A Student Pilot's thoughts about the recent SR20 crash - Can I just "leave"?

There are occasionally a few @sshole controllers just as there are a few dumb pilots, but on the whole ATC is more than happy to help if you ask. Often they assume you are familiar with local lingo or procedures but if you're not just say so. They're almost always more than happy to help.

A lot of controllers aren't pilots so they don't always know they've just asked you to do something silly or unreasonable. If that happens just say so.
 
Great advice. One more thing - practice that plan. Even if you're not in over your head, ask permission for a delay as if you were. Get used to asking and receiving the extra time.

Great thread.
 
If you identify yourself as a student pilot, ATC will generally bend over backwards to communicate clearly and slowly with you if the situation is becoming even remotely complicated.

Otherwise, for a private pilot, an urge to flee the scene is really more indicative that you might be confused or disoriented. I'd argue that fleeing the scene isn't necessarily the best way to solve the problem. If you REALLY think that a few minutes hovering just above our outside the airspace is truly going to give you a moment of clarity, then by all means, do just that. My guess, though, is you'd be better off simply telling the ATC that you could use some assistance or clarification, a longer final, more space, slower transmissions, or otherwise rectifying whatever it is that is actually CAUSING the problem. Two heads are normally better than one, so if you confess ATC that you have an issue, and tell them exactly what's bothering you, then they have a fighting chance to help you.

Simply asking to leave the airspace may not be the silver bullet. Keep in mind, being just outside the airspace still makes you a potential hood ornament for the departing/arriving traffic. Relocating to nearby Class E won't change that. Also, you're already in the pattern, you're about 60-90 secs from being on the ground. It's a shame to undo the work collectively done by yourself and the controller by starting over with a position reset.

There might be some cases where having a few quiet moments to yourself might allow you to dig yourself out of the hole, but I'm sure there are circumstances where a truly flustered pilot would benefit tremendously from a quick situational-awareness boost from the controller, time permitting.
 
jbrinker said:
So, to the declaring of an emergency - Clearly this is to be done only when the you know what hits the fan, but if I'm really that disoriented, there's a 737 coming in and other traffic, and I'm in situation overload - I declare. Whats the repercussions for that? Say she declared for those reasons... and they moved traffic and she managed to fly it onto runway 6. What happens to her? This is one of those things Ive read about at various places - i.e. many pilots are very reluctant to declare EVEN when they really need to. Because they are not sure if they are "allowed" or are scared of the repercussions.
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As long as your emergency is not frivolous, you can make Air Force One make a go-around over a football stadium over Disneyworld while approaching Orlando Intl NORDO, and there would be no repercussions.

A few years ago I had a "should've declared" situation which ended up in no drama and continued the flight as normal - the PoA crowd gave me a good spanking. Next time I'll declare.
 
jbrinker said:
So, to the declaring of an emergency - Clearly this is to be done only when the you know what hits the fan...
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Never be afraid to declare an emergency. You are already using too many synapses solving real problems to worry about whether to get someone else's synapses working on the same problems.

You declare an emergency as soon as you have the plane under control and are still uncertain about the outcome. I have a friend who noticed his engine was overheating unexpectedly. He immediately declared an emergency even though he didn't at that moment know what was going wrong or what his options were by simply saying, "ATC approach, Bugsmasher 123 declaring emergency, standby." They immediately began clearing traffic from his flight path and began researching nearby airports where he could divert and moved traffic away from those divert paths, too. By the time my friend was sure what was wrong and what he needed to do, traffic and airports and emergency vehicles were already ready for him. ATC kept him informed what they were doing without asking him distracting questions. All he had to do was say where he intended to land and that he needed fire equipment. He landed with his engine on fire, btw, and he and family were uninjured.

Along the lines of the OP's question, there was a time when at my local very busy airport I was given two 360s for spacing on downwind once and became totally disoriented when completing the second one. I told Tower that I was disoriented and wanted to depart the airport airspace to get my bearings, and then return. No problem. I was cleared to depart and when I was ready, I came back into the airspace and pattern to land normally. Subsequently, when Tower asked me for a 360 for spacing, I'd volunteer that I'd rather slow my speed for spacing instead of a spin and that was usually OK with them.
 
mtuomi said:
As long as your emergency is not frivolous, you can make Air Force One make a go-around over a football stadium over Disneyworld while approaching Orlando Intl NORDO, and there would be no repercussions.

A few years ago I had a "should've declared" situation which ended up in no drama and continued the flight as normal - the PoA crowd gave me a good spanking. Next time I'll declare.
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Not quite.

As long as your emergency isn't fraudulent, like that asshat that asked if he could land on the beach, they said no, he came back saying "uhh my engine is running a tiny bit ruff, I'm declaring a emergency" and proceeded to land on that beach, yeah no Bueno.

But even if you're just flustered, and YOU BELEIVE things are starting to go sideways on you, by all means declare, they ain't going to come after you, I'd wager that controller in the cirrus crash would have rather had her declare, and walk her down step by step vs what actually went down.
 
