adding a GDL88 (no WAAS) and a new pressure altitude encoder to get ADS-B Out compliant; and just stick with the existing transponder.

I fly below FL180, and in the US (though have considered a trip to Mexico and across Canada to get to Alaska). I use a Stratus-II plus iPad for ADS-B In.

Excluding installation (haven't received that quote for the two options), seems like the GDL88 path would be about $800 more expensive using online prices, but I'd get traffic and weather on the 430W (the integrated traffic callouts would be especially nice IMO). I'd also keep looking at my old transponder and wouldn't have 1090ES capability, but I think I can live with that.

Thoughts?
Is one installation easier than the other?
Curiosity question (not likely to sway my decision): will ADS-B compliance be mandatory in Canada and Mexico?