Add Commercial Privileges for Existing Seaplane Rating

[iamtheari]

I am a PPL-ASEL. I have been planning to get my ASES rating this summer, just as a gift to myself and not with any particular plan to buy a float plane. I am also nearing the hours for my CPL and want to get that within the next year for the various benefits it brings. Prestige among my peers, being a better pilot, going on 1,500-mile solo cross-countries, and so on. I have no plans to fly for compensation, whether on land or on water. But I'm OCD enough that I would want to add the commercial privileges for the seaplane rating.

The ACS for private and commercial pilot certificates give a very similar list of tasks for the ASES add-on rating. Oddly, here are the areas where I noticed the CPL differs:

* ADD Preflight Procedures: preflight assessment, flight deck management, taxiing and sailing, before takeoff check
* ADD Airport and Seaplane Base Operations: traffic patterns
* SUBTRACT Emergency Operations: emergency descent, emergency approach and landing, systems and equipment malfunction

What does the check ride really consist of for adding ASES commercial privileges when you have an ASEL commercial certificate and ASES private privileges? Do you have to repeat everything to commercial standards? I wouldn't mind paying to fly a seaplane again a year or so down the road, but I would mind doing so to do the rating all over again.

 

[denverpilot]

* SUBTRACT Emergency Operations: emergency descent, emergency approach and landing, systems and equipment malfunction

That's interesting. I hadn't dug into the Commercial ACS to compare the Seaplane stuff to the PTS yet.

I'd say if you're going to get the Commercial ASES for any reason, it's probably just easier long-term to train for that ride as an add-on to the Commercial ASEL right after you do that one, and skip the Private ASES add-on.

But that's an off the cuff answer without looking it over much.

 

[James331]

So if you're currently a PPL, I'd do your initial CPL in a seaplane, find a 172xp or something, any seaplane with flaps and a CS prop can be used for complex time. Then just do the SEL add on, easy peasy.

 

[iamtheari]

So if you're currently a PPL, I'd do your initial CPL in a seaplane, find a 172xp or something, any seaplane with flaps and a CS prop can be used for complex time. Then just do the SEL add on, easy peasy.

I'll check with the seaplane base I'm looking at. There are none close so I have to go 450nm away to find one. I think I'd save money by learning the CPL maneuvers and practicing them in my own plane and then going to the seaplane base to learn float flying and get the sign-off. It'll take more time but I like your idea. Kind of the more fun equivalent of people who do their initial CPL in a multi.

 

[mondtster]

What seaplane school are you looking at?

Also, what are your intentions with the seaplane rating? Just enjoyment and earning the rating or do you plan on actually flying floats? The added time to do an initial commercial in a float plane might be beneficial in being insurable in a float plane if you plan on flying one again.

Otherwise if It is mainly for fun doing the commercial land rating first and adding on the sea later would be cheaper and less time away from home if that is a concern.

 

[mondtster]

I forgot to mention what the checkride would consist of for the seaplane add on. This is under the PTS, ACS may differ but not likely by much.

Normal takeoff and landing
Glassy water take off and landing
Rough water takeoff and landing
Crosswind takeoff and landing
Emergency landing
Displacement taxi
Plow taxi
Step taxi
Sailing
Docking

That's pretty much it. If you're a halfway proficient pilot on wheels you'll probably be able to do it in 5ish hours plus the checkride. It is an easy add on checkride to do, but it is definitely a license to learn. I'd tread lightly for a while after earning the rating while you learn more.

 

[James331]

I forgot to mention what the checkride would consist of for the seaplane add on. This is under the PTS, ACS may differ but not likely by much.

Normal takeoff and landing
Glassy water take off and landing
Rough water takeoff and landing
Crosswind takeoff and landing
Emergency landing
Displacement taxi
Plow taxi
Step taxi
Sailing
Docking

That's pretty much it. If you're a halfway proficient pilot on wheels you'll probably be able to do it in 5ish hours plus the checkride. It is an easy add on checkride to do, but it is definitely a license to learn. I'd tread lightly for a while after earning the rating while you learn more.

I don't think that'll be a option if he rents, or if he chooses to buy insurance, no one would willingly let someone loose solo in a seaplane with 5 hours.

 

[iamtheari]

What seaplane school are you looking at?

