Actual ifr question

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flyboy1

Filing Flight Plan
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flyboy1
My buddy and I are both currently instrument rated, and current. We would like to go shoot some approaches together in actual Instrument conditions.

What is the procedure for actually starting the flight? we are at a towered airport. Do we need to file a flight plan and say we are just going to shoot local approaches? or can we just start up and call tower for an IFR clearance? any information on this subject would be helpful and also the ways you would handle a local Actual IMC flight and also the best way to get going on an actual IMC cross country. Thanks!
 
Since you are not a student and already have an instrument ticket... the answer can be found in 91.173

Based on your questions I would also recommend a couple of hours with a CFI-I going over instrument flight rules to avoid getting yourself in trouble.
 
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flyboy1 said:
My buddy and I are both currently instrument rated, and current. We would like to go shoot some approaches together in actual Instrument conditions.

What is the procedure for actually starting the flight? we are at a towered airport. Do we need to file a flight plan and say we are just going to shoot local approaches? or can we just start up and call tower for an IFR clearance? any information on this subject would be helpful and also the ways you would handle a local Actual IMC flight and also the best way to get going on an actual IMC cross country. Thanks!
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You can't go wrong by filing in advance. While that may not be required the tower might respond to your request by directing you to call FSS. Rather inconvenient if you're sitting in the airplane with the engine running. Since it's so easy to file online and you obviously have a computer I recommend that you do so.
 
I understand the FAR stated previously but my practical experience is slightly different. I'm next to the CHS Class-C airspace. I'll depart VFR and call class-c approach to request the various practice approaches and options etc. They typically ask if I want to stay VFR or go IFR. As I like to go "play" when there is a nice 1000' overcast that is hopefully a couple thousand feet thick I'll select IFR; I'll get a local code and off into the scud we go. The advantage is you get "real" approaches. The disadvantage is the controller will give you IFR seperation so you will spend more time in the pattern.

As you have the tower why not pick up the phone and ask; they will tell you what they prefer.
 
Baron2PG said:
I understand the FAR stated previously but my practical experience is slightly different. I'm next to the CHS Class-C airspace. I'll depart VFR and call class-c approach to request the various practice approaches and options etc. .
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They are talking about departing in actual IMC. Different situation.
 
Baron2PG said:
I understand the FAR stated previously but my practical experience is slightly different. I'm next to the CHS Class-C airspace. I'll depart VFR and call class-c approach to request the various practice approaches and options etc. They typically ask if I want to stay VFR or go IFR. As I like to go "play" when there is a nice 1000' overcast that is hopefully a couple thousand feet thick I'll select IFR; I'll get a local code and off into the scud we go. The advantage is you get "real" approaches. The disadvantage is the controller will give you IFR seperation so you will spend more time in the pattern.

As you have the tower why not pick up the phone and ask; they will tell you what they prefer.
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Good advice.

Around here, I've never had a problem just going out and calling up clearance and telling that that we're going to be shooting approaches under IFR.
 
roncachamp said:
With regard to FAR 91.173, how is it different?
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Baron2PG is departing in VMC under VFR not under IFR. The OP is operating in IMC under IFR from the very begining of his flight. 91.173 comes into play before he can leave the ground at his Class D airport, whereas for Baron2PG is not governed by the reg until he is under IFR. In the 'pop up' scenario the controller is filling out the flight plan for him. I suspect you already know that though.
 
As others said, the question raises questions, but, presuming that you're both interested in shooting some approaches and that neither of you are instructors, you'll probably want to file an IFR plan to another airport somewhere where you can get out and swap places, so that you both get left seat time. So you'll file two flight plans, one under person A to airport XYZ, and the other under person B back to the original airport ABC, and put in the comments block that you want to do practice approaches. You'll get normal IFR separation and if they're busy they may tell you that they don't have time for practice approaches and that you should expect the next landing to be full stop. If the destination airport XYZ is nontowered, you may be able to get clearance for your departure while still in the air, presuming that you won't be able to depart VFR. Otherwise you'll need to get your clearance on the ground, either via radio (if there's reception) or cell phone.
 
