Across the Phoenix

[zaitcev]

I have a feeling this thread happened many times before, but I do not see a good one to necropost. So... I'm thinking about flying to Phoenix for the first time, VFR. The usual suggestion for ABQ people is to sneak around north and into Deer Valley. Unfortunately at this time I might need to go to Buckeye, which is right across on the other side from me. And boy, does that airspace look intimidating. At least in Denver you can always go from plains side.

So, I am trying to figure out if I should
1. request a transit, get vectors (not a guarantee VFR though)
2. go north - the terrain looks worse and there's this weird airbase airspace
3. go south - the longest route, but reasonably flat and I can always retreat way south

What would Phoenix people do?

P.S. Going to a pilot's shop later today to pick TAC, you can assume I have it and list landmarks on it.

 

[JOhnH]

I guess I have it easy. I will be going to PHX from KOMN (near Daytona Beach Florida) in 4 weeks from now (VFR in a 172). We will be taking the southern route through El Paso.

I have a feeling this thread happened many times before, but I do not see a good one to necropost. So... I'm thinking about flying to Phoenix for the first time, VFR. The usual suggestion for ABQ people is to sneak around north and into Deer Valley. Unfortunately at this time I might need to go to Buckeye, which is right across on the other side from me. And boy, does that airspace look intimidating. At least in Denver you can always go from plains side.

So, I am trying to figure out if I should
1. request a transit, get vectors (not a guarantee VFR though)
2. go north - the terrain looks worse and there's this weird airbase airspace
3. go south - the longest route, but reasonably flat and I can always retreat way south

What would Phoenix people do?

P.S. Going to a pilot's shop later today to pick TAC, you can assume I have it and list landmarks on it.

 

[GCA319]

The few times I've been there, I always found the east or west transition around PHX pretty easy to get, so you could request then, then skirt the southern edge of the B into Bukeye. As a more direct route,you could always go over Wickenburg, direct to the Buckeye VOR then direct the airport. That route would keep you out of the alert area to the east and the MOA to the west.A word of caution: keep your head up in the airspace north of DVT-that area is one of the busiest practice areas in the country. I'll be there on tuesday for work, but we'll be IFR from TUS into DVT

 

[Henning]

Just call ATC, tell them where you need to go and ask them what works best for them and keeps you out of the rugged terrain. You'd be amazed at how accommodating they can be when you phrase things like that. PHX is pretty friendly in fact. When I left DVT to pick up a buddy at PHX I asked them where they wanted me to set up to enter. They just brought me straight in to base, crossed the rest of the approaches and roped me on the left.

 

[Z06_Mir]

The few times I've been there, I always found the east or west transition around PHX pretty easy to get, so you could request then, then skirt the southern edge of the B into Bukeye. As a more direct route,you could always go over Wickenburg, direct to the Buckeye VOR then direct the airport. That route would keep you out of the alert area to the east and the MOA to the west.A word of caution: keep your head up in the airspace north of DVT-that area is one of the busiest practice areas in the country. I'll be there on tuesday for work, but we'll be IFR from TUS into DVT

I have made the East and West transitions countless times. Probably around 15. I've never been denied the transition, and I don't know anyone that has, but I'm sure it's possible. If you're flying into Buckeye you probably won't want the east or west transition so the class B clearance will likely depend on what runways they are landing. I flew from KCHD to KHII and used the Buckeye VOR as a waypoint (VFR at night) with FF they cleared me into the class B at my own navigation then asked me to alter course just a bit to stay out of their arrivals. Phoenix may also hand you over to Luke and they will take care of you. I've landed at almost every airport in the city, including KPHX in a 182, and I've never had an issue with any controller tower or approach. Keep with radar contact as much as possible since you're not familiar with the practice areas, they are extremely congested and there have been two mid-airs there in the last year.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. Like I said, I live here, I've flown here a lot from east/west and north/south.

 

[warthog1984]

Since it is a Phoenix thread...

What are the odds of getting cleared in KPHX VFR in a 152/172? What is the landing fee? If you have trouble getting into KPHX, is there a bus or anything from Deer Valley?

I'm looking at a Sat evening / Sun mid-day in Oct.

Thanks!

 

[Henning]

Since it is a Phoenix thread...

What are the odds of getting cleared in KPHX VFR in a 152/172? What is the landing fee? If you have trouble getting into KPHX, is there a bus or anything from Deer Valley?

I'm looking at a Sat evening / Sun mid-day in Oct.

Thanks!

No worries getting in, there were no fees I was charged in the 310, Cutter didn't charge me either, though I think they were saying $25 on Airnav(the counter gal came out to look at my plane because she thought it was so pretty.) and let me use a crew car to drive to the terminal and pick up my buddy. I didn't use enough fuel to make it worth bringing the truck over to top me off.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Since it is a Phoenix thread...

What are the odds of getting cleared in KPHX VFR in a 152/172? What is the landing fee? If you have trouble getting into KPHX, is there a bus or anything from Deer Valley?

I'm looking at a Sat evening / Sun mid-day in Oct.

Thanks!