Also, what are your intentions with the seaplane rating? Just enjoyment and earning the rating or do you plan on actually flying floats? The added time to do an initial commercial in a float plane might be beneficial in being insurable in a float plane if you plan on flying one again.

Otherwise if It is mainly for fun doing the commercial land rating first and adding on the sea later would be cheaper and less time away from home if that is a concern.

Adventure Seaplanes, in Minnesota near the Twin Cities during the summer. My goal is just fun, but it would be nice to have the ability to rent a seaplane when I am in a place where they are available for rent, and of course it would be a badge of honor to have my pilot certificate say that I was, at one time, able to fly a seaplane to commercial standards and that I have no restrictions on exercising commercial privileges (which I'll never actually exercise, but that's really not the point).

Here are the ACS areas of operation that I noted are required to add ASES to ASEL.

For Private (areas not mentioned in Commercial in bold):
I: Preflight Preparation
F: Performance and Limitations
G: Operation of Systems
I: Water and Seaplane Characteristics, Seaplane Bases, Maritime Rules and Aids to Marine Navigation
II: Preflight Procedures
E: Taxiing and Sailing (note: I mistakenly listed this as missing in my first post, above)
IV: Takeoffs, Landings, and Go-Arounds
A: Normal Takeoff and Climb
B: Normal Approach and Landing
G: Confined Area Takeoff and Maximum Performance Climb
H: Confined Area Approach and Landing
I: Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb
J: Glassy Water Approach and Landing
K: Rough Water Takeoff and Climb
L: Rough Water Approach and Landing
IX: Emergency Operations
A: Emergency Descent
B: Emergency Approach and Landing (Simulated)
C: Systems and Equipment Malfunction
XII: Postflight Procedures
B: Seaplane Post-Landing Procedures

For Commercial (areas not in Private in bold):
I: Preflight Preparation
F: Performance and Limitations
G: Operation of Systems
I: Water and Seaplane Characteristics, Seaplane Bases, Maritime Rules, and Aids to Marine Navigation
II: Preflight Procedures
A: Preflight Assessment
B: Flight Deck Management
E: Taxiing and Sailing
F: Before Takeoff Check
III: Airport and Seaplane Base Operations
B: Traffic Patterns
IV: Takeoffs and Go-Arounds
A: Normal Takeoff and Climb
B: Normal Approach and Landing
G: Confined Area Takeoff and Maximum Performance Climb
H: Confined Area Approach and Landing
I: Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb
J: Glassy Water Approach and Landing
K: Rough Water Takeoff and Climb
L: Rough Water Approach and Landing
XI: Postflight Procedures
B Seaplane Post-Landing Procedures

But it's not entirely clear if the same list applies to add commercial privileges for a rating you currently hold private privileges in. That is, I know that the above lists apply if you are PPL-ASEL and want to add PPL-ASES or if you are CPL-ASEL and want to add CPL-ASEL. But if you are CPL-ASEL and PPL-ASES, does the same list apply for making that CPL-ASEL+ASES? I would assume so because of the higher standards, and for that reason I'd do two complete ASES check rides if I did it as a PPL and later as a CPL. But if that's not the case, it makes more sense to do just one ASES check ride, either to add it to CPL from scratch or to get the initial CPL.

 

[mondtster]

I don't think that'll be a option if he rents, or if he chooses to buy insurance, no one would willingly let someone loose solo in a seaplane with 5 hours.

Yeah, with 5 hours it likely isn't happening. That's why I wondered what the end goal was. If the goal is to have fun for a few hours and be able to say you flew floats 5 hours will get someone to the point of passing a checkride. Insurability is another story.

 

[mondtster]

Adventure Seaplanes, in Minnesota near the Twin Cities during the summer. My goal is just fun, but it would be nice to have the ability to rent a seaplane when I am in a place where they are available for rent, and of course it would be a badge of honor to have my pilot certificate say that I was, at one time, able to fly a seaplane to commercial standards and that I have no restrictions on exercising commercial privileges (which I'll never actually exercise, but that's really not the point).

But it's not entirely clear if the same list applies to add commercial privileges for a rating you currently hold private privileges in. That is, I know that the above lists apply if you are PPL-ASEL and want to add PPL-ASES or if you are CPL-ASEL and want to add CPL-ASEL. But if you are CPL-ASEL and PPL-ASES, does the same list apply for making that CPL-ASEL+ASES? I would assume so because of the higher standards, and for that reason I'd do two complete ASES check rides if I did it as a PPL and later as a CPL. But if that's not the case, it makes more sense to do just one ASES check ride, either to add it to CPL from scratch or to get the initial CPL.

