AA jet slips off O'Hare runway during taxi
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kevin47881
Final Approach
"hit an icy patch and slid sideways onto a grassy surface at the airport"
"The cause of the incident has not been determined and is under investigation."
"The cause of the incident has not been determined and is under investigation."
With the weather going from twenties to teens a lot of snow melt frozed up again.
kevin47881
Final Approach
I just found the two statements from the same article to be contradictory. In one sentence they state the cause and in another they say the cause has not been determined.
I guess they could be waiting for the FAA to make an official statement?
I guess they could be waiting for the FAA to make an official statement?
Greg Bockelman
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I picked up on that immediately. The other thing was the left main nose gear or some such thing.
kevin47881
Final Approach
Good catch. I read right through that one.
flyingcheesehead
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The first wasn't a cause, it was a result.
kevin47881
Final Approach
flyingcheesehead
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"hit an icy patch and slid sideways onto a grassy surface at the airport"
"The cause of the incident has not been determined and is under investigation."
A patch of ice was the result?
No, the result is that the plane hit an icy patch and slid sideways. The cause would be that either the airport snow/ice removal crews missed a spot, or the plane taxied in a spot that it shouldn't have.
You know what the NTSB report will say. "A factor in the incident was the icy patch."
kevin47881
Final Approach
To that point, wouldn't the cause be; either frozen or liquid precipitation fell to, and subsequently landed, the ground. Once on the ground, said precipitation froze. Subsequent to the precipitation freezing upon the ground, an icy patch was created. The icy patch was slippery as it had a low coefficient of friction. While the airport has equipment to remove such substances, this pesky patch was incorrigible and declined removal attempts. As such, when the aircraft made contact with this incorrigible ice patch, the plane slid. While the aircraft is equipped with tyres (spelling from report) made of rubber, the rubber tires were unable to stop the aircraft.
NTSB finding: lack of coefficient of friction with regards to rubber tires and incorrigible ice patch caused aircraft to slide off taxi way.
flyingcheesehead
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To that point, wouldn't the cause be; either frozen or liquid precipitation fell to, and subsequently landed, the ground. Once on the ground, said precipitation froze. Subsequent to the precipitation freezing upon the ground, an icy patch was created. The icy patch was slippery as it had a low coefficient of friction. While the airport has equipment to remove such substances, this pesky patch was incorrigible and declined removal attempts. As such, when the aircraft made contact with this incorrigible ice patch, the plane slid. While the aircraft is equipped with tyres (spelling from report) made of rubber, the rubber tires were unable to stop the aircraft.
NTSB finding: lack of coefficient of friction with regards to rubber tires and incorrigible ice patch caused aircraft to slide off taxi way.
Are you sure you don't work for the NTSB?
wabower
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I have first-hand experience with bigger GA airplanes blowing sideways on icy ramps a couple of times. It is not a comfortable feeling, since there's nothing you can do except hope it stops. My adventures occured as we turned 90 degrees to the direction of takeoff, where the wind had a direct shot at the side of the fuselage. The diagram of this incident will be interesting to see. An F-90 on our airport had a prop strike in Detroit many years ago under similar circumstances, when one of the mains (both tires) went off in the grass sideways.
gismo
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As long as the surface is consistently slippery, you can use power and rudder to keep the airplane on the runway, albeit pointed to the side somewhat.
wabower
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The problems I described were on the taxiway. As I turned from the downwind taxiway to the short perpendicular (run-up) area, the airplane started sliding sideways. Couldn't go forward, due to hold-short line, no room to maneuver, braking was nil, couldn't get it to turn into the wind (at least not quickly enough) so I was lucky that it stopped. My friend wasn't so lucky.
kevin47881
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flyingcheesehead
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Nick,
Generally they don't go too far overboard with those. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who used to be on an accident review board for a trucking company - Accidents where the driver slid off the road were almost always charged as preventable - If the roads were that bad, you should have taken a nap and waited for them to get cleared. In this case, that means that the pilot should have simply delayed the flight until he was sure that the surfaces had a reasonable amount of traction. This is the downside of the responsibility that comes with PIC authority.