James331 said:
Not quite.

As long as your emergency isn't fraudulent, like that asshat that asked if he could land on the beach, they said no, he came back saying "uhh my engine is running a tiny bit ruff, I'm declaring a emergency" and proceeded to land on that beach, yeah no Bueno.

But even if you're just flustered, and YOU BELEIVE things are starting to go sideways on you, by all means declare, they ain't going to come after you, I'd wager that controller in the cirrus crash would have rather had her declare, and walk her down step by step vs what actually went down.
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Yep...and honestly @mtuomi I think that people are too afraid of certificate action to declare. That's why I posted that link to the FAA document on it. They WANT you to declare when you think you need to and not be afraid of getting spanked for doing so.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yep...and honestly @mtuomi I think that people are too afraid of certificate action to declare. That's why I posted that link to the FAA document on it. They WANT you to declare when you think you need to and not be afraid of getting spanked for doing so.
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I've declared two emergencies I recall (may have been a third one - interestingly both of the ones I remember were in 310s). No enforcement action (or even call from the FAA) on either.
 
From the other side of the tapes, so to speak - one thing I learned when a controller from NY Tracon visited our flying club a couple years ago was that they average 1 - 2 emergencies per day. They are very used to it, so do not hesitate for one second if the situation arises.
 
My record as a controller was 9 emergencies within 1 hour! I was working Eglin AFB and Tyndall AFB had one of their two parallel runways closed, then an F4 or F15 blew a tire landing on the other runway closeing that one. We already had a busy workload going on with our jets and then all Tyndall's jets diverted to Eglin. A couple had hot brakes, a few had hung weapons, and 1 or 2 emergency fuel situations. It was busy as heck but fun.
 
BigBadLou said:
Yes, I remember that idiot. The biggest retard in an airplane that I can remember. He makes us look bad as a whole. But then again, he makes all us others look professional. :)
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I'm not a professional and didn't stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do have some experience in the family. It sounded to me like the guy was in the manic phase of Bipolar Disease. But... :dunno:

-Skip
 
jbrinker said:
After reading most of the comments in the ginormous SR20 crash thread, it seems like the pilot likely got overwhelmed at the very least. Fuel exhaustion may also have been an issue, and that may directly follow from being overwhelmed.

As a low time student (25hrs), ready to solo, and having been "behind" a few times (well more than a few...) during training I understand how this can happen. Especially when in controlled airspace and being given instructions that may be unclear, or not correctly understood. Combined with loss of situational awareness, and/or disorientation - and I can see how this could happen.

Suppose as a post-solo student I'm flying my solo XC (or heck, just a low-time PPL heading to a new controlled airport) and I get into a similar situation. Big airport, un-cooperating winds, a few go-arounds, and then I become confused/frustrated. Is it OK to just "fly away" and what is the best, clearest, easiest way to communicate that intention to ATC?

Aviate, navigate, communicate... I know. But when in controlled airspace, whats the clear call to make (short of declaring an emergency)?

Something like "podunk tower, bugsmasher 1234, student pilot, I'm unclear on instructions and request vector to somewhere safe to get my bearings"

Thoughts? This seems like something that perhaps a student/low time could think about ahead of time and maybe rehearse mentally so as to know how to address a confused/disoriented situation.
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Absolutely you can pop out... YOU are the one ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

This pilot had another QUIET, towered field with big runways 7 miles southeast (KEFD)... and an untowered field 6 miles south of Hobby as well. Both would have been reasonable drives for ground transportation. Additionally there were other decent sized towered and untowered fields within 45 minutes of the central business district of Houston. Most of these have runways that were reasonably aligned with the prevailing winds.

My armchair qb view on this is there was an element of get-there-itis...Fixated on landing at THAT ONE PLACE... and she was behind the plane, in the middle of a push, in a busy class B field. My other observation is there was no post crash fire and the fuel tanks, while ruptured, were found empty by the NTSB investigator. Maybe she ran out.. maybe what was left evaporated... but. in any event.. pay attention and dont run out of fuel... its an easy mistake to make, but not a forgiving one.

I also think that ever since the Houston Class B was revised to accommodate the 3rd parallel at IAH, and primary (and calm wind) runway shifted at Hobby from 12R to 04, that this created the circumstances that contributed to this mishap. GA cannot be offered LAHSO (Land and Hold Short) anymore, so with Hobby landing 04, the only "workable" second runway assignment they could offer (without an emergency) during the push was right traffic for 35. Which gave her a quartering 15-20 knot tailwind. In the old days they would bring primary traffic flow down the ILS for 12R (or with north winds then down the ILS for 30L) and sidestep the little guys who were VFR onto the parallel, and if they went missed, did closed traffic for a second shot at the parallel. I'm not blaming ATC... but the redesign factored into the process that ended up offering this pilot a downwind landing. She was behind the plane, but this didn't help. And ATC cant be PIC for you...