Most places don't rent seaplanes solo, or at least don't advertise as doing so. I have only heard of two places willing to do that, Adventure Seaplanes being one of them. So if you wanted to rent a float plane somewhere and tool around for a bit you're probably going to be hiring an instructor as well. It's probably not a huge deal for someone doing what you want to do.

Regarding the questions about the checkride and what is covered, I'm a bit confused. When you go to take an initial commercial checkride you're going to be tested on everything applicable on the PTS/ACS, regardless of what ratings you currently hold at the private level. Same thing for adding on a seaplane rating. So I don't think there would be any benefit to getting a seaplane rating at the private level if the intention was to get the commercial seaplane rating at a later date. Especially in your shoes, where it doesn't sound like you're trying to build seaplane hours in order to be insurable or employable.

BTW, I didn't get my seaplane rating with Adventure Seaplanes but I did go on one of their Canada trips. Brian, the owner, is a good guy.

 

[iamtheari]

Most places don't rent seaplanes solo, or at least don't advertise as doing so. I have only heard of two places willing to do that, Adventure Seaplanes being one of them. So if you wanted to rent a float plane somewhere and tool around for a bit you're probably going to be hiring an instructor as well. It's probably not a huge deal for someone doing what you want to do.

Regarding the questions about the checkride and what is covered, I'm a bit confused. When you go to take an initial commercial checkride you're going to be tested on everything applicable on the PTS/ACS, regardless of what ratings you currently hold at the private level. Same thing for adding on a seaplane rating. So I don't think there would be any benefit to getting a seaplane rating at the private level if the intention was to get the commercial seaplane rating at a later date. Especially in your shoes, where it doesn't sound like you're trying to build seaplane hours in order to be insurable or employable.

BTW, I didn't get my seaplane rating with Adventure Seaplanes but I did go on one of their Canada trips. Brian, the owner, is a good guy.

Sorry to confuse. The question is this: Is the CPL-ASES check ride the same or different if you go Option 1 (PPL-ASEL, PPL-ASES, CPL-ASEL, CPL-ASES) vs. Option 2 (PPL-ASEL, CPL-ASEL, CPL-ASES)? You seem to have answered that in the affirmative.

The only real reason to get CPL-ASES is so my eventual commercial certificate does not have a "PRIVATE PRIVILEGES" limitation. It's an OCD thing and I should probably spend this time thinking about flying rather than what the certificate might say.

Glad to hear Brian's a good guy. The trip to Canada sounds like a blast. Catch any fish?

 

[mondtster]

Sorry to confuse. The question is this: Is the CPL-ASES check ride the same or different if you go Option 1 (PPL-ASEL, PPL-ASES, CPL-ASEL, CPL-ASES) vs. Option 2 (PPL-ASEL, CPL-ASEL, CPL-ASES)? You seem to have answered that in the affirmative.

Regardless of whether you hold a private single engine seaplane rating or not, you're going to have to demonstrate the maneuvers required on the commercial PTS when you do the commercial seaplane rating. In other words, you won't get any credit for holding a private sea rating first then going for the commercial.

Glad to hear Brian's a good guy. The trip to Canada sounds like a blast. Catch any fish?

We had a good time. The fishing was excellent, which is one of the perks of going somewhere that you can only get to via float plane. It was the best lake trout fishing I've done. I'm headed to a different area of Canada this weekend to do a little float flying, hopefully I'll get to do a little fishing while I'm up there.

 

[denverpilot]

For your questions about the flow of add on ratings, see the "Additional Ratings Task Table" in the ACS documents. That covers what has to be done at an add-on if you already have the certificate.

 

[iamtheari]

For your questions about the flow of add on ratings, see the "Additional Ratings Task Table" in the ACS documents. That covers what has to be done at an add-on if you already have the certificate.

That's the source of my information above. It just wasn't explicit about requiring those tasks for upgrading a rating you had as PPL to be able to exercise your CPL privileges with it, which has been answered now.

 

[denverpilot]

That's the source of my information above. It just wasn't explicit about requiring those tasks for upgrading a rating you had as PPL to be able to exercise your CPL privileges with it, which has been answered now.

Ah ok. I see what you were hung up on.