Dr. O said:
The question raises questions...
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EdFred said:
this times infinity.
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Gents please,

Sometimes a question may be a smokescreen for something else the OP is trying to find out, that may not be properly phrased. There may be many reasons for using one, but this should be a place where one shouldn't be made to feel embarrased for asking (if the purpose is for learning) or (maybe this case) re-learning what has become rusty. As you can see, the OP has 1-post and now you-all dun run em' off.:nono:
 
Where i fly out of, (southern CA), we have TEC routes. Predefined routes that are in the AFD. We call up ground and ask for Tower enroute to wherever we are going. The only times i haven't used a TEC route was to PSP, OAK and IPL. As far as practice approaches in actual, we just call up the approach controller and ask for them. My II and i shot 3 approaches to 3 different airports, and each time, we were asked how the approach would terminate.
 
sounds like people shoot practice approaches locally in the soup without filing beforehand. but what about 91.173? so, if i can get a hold of approach before entering soup and request to shoot practice approaches IFR then i do NOT need to file before?? And, if i will not be able to contact before hand i need to file and also get a clearance before taking off.

Can i get that clearance at the same time filing the flight or do i need to call back before takeoff?

Thanks guys. I am rusty with radio/clearnace procedures before an Instrument flight
 
I think the OP's question is one of procedure. Let's say I'm at a towered Class D airport in IFR conditions and I want to just do some approaches at the same airport. Typically I can just ask ground for a series of approaches beginning with the ILS at Kxxx and they will give me an IFR clearance and I'll be on my way. If the airport itself is VFR but the approach isn't I might state in my request I need an IFR clearance just so it's understood. But I've done this many dozens of times in training - I'm suprised that the OP would not have done likewise.
 
If you wanna do them all at your airport file to local VOR and back. In remarks section put training. Give your intentions to the controller. Should be 0 problem​
 
Safest thing is to do is to file an IFR flight plan from XYZ to XYZ, and put in the comments "request multiple approaches XYZ". Then call clearance and you should be good to go.

You MAY be able to just call up the local ATC facility if you're inside Class C surface or a TEC-freindly facilty and get a squawk code and clearance, but as noted above you're making the controller do the work of putting you in the system.

By filing the plan in advance you're already in the system, a strip is getting generated for you, and ATC will be ready to respond when you call for the clearance. So please do that. If you treat every flight under IFR the same way you'd treat an IFR flight across the country, you'll develop good habits and behave in a way that ATC is ready to handle.

Kent's idea about going to another airport, shooting approaches there, landing and changing places and then returning is a good one.
 
Where is the OP located. That may help.

As Steve just mentioned, if you are located within a TRACON area that does alot of TEC, then that is the easiest way. I routinely use TEC for shooting approaches in actual - usually depart MYF and fly to a nearby airport (OCN, CRQ, SEE, SDM...etc) shoot the approach and return. My initiall callup to MYF ground is essentially to request TEC to say Oceanside. Then once I'm up with Approach, they will ask how the approach will terminate and I'll give them my plan to include missed approaches, holds..etc. Here in SoCal, this works very well.
 
flyboy1 said:
sounds like people shoot practice approaches locally in the soup without filing beforehand. but what about 91.173? so, if i can get a hold of approach before entering soup and request to shoot practice approaches IFR then i do NOT need to file before?? And, if i will not be able to contact before hand i need to file and also get a clearance before taking off.

Can i get that clearance at the same time filing the flight or do i need to call back before takeoff?

Thanks guys. I am rusty with radio/clearnace procedures before an Instrument flight
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At a typical Class D airport you can request a clearance on ground frequency and they will give you the clearance. You can't take off without receiving the clearance, and I doubt the tower would let you it you tried. If you haven't received it by the time you've done your runup and you're ready to go then yes, you would need to call back to receive your clearance.

If you're already in the air under VFR you just request a clearance through ATC but you obviously have to get it before leaving VFR conditions. I request pop-ups all the time if I have a long flight that can be flown VFR but requires an IFR approach at the end. Being on flight following speeds the process.
 
flyboy1 said:
sounds like people shoot practice approaches locally in the soup without filing beforehand. but what about 91.173? so, if i can get a hold of approach before entering soup and request to shoot practice approaches IFR then i do NOT need to file before?? And, if i will not be able to contact before hand i need to file and also get a clearance before taking off.

Can i get that clearance at the same time filing the flight or do i need to call back before takeoff?

