A stage check with no flying....

[inav8r]

After the episode with the lost Airworthiness Certificate I was *sure* we had all of the required AROW documents in our planes ... however there's more to the story!

Saturday was to be my stage check with the DPE that I selected for my check ride. At the onset of the stage check I asked if he wanted me to bring in the AROW documents from the airplane and he said he'd rather just check them when we get out there so as we don't misplace them...

He checked all of my paperwork, took my check and then we started the oral. I feel I did pretty well other than I totally spaced on a couple of topics - and I had no idea that you HAD to know anything about millibars...

I feel the oral portion went well. No real surprises other than the millibar thing. I did goof up an airport symbol (Star for rotating beacon) and he challenged me on student pilots landing at Class B primary airports. I said they could with logged training and an endorsement for the specific class B, and he said they could only land at satellite airports inside the Bravo. I looked it up in the FARs and sure enough there's a specific list of airports where they can't - but with proper logged training and endorsements they can land at the primary airports in Class B that aren't listed.

After we finished the oral portion we moved out to the airplane to inspect the documents. I found our brand new airworthiness certificate, and a registration card in their proper place and of course the POH and other required documents that go with it. He looked that the registration card for about 2 seconds and said "This is the wrong one, I need the one from the FAA".... My heart sank. The registration card I had given him was the "Indiana Certificate of Registration" - which basically shows that we'd registered it with the state and had paid property taxes on it, but it wasn't good enough to fly on...

I dug thru the log books, the POH, the glove box, the cargo area and couldn't find it... I was pretty upset because *I* didn't realize there were *TWO* registrations.

After a few minutes I'd determined that I wasn't going to be able to find it and he packed up and left. I never did get any feedback from him on how I did with the oral. I'm going to ask him about that tonight when I let him know the status on the temporary registration.

I called the FAA Registration department about 1 minute before they opened this morning and talked with a very very nice young lady who said if we faxed her our written request this morning she'd fax one of our club officers a temporary certificate that would be good for 30 days by the end of today. We then just have to send that written request and a $2 payment in the mail and they'd send us a new one. I then called our club Treasurer (my instructor) and he said he'd FAX the request to OK this morning before lunch and put the request in the mail on the way home from work. At least we'll be able to fly the plane again tonight!

I need to call the DPE and ask if the 30 day temporary will be good enough for my check ride scheduled this Saturday.

Saturday turned out to be a pretty emotional day for me....

 

[SkyHog]

man - that sucks. At least you can get the temporary tho.

Jeez....I feel so bad for you man - good luck!

 

[poadeleted20]

Sounds like your instructor(s) let you down on this one. They should have shown you the right paper very early in your training. Fact is that the Indiana paper is not required to fly, and the FAA couldn't care less about it, but the airplane is quite grounded until an FAA Registration document is in the plane. Note that they can fax you a temp, and it's good for anything except international flight -- you don't have to wait for the permanent for your flying or your practical test.

And, BTW, the Airworthiness Certificate must be "displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew," and the seat back won't qualify for that. Most planes have some sort of clear document holder in a fairly visible location for the AC. You can have the other AROW documents in the seat back, but not the AC.

Later edit: I see you edited your original post to eliminate the confusion about the seat back, but I'll leave the info in just in case someone out there isn't as familiar with the rule as he should be, and data suggests that having the AC not visible is one of the Top 10 on the Ramp Check Hit Parade.

 

[inav8r]

And, BTW, the seat back is not an acceptable location for the Airworthiness Certificate. It must be "displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew," and the seat back won't qualify for that. Most planes have some sort of clear document holder in a fairly visible location for the AC. You can have the other AROW documents in the seat back, but not the AC.

The Airworthiness Certificate is displayed in the clear document holder that you mention. Per our rules the registration certificate(s) are to be in that holder behind the airworthiness certificate.

The Operating Handbook and "other documents" go in the seat back. Our PoH is in an original old cessna provided 3 ring binder (3 ring circus when it comes open).