Re: Emergency.. If by your calculations, you are below your fuel reserve minimums, you can choose to declare an emergency. You can declare an emergency even if fuel isn't low. You can declare an emergency any time you want, but you will also be expected to answer for it as well. If its a ******** reason (going to be late for dinner.. etc) of course it wont be looked on favorably. But if you have any doubt IF its a genuine emergency, then declare, get on the ground and figure it out later. Dont be a smoking hole in the ground because you are afraid of a possible post-flight critique.... Finally... Not all class B's allow students.. and if they do, they require a logbook endorsement from your CFI.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You absolutely can just leave, and you should do so if you're in a bad spot. Generally, if you've had to do a second try, that's ok. If you have to do a third try... you should be going elsewhere. As she proved, third time is not always the charm.

I saw posts that she was "experienced" because she had 400 hours in the plane. I've seen plenty of people who have 400 hours in type and still lack stick and rudder skills.
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I work with "experienced" people who have worked in their field 20 years. Sadly some of them dont have twenty years of progressive experience. They have the same year repeated 20 times..
 
James331 said:
Just let the tower know what you need, all else fails, declare and emergency and just TELL THEM what you're doing AS you're doing it.

"Tower, cessna 123, we'd like to exit your airspace to the east"

Or if it's a Delta airport, "tower cessna 123 would like to exit your airspace vertically" hang out over top for a while

All else fails, if you're REALLY behind that plane, just do whatever you need to do to keep safe.
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This cannot be stressed enough, even for very experienced pilots. In the moment, YOU are in command. ATC works for you, not the other way around. If they give you any crap, don't be shy about declaring. You can always end the emergency after you get what you need and are in a safe/controlled place.
 
coma24 said:
If you identify yourself as a student pilot, ATC will generally bend over backwards to communicate clearly and slowly with you if the situation is becoming even remotely complicated.

Otherwise, for a private pilot, an urge to flee the scene is really more indicative that you might be confused or disoriented. I'd argue that fleeing the scene isn't necessarily the best way to solve the problem. If you REALLY think that a few minutes hovering just above our outside the airspace is truly going to give you a moment of clarity, then by all means, do just that. My guess, though, is you'd be better off simply telling the ATC that you could use some assistance or clarification, a longer final, more space, slower transmissions, or otherwise rectifying whatever it is that is actually CAUSING the problem. Two heads are normally better than one, so if you confess ATC that you have an issue, and tell them exactly what's bothering you, then they have a fighting chance to help you.

Simply asking to leave the airspace may not be the silver bullet. Keep in mind, being just outside the airspace still makes you a potential hood ornament for the departing/arriving traffic. Relocating to nearby Class E won't change that. Also, you're already in the pattern, you're about 60-90 secs from being on the ground. It's a shame to undo the work collectively done by yourself and the controller by starting over with a position reset.

There might be some cases where having a few quiet moments to yourself might allow you to dig yourself out of the hole, but I'm sure there are circumstances where a truly flustered pilot would benefit tremendously from a quick situational-awareness boost from the controller, time permitting.
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I disagree rather thoroughly.

Things happen close in to an airport at rates higher than anywhere else. There is much less density of traffic even 1000 feet up.

Getting behind the airplane means things are happening too fast. Deliberately climb to higher altitude, out of the way of traffic, and collect yourself. Then move on.

It becomes much more important in the context of instrument approaches, but it is clearly a factor in visual approaches and landings as well.

The one thing that you can't do is panic. But getting out of there with deliberate speed is entirely called for.
 
jbrinker said:
So, to the declaring of an emergency - Clearly this is to be done only when the you know what hits the fan, but if I'm really that disoriented, there's a 737 coming in and other traffic, and I'm in situation overload - I declare. Whats the repercussions for that? Say she declared for those reasons... and they moved traffic and she managed to fly it onto runway 6. What happens to her? This is one of those things Ive read about at various places - i.e. many pilots are very reluctant to declare EVEN when they really need to. Because they are not sure if they are "allowed" or are scared of the repercussions.
Click to expand...

Never hesitate to use the E word. Controller's operate with their hands tied by regulations...there are some things that they cannot offer without pilot request. Once an emergency has been declared the handcuffs come off and ATC is free to severely twist if not break those ties in order to get you on the ground safely. Never hesitate to use the E word (BTDT). No repercussions in my experience.

Bob Gardner
 
Mostly true Bob, but controllers can and have declared emergencies.
 
OP here, I've just re-read all these comments, and I have to say this has turned into one very useful thread for me (a student pilot) and I think probably for a lot of PPL in general (especially since a lot of pilots don't fly all the frequently). I have found so far in my training that thinking about situations while on the ground (chair flying as it were) really helps a lot when things do go sideways for me. Believe me, I have thought about this particular situation on both my last two lessons, and I would now know what to do and have thought about it ahead of time. (And not be the slightest bit scared to use the E word if I have to).

I'm sure a lot of the POA students read this forum too, but I wonder if I shouldn't have posted this over there. (Maybe an admin would like to add it to an FAQ list or something?)

A shining example of all the great folks (and knowledge/experience) on POA. (And it even stayed pretty much on topic!)
Thanks everyone!
 
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