Thanks guys. I am rusty with radio/clearnace procedures before an Instrument flight
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Then I suggest you go with a CFII. If you are rusty on the radios, what else is rusty?
 
Tim is right, I file before hand though I usually add the IAP in the route of flight and then the original airport as my final destination. Then in the comments add multiple practice approaches.
 
ScottM said:
Baron2PG is departing in VMC under VFR not under IFR. The OP is operating in IMC under IFR from the very begining of his flight. 91.173 comes into play before he can leave the ground at his Class D airport, whereas for Baron2PG is not governed by the reg until he is under IFR. In the 'pop up' scenario the controller is filling out the flight plan for him. I suspect you already know that though.
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Why is 91.173 applicable when beginning an IFR flight from the surface when IMC prevail but not when beginning an IFR flight when airborne in VMC? There's nothing in the reg that distinguishes one from the other. If the controller can fill out the flight plan for the pilot on a popup why can't the controller fill one out when a pilot makes a request for a local IFR clearance?
 
roncachamp said:
Why is 91.173 applicable when beginning an IFR flight from the surface when IMC prevail but not when beginning an IFR flight when airborne in VMC?
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I never said it wasn't. The example I provided did not either.

Are you just missing your lovefests with Ron and looking to manufacture an argument?

Back onto ignore you go :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
TMetzinger said:
Safest thing is to do is to file an IFR flight plan from XYZ to XYZ, and put in the comments "request multiple approaches XYZ". Then call clearance and you should be good to go.

You MAY be able to just call up the local ATC facility if you're inside Class C surface or a TEC-freindly facilty and get a squawk code and clearance, but as noted above you're making the controller do the work of putting you in the system.

By filing the plan in advance you're already in the system, a strip is getting generated for you, and ATC will be ready to respond when you call for the clearance. So please do that. If you treat every flight under IFR the same way you'd treat an IFR flight across the country, you'll develop good habits and behave in a way that ATC is ready to handle.

Grant's idea about going to another airport, shooting approaches there, landing and changing places and then returning is a good one.
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I was back seat with a couple of instructors who did basically that, except they didn't swap seats, since they are obviously comfortable flying from the right seat. That's why I added the caveat about presuming the OP and friend aren't instructors. The other advantages are that they will likely get to log XC time and it's much more realistic, since they're really using the system. Around here, at least, TEC isn't an option.

(And FTFY. I know it was just a slip. Kent is the one whose voice is in your head! :))
 
Sac Arrow said:
At a typical Class D airport you can request a clearance on ground frequency and they will give you the clearance. You can't take off without receiving the clearance, and I doubt the tower would let you it you tried. If you haven't received it by the time you've done your runup and you're ready to go then yes, you would need to call back to receive your clearance.

If you're already in the air under VFR you just request a clearance through ATC but you obviously have to get it before leaving VFR conditions. I request pop-ups all the time if I have a long flight that can be flown VFR but requires an IFR approach at the end. Being on flight following speeds the process.
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I request pop ups as well. But if I am on the ground and in IMC I will take the time to actually file prior to attempting to depart as a courtesy to the controller instead of making them do the work.
 
ScottM said:
I request pop ups as well. But if I am on the ground and in IMC I will take the time to actually file prior to attempting to depart as a courtesy to the controller instead of making them do the work.
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I don't know how much work it is or isn't for controllers to put me in. I've had the whole range of responses, from "contact FSS, and file with them" to "what's your equipment code?" and everything in between.
 
flyboy1 said:
sounds like people shoot practice approaches locally in the soup without filing beforehand. but what about 91.173?
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What about it? The regulation says only:

§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has—

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and


(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.
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So you call ATC and tell them who you are and what you want to to, they take your information and respond with an appropriate ATC clearance, and you've fully complied with FAR 91.173.

so, if i can get a hold of approach before entering soup and request to shoot practice approaches IFR then i do NOT need to file before??
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See above.

And, if i will not be able to contact before hand i need to file and also get a clearance before taking off.