 

[grattonja]

Mike,

I may be out of line, and feel free to tell me so. But, I am starting to be concerned about this plane and flying club, based on what you have told us so far on the board. Knowing this plane is going to be used for a PP test, they let this bird go up without two of the obviously required documents. Moreover, these documents have been awol from the plane for some time. To the point that no-one knows where they are. That is a serious deficiency IMHO. A ramp check at any time would have brought action against both the club and whoever rented this plane.

In my experience in life, if something obvious is wrong, usually various other obvious and not so obvious things are. Were I in your shoes, I would be parsing the logs right now, with the mechanic, and asking some pointed questions about the annual, AD compliance, ELT check, etc. Again, I might be really off base, feel free to tell me so. Were I the DE, with this having happened, I would scrutinize the paperwork for everything on this plane now. DEs on here please chime in, but it is my understanding that, if a deficiency in the pilot OR the equipment is found, that is considered an area for fair game digging.

I just know, based on what you have said so far, the hair on the back of my neck has raised.

Sorry for your frustration. We on here can all sympathize with it and feel it. Nothing like being ready to go and not being able to go because of something stupid.

Jim G

 

[bstratt]

And, BTW, the seat back is not an acceptable location for the Airworthiness Certificate. It must be "displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew," and the seat back won't qualify for that. Most planes have some sort of clear document holder in a fairly visible location for the AC. You can have the other AROW documents in the seat back, but not the AC.

Our Registration and Airworthiness are in a clear plastic display holder, but it is riveted to the back wall of the baggage area under the hat shelf. A passenger could turn around and see it but its out of view when facing forward. It's never come up in an annual or other inspection.

 

[poadeleted20]

BTW, here's a nice mnemonic for remembering what inspections have to be done:

AV1ATE

Annual
VOR check (IFR only)
100-hour inspection (for hire/commercial flight instruction)
Altimeter/static system (IFR only)
Transponder
ELT (battery and operation -- two checks really, but who would remember "aviatebo"?)

Ron

 

[inav8r]

I just know, based on what you have said so far, the hair on the back of my neck has raised.

We have a set and fairly limited number of people in our club and each person is an owner. I know all of the members who fly personally (we have a few who continue their membership, but do not actively fly (and before you say it, the club does have currency rules)). I honestly feel it was a simple mistake.

While I can't speak for anyone else, I do feel I have a stake in making things right for everyone in our club, and I do plan to take steps to make sure incidents like this don't happen to anyone else.

 

[gismo]

Our Registration and Airworthiness are in a clear plastic display holder, but it is riveted to the back wall of the baggage area under the hat shelf. A passenger could turn around and see it but its out of view when facing forward. It's never come up in an annual or other inspection.

That's quite common and AFaIK perfectly acceptable for part 91 aircraft. FAR 91.203 only requires that the certificate be legible to passengers or crew. Without pursuing whether the or between pax and crew means only one of them must be able to see the cert, I think it's pretty clear that there's no requirement that it must be seen when facing forward.

 

[grattonja]

We have a set and fairly limited number of people in our club and each person is an owner. I know all of the members who fly personally (we have a few who continue their membership, but do not actively fly (and before you say it, the club does have currency rules)). I honestly feel it was a simple mistake.

While I can't speak for anyone else, I do feel I have a stake in making things right for everyone in our club, and I do plan to take steps to make sure incidents like this don't happen to anyone else.

I definitely did not mean any offense by my post yesterday. I hope you took none, and I do apologize if you did. I think it is great that you are taking steps to correct the problems that you are finding. That is a good step towards making sure the plane is, and will remain, legal. Is the mechanic a club member as well? S/he is someone that I would definitely want to talk to. Either way. I find a lot of security in sitting down with the person that does annuals/100 hours and asking lots of questions. I would recommend that for you. That way you can learn more about AD compliance and also make sure that there are no other surprises in your near future.