Good question....I fly GA into PHX a couple times a year and gave no trouble, but I am always IFR. If you are VFR and going to PHX, I don't think they can deny you like they frequently do for the VFR folks looking to transition the Bravo, but bring your A game. PHX is busy. The nice thing about PHX is that they are very accommodating about routing GA to the south runway which makes it relatively easy to get in and out. You will have a MUCH easier/quicker time departing PHX than DVT.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Since it is a Phoenix thread...

What are the odds of getting cleared in KPHX VFR in a 152/172? What is the landing fee? If you have trouble getting into KPHX, is there a bus or anything from Deer Valley?

I'm looking at a Sat evening / Sun mid-day in Oct.

Thanks!

I prefer KPHX to DVT, no joke. Getting in has never been an issue for me, I've taken my 182 in multiple times. Cutter is great. They may or may not charge the ramp fee which is around $25, I always went on their free BBQ days though so they never charged. Phx always put me on the south runway so taxiing was a non event. And for the most part everyone there is English fluent. Deer valley, you won't know what TransFlight is saying to the tower.

 

[Lawreston]

Somewhere over Phoenix in November of 2005. I was only the front seat passenger in Warren McIlvoy's plane on the way back from Sedona and Flagstaff. He had done a blood delivery to Flagstaff for the Red Cross. I think he's based at Phoenix, though I had gone to his Breakfast Club Sunday Brunch at Deer Valley.

HR

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

PHX is easy to operate into VFR. As long as you can fluently speak English, you'll be fine. They frequently try to put you on the runway closest to the FBO's, but it doesn't always work out.

 

[GCA319]

I prefer KPHX to DVT, no joke. Getting in has never been an issue for me, I've taken my 182 in multiple times. Cutter is great. They may or may not charge the ramp fee which is around $25, I always went on their free BBQ days though so they never charged. Phx always put me on the south runway so taxiing was a non event. And for the most part everyone there is English fluent. Deer valley, you won't know what TransFlight is saying to the tower.

Heh...and all this time I thought it was TransFright, not TransFlight.

 

[Fearless Tower]

PHX is easy to operate into VFR. As long as you can fluently speak English, you'll be fine. They frequently try to put you on the runway closest to the FBO's, but it doesn't always work out.

That's debatable. It is not uncommon to call them up only to hear 'aircraft calling PHX approach remain clear of the class B'. My dad was returning IFR not long ago and when Center handed him over to TRACON, that is what they told him on first call up....and he was already on an open IFR flight plan. Yes, once you are able to make actual contact with them, they are not difficult to work with if you speak English and are competent, but there are definite times where they would rather not hear from any VFR traffic.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

That's debatable. It is not uncommon to call them up only to hear 'aircraft calling PHX approach remain clear of the class B'. My dad was returning IFR not long ago and when Center handed him over to TRACON, that is what they told him on first call up....and he was already on an open IFR flight plan. Yes, once you are able to make actual contact with them, they are not difficult to work with if you speak English and are competent, but there are definite times where they would rather not hear from any VFR traffic.

So the solution would be, don't roll up to the Class B without talking to someone. Call ABQ center, let them work it all out. In 2 months of VFR flying 5x a week into PHX, I've never been denied. Asked to hold once for traffic flow, but never denied. Granted, an airline callsign helps. But even the TransPac types that don't speak English, I've never heard them denied.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So the solution would be, don't roll up to the Class B without talking to someone. Call ABQ center, let them work it all out. In 2 months of VFR flying 5x a week into PHX, I've never been denied. Asked to hold once for traffic flow, but never denied. Granted, an airline callsign helps. But even the TransPac types that don't speak English, I've never heard them denied.

Did you actually read my post? In the example I gave, my dad was already IFR with ABQ Center and when he was handed off to PHX Approach when he tried to check in, they treated him like he was a VFR guy and didn't notice that his N number was an active IFR flight.

FWIW, I'm from the Phoenix area (third generation AZ aviator). I hear the TransFright guys get denied all the time....at least 60-70 percent of the time.

 

[zaitcev]

I bought the chart and it turned out that Luke SFRA is only active on workdays. Score! I can just shave hills on the north and turn left straight into Buckeye.

What's interesting, however, is that the chart contains suggested VFR routes that go straight through Class Ds of satellite airports. I suppose it may be easier to talk to those to get a transit than Phoenix approach. Initially I hoped to squeeze between Deer Valley and Scottsdale, but there's not much in the way of landmarks, just a freeway.

 

[dans2992]

I bought the chart and it turned out that Luke SFRA is only active on workdays. Score! I can just shave hills on the north and turn left straight into Buckeye.

What's interesting, however, is that the chart contains suggested VFR routes that go straight through Class Ds of satellite airports. I suppose it may be easier to talk to those to get a transit than Phoenix approach. Initially I hoped to squeeze between Deer Valley and Scottsdale, but there's not much in the way of landmarks, just a freeway.

Don't count on Luke being closed. I know what the chart says but they are open weekends more and more lately.

Don't be afraid to talk to them, it's easy!

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Did you actually read my post? In the example I gave, my dad was already IFR with ABQ Center and when he was handed off to PHX Approach when he tried to check in, they treated him like he was a VFR guy and didn't notice that his N number was an active IFR flight.