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
But Kenny, you fail to factor in the "garbage in, garbage out" factor. If the ground crew reports a certain RCR, then that is what you have to expect. If the evaluation of the surface is dated or just plain inaccurate, the decision to move the aircraft is based on bad info and the ensuing accident is still PIC's fault with ground crew being a contributing factor.
flyingcheesehead
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I'm pretty sure that the Ground controller was the busiest of all of them when I flew the other day. I'm not sure if the TRACON was consolidated or in the usual east-west split but she told me that I was the only airplane she was talking to. Ground, however, was busy! "Sander 22, drive north on runway 3, right at charlie approved."
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm not blaming the pilot, just mentioning no matter what the circumstances, the PIC chose to taxi with the information he was given. The controller could have said "loose snow on the taxiway" and that's good enough to taxi when in reality there was ice under the LS on taxiway reducing RCR to say a 3 which may not have been good enough. All I'm saying is even if you are given inaccurate info, as PIC and your hand on th tiller if the aircraft is in a mishap, it's going to be Pilot Error with other outside contributing factors. Again, the pilot may not have been at fault, but I doubt the NTSB would see it my way. That PIC moniker is a nice blanket liability title. When in doubt, it will be your fault.
...
NTSB finding: lack of coefficient of friction with regards to rubber tires and incorrigible ice patch caused aircraft to slide off taxi way.
Maybe if the captain of the jet was named Kennedy.
Midway had a similar mishap with SWA jet on Thursday.
Midway was closed due to fog on Friday PM. It was a nightmare. I was driving through it. Nothing like going on instruments on the ground.
Midway was closed due to fog on Friday PM. It was a nightmare. I was driving through it. Nothing like going on instruments on the ground.
As I read threads such as this one, I think to myself....what a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks, jailhouse lawyers, word smithers and "one uppers". I wonder why the info can't be taken a face value rather than being beaten to a pulp. My bet is that the OP wanted to share some info and not convene a board of inquiry. Just MHOP
RotorAndWing
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Greg Bockelman
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Actually this is pretty mild to the point of non Quarterbacking compared to other threads and other boards. :smile:
Good question. I think it is a form of entertainment for a lot of people.
Oh, I don't know. Knowing Mike, I kind of believe that is exactly what he was doing.
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
I think there is a fine line between MMQBing and learning. In my circle we call this hangar flying. Put yourself in the shoes of the mishap crew. What would you have done? Would you have done it the same way? Yes, it's easier to answer those questions knowing what the result of their actions were, but it can still be a learning point to see what may or may not have gone wrong. I'm sure when the official reports are published for any mishap, folk see the details and say "I never thought of that" but by just thinking about the scenario, much can be taken from the misfortune of other fellow aviators.
kevin47881
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flyingcheesehead
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Good question. I think it is a form of entertainment for a lot of people.
Y'know what the problem is? Short attention span. By the time the final NTSB report comes out, the whole thing is long forgotten. We need to start bookmarking these threads and coming back to them when the final report is out.
Of course, the NTSB never gets it wrong.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
ATIS usually gives runway and taxiway mu, if it's an issue, around these parts anyway. Interpretation is up to the PIC. When ATIS says, "Taxiway mu 35, thin patchy ice and snow...", what's that really mean, besides where they tested, traction is about 1/3 of normal? There's nothing about it in the POH of anything I've flown...so you go slow and hope you make it.
Kind of sounds like you're contradicting yourself...
Trapper John
Anthony
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Its normal for people to speculate. If we all just say, let's wait for the NTSB report WTF would there be to talk about?
RotorAndWing
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Not true. I have operated on runways and been advised that the previous aircraft reported ice at certain locations along the runway. It was up to me at that point to say I would switch runways or not use that runway.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
If that was true there would be many airports that would not operate a large part of the winter.
Greg Bockelman
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As others have said, not entirely true. I can testify first hand that does not happen at O'Hare.
kevin47881
Final Approach
I don't know. The comment seemed inclusive as opposed to general.
M
MooneyRangerGuy
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Hangar Flying, information sharing, whatever, this is a great community versus some of the other junk out there.
To add something positive to the conversation; it would be good to hear from the flight crew.
Closer to home, I experienced slippin and slidin yesterday on my way back to KUES. I was on the ramp at KUNU and nearly fell on my "can" so I suspected the runway was the same - a visual look see confirmed it and I acted accordingly. I taxied gingerly and searched for a relatively clear place to do the runup.
ATIS at KUES did not have a breaking action report but I asked the tower just to be sure.
A few days ago the ATIS and tower reported "breaking action poor" using the country plow truck - I left the bird in the hangar!
Cheers
ScottM
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