Hey, look at it this way. When you finally take your test you will knock one out of the park

Jim G

 

[inav8r]

I definitely did not mean any offense by my post yesterday.

None taken. I realize it's hard for me to explain the whole situation so that the gentle reader has a completely clear picture. Add to the fact that I'm a student and I often misunderstand the best way to explain things it makes it even worse. I think your post was spot on with the understanding that you had. With the understanding that I have I feel that it isn't necessarily so.

If I felt for one minute there was funny business going on, I would run and run away very fast!

Is the mechanic a club member as well? S/he is someone that I would definitely want to talk to. Either way. I find a lot of security in sitting down with the person that does annuals/100 hours and asking lots of questions. I would recommend that for you. That way you can learn more about AD compliance and also make sure that there are no other surprises in your near future.

No, the IA works for the FBO at the airport where we are based. I've been personal fiends with the him for a little over 3 years now and I trust him, quite a lot, in fact. We've had lots of discussions on the plans I fly now as well as the rental aircraft that I used to fly when I rented from the FBO.

Hey, look at it this way. When you finally take your test you will knock one out of the park

Jim G

I sure hope so!

Now that we have the temporary certificate in the aircraft I've confirmed my check ride with the DE for this Saturday. I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes after it happens (assuming we have good weather!).

 

[poadeleted3]

snip
Now that we have the temporary certificate in the aircraft I've confirmed my check ride with the DE for this Saturday. I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes after it happens (assuming we have good weather!).

If I were you, just for peace of mind and prevent unnecesary worry, I'd have your instructor crawl through the aircraft, it's paperwork, and the log books with a fine tooth comb before Saturday. Also, your logbook, and double check all the endorsements, etc. That way, you'll have one less thing to be nervous about Friday night

Good luck, and try to have fun!!

 

[Anthony]

Why I theoretically knew the maintenance intervals of the planes I trained in (three different 152's, in which you'd scheduele the one available), my instructor never had me look at maintenance logs. The first thing the DE does on my checkride is ask to see the logs and then begins to grill me for over an hour. He has me looking through the logs searching for ELT battery inspections and whatever else he can think of. I was scrambling, doing something I totally did not expect, nor prepare. I think Joe has a good ideas.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

If I were you, just for peace of mind and prevent unnecesary worry, I'd have your instructor crawl through the aircraft, it's paperwork, and the log books with a fine tooth comb before Saturday. Also, your logbook, and double check all the endorsements, etc. That way, you'll have one less thing to be nervous about Friday night

Good luck, and try to have fun!!

a. The CFI should do this without prompting.
b. Take it one step further and while reviewing with the CFI stuff "Post-It" flags on each page with a notation for whatever item that flag marks (i.e. "Annual Inspection", "ELT", Static/Altimeter/Transponder, AD compliance list, etc.)

Doing "b" will pretty much shut down the aircraft records section of the oral. The DE will see the flags, correlate what they mean after the first question, and then move on to another topic.

 

[Brian Austin]

Doing "b" will pretty much shut down the aircraft records section of the oral. The DE will see the flags, correlate what they mean after the first question, and then move on to another topic.

And that is exactly what my CFI and I did the day before my checkride...and you're right: one question, a glance to the tabs and that topic was done.

 

[inav8r]

Yep! My instructor and I went through our log books about a week ago. The DE went through them pretty thoroughly as well last Saturday. The sticky notes are still in place in case he wants to see them again this Saturday. =)

Also the DE already went over my 8710 and checked my log book - while I realize it's fair game to do again I already know the log books for the aircraft (and inspections required) as well as my log book checks out! One less thing to worry about this Saturday.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but when I was on the phone re-scheduling with the DE, just about as we were getting ready to hang up I asked him if I needed to do a new flight plan to which he replied, "Oh, yea I forgot! You do." He then preceded to give me new parameters for a different flight plan. If only I would have kept my mouth shut...