FWIW, I'm from the Phoenix area (third generation AZ aviator). I hear the TransFright guys get denied all the time....at least 60-70 percent of the time.

Yeah, one example doesn't mean it happens all the time. For what it's worth, in the last 2 months, I've never heard anyone denied, Transpac or not.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yeah, one example doesn't mean it happens all the time. For what it's worth, in the last 2 months, I've never heard anyone denied, Transpac or not.

It isn't just one example, I hear it all the time. That was just the most blatant example. But, I will admit that haven't flown into PHX since May. If they have become more open to GA, it is because of the fallout over the Superstition crash. We'll see in a week when I fly back there.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

It isn't just one example, I hear it all the time. That was just the most blatant example. But, I will admit that haven't flown into PHX since May. If they have become more open to GA, it is because of the fallout over the Superstition crash. We'll see in a week when I fly back there.

It could very well depend on the sector your in as well. Coming in from the North, I haven't heard anyone get denied. From the south, I've go no idea.

 

[CT4ME]

Overfly kdvt to the SW then get down to 2800 and fly South just east of kgeu, and then dip around KGYR (or overfly) and you'll be at buckeye. No ATC or class B needed.

Ps...the Bravo Transition won't help you much, as it's mostly for going North or South.

 

[zaitcev]

To report, Tim's suggestion was most helpful and I would've followed it, but in event I terminated the flight in Glendale (GLU) and went out to Buckeye by truck. I still used it, with modifications.

Instead of planning a dodging route, I plotted a straight line on with altitude changes and carefuly followed them right into GLU. It took me over the top of Scottsdale. I'm glad I did so, because there landmarks were hard to tell. In particular, I didn't see the so-called "Metro Center" either going there or back.

On the way back, I figured I'd talk to Phoenix at 120.7, but they bounced me off to Luke 118.15, who immediately told me to contact Phoenix at 120.7, who grudgingly agreed to deal with me. And it seemed that they were confused by my actions. Perhaps everyone is supposed to fly level and zig-zag instead of making altitude changes to avoid airspace. I know that altitude changes are contributory to collision hazard.

I never saw another airplane except in the pattern at Glendale. Weird.

 

[danhagan]

3. go south - the longest route, but reasonably flat and I can always retreat way south

That's what I end up with every time.

To report, Tim's suggestion was most helpful and I would've followed it, but in event I terminated the flight in Glendale (GLU) and went out to Buckeye by truck. I still used it, with modifications.

On the way back, I figured I'd talk to Phoenix at 120.7, but they bounced me off to Luke 118.15, who immediately told me to contact Phoenix at 120.7, who grudgingly agreed to deal with me. And it seemed that they were confused by my actions. Perhaps everyone is supposed to fly level and zig-zag instead of making altitude changes to avoid airspace. I know that altitude changes are contributory to collision hazard.

I've been through the PHX area many times, and have never had a good experience:

1. Got your handling last trip to Glendale for a Hockey game. The shuffle contact Buckeye, no go to PHX 120.7, back and forth.
2. Was east bound and asked to divert direct Gila for approach corridor. Did so, and they attempted to drop from FF about 10 minutes later saying I was out of their area. Finally worked out a handoff back to ABQ CTR.
3. I have gotten exactly ONE Class B clearance and I've flown through that area at least twenty times. Maybe if I was going direct across the runways they'd give the transitions, but I usually only want to skirt their space on the way down to land.

PHX doesn't like transition/FF traffic.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm glad I did so, because there landmarks were hard to tell. In particular, I didn't see the so-called "Metro Center" either going there or back.

Here's the thing about Phoenix....if you are from Phoenix, the landmarks are pretty easy to spot and conspicuous...but if you aren't familiar, it can be a pain....especially if there is haze.

Probably true for many areas.

Side note...Metro Center was the filming location for the mall scene in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

 

[zaitcev]

3. I have gotten exactly ONE Class B clearance and I've flown through that area at least twenty times.

I dunno, Dan, I received one yesterday on the way out. Granted, a few minutes later they assigned me a vector with a right turn. Still, it was a clearance. So my experience agrees with what I read at PoA: PHX is much friendlier than DEN. I never was able to talk to anyone at DEN approach inbound, it's always "stay out of Bravo, squak VFR". One time the controller even added "I don't have time to deal with you". Not so in Phoenix. The only strange thing was that the attempt to push me off to Luke. It was doubly strange because when I tuned in to 120.7, they were advising another airplane about me.

 

[zaitcev]

On a lighter note, I heard a few Chinese sounded people from TransArc. The funnier part, however, was a guy in Remos GX, possbly N90GX, who was coming in into Deer Valley and was reeeeally fussy about being recognized as Light-Sport. The controller, however, had no idea what his problem was. At one point the dude tried to say that he's a light-sport like Cessna Skycatcher. Controller said that he never heard of such a model, what was the number? Instead of saying "162", the pilot went into a long-winded explanation yet again. He probably was afraid of being branded as "Skycatcher" for the remainder of the flight. I dunno, Phoenix tried to call me "Cherokee" and "Archer", and I didn't mind as long as they got the tail number right.