Can i get that clearance at the same time filing the flight or do i need to call back before takeoff?
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You need to file and receive a clearance before operating IFR in controlled airspace. It can be hours before, or milliseconds before. You can file with FSS, with ATC, online, etc.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know how much work it is or isn't for controllers to put me in. I've had the whole range of responses, from "contact FSS, and file with them" to "what's your equipment code?" and everything in between.
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Me too, but that is mostly when doing a pop up. I figure when I am on the ground and checking weather I can pick up the phone or use the computer to input the data myself. Calling ground just seems lazy.
 
flyboy1 said:
sounds like people shoot practice approaches locally in the soup without filing beforehand. but what about 91.173? so, if i can get a hold of approach before entering soup and request to shoot practice approaches IFR then i do NOT need to file before?? And, if i will not be able to contact before hand i need to file and also get a clearance before taking off.

Can i get that clearance at the same time filing the flight or do i need to call back before takeoff?

Thanks guys. I am rusty with radio/clearnace procedures before an Instrument flight
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It still sounds like you're a bit rusty. You're making it sound like filing before is different from asking clearance for a popup. For all intents and purposes, they are the same thing. The only difference is that in one case you're doing the work of filing the flight plan before you request the clearance. In the other you're asking the controller to do that for you. In both cases a flight plan is filed and an IFR clearance must given before operating IFR in controlled airspace.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know how much work it is or isn't for controllers to put me in.
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Depends on the location, but it's probably less than most pilots assume. If the request is made directly to the controller responsible for the area and you intend to remain solely in that area there's nothing for the controller to coordinate. You tell him what you want to do, he issues a clearance, that's it.
 
roncachamp said:
Depends on the location, but it's probably less than most pilots assume. If the request is made directly to the controller responsible for the area and you intend to remain solely in that area there's nothing for the controller to coordinate. You tell him what you want to do, he issues a clearance, that's it.
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GRR usually asks nothing. Either they recognize my number, or don't care. Pretty much all I get is "cleared via radar vectors, advise cancellation" MKG seems to want people on board, fuel left, etc...even when going into MKG.
 
ScottM said:
I request pop ups as well. But if I am on the ground and in IMC I will take the time to actually file prior to attempting to depart as a courtesy to the controller instead of making them do the work.
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EdFred said:
I don't know how much work it is or isn't for controllers to put me in. I've had the whole range of responses, from "contact FSS, and file with them" to "what's your equipment code?" and everything in between.
Click to expand...

roncachamp said:
Depends on the location, but it's probably less than most pilots assume. If the request is made directly to the controller responsible for the area and you intend to remain solely in that area there's nothing for the controller to coordinate. You tell him what you want to do, he issues a clearance, that's it.
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I only do that if I'm shooting local approaches and it doesn't seem to put the controller out. But if I actually intend on going someplace, I will of course prefile.
 
TMetzinger said:
Safest thing is to do is to file an IFR flight plan from XYZ to XYZ, and put in the comments "request multiple approaches XYZ". Then call clearance and you should be good to go.

You MAY be able to just call up the local ATC facility if you're inside Class C surface or a TEC-freindly facilty and get a squawk code and clearance, but as noted above you're making the controller do the work of putting you in the system.

By filing the plan in advance you're already in the system, a strip is getting generated for you, and ATC will be ready to respond when you call for the clearance. So please do that. If you treat every flight under IFR the same way you'd treat an IFR flight across the country, you'll develop good habits and behave in a way that ATC is ready to handle.

Kent's idea about going to another airport, shooting approaches there, landing and changing places and then returning is a good one.
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" If you treat every flight under IFR the same way you'd treat an IFR flight across the country, you'll develop good habits and behave in a way that ATC is ready to handle."

That was my point the other day when I said I always practice in "the system"
 
dennyleeb said:
" If you treat every flight under IFR the same way you'd treat an IFR flight across the country, you'll develop good habits and behave in a way that ATC is ready to handle."

That was my point the other day when I said I always practice in "the system"
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Yeah because getting a pop up is such a wrench in the system it's going to make us fall out of the sky and crash.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah because getting a pop up is such a wrench in the system it's going to make us fall out of the sky and crash.
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I honestly don't even know what you mean. Out of pure curiosity how old are you? You seem to talk alot about your dads plane. Not trying to argue just curious.
 
dennyleeb said:
I honestly don't even know what you mean. Out of pure curiosity how old are you? You seem to talk alot about your dads plane. Not trying to argue just curious.
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Seven.
 
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