A simple solution

[cgrab]

I've read a lot about aircraft accidents and find the skid-stall-spin to be the most talked about. This accident happens when a pilot tries to tighten the turn to final to lineup with the runway with rudder and gets in trouble. I traced the accident path back to where it could be prevented and came to the following conclusion: We are taught to start our landing at the downwind numbers by reducing power and adding flaps followed by a turn starting when the touchdown is 45 degrees behind us. We roll out on final (if all goes right) at the same distance from the touchdown as we were when we began our turn. Unfortunately for those who miscalculated, that isn't always the case.

My solution is to delay the start of the landing until the touchdown point is at the 45 degrees behind us. That gives us more time on final to adjust heading. The consequence is we would also need to adjust the throttle setting for a decent so we still make it to the touchdown point.

I've been doing it in my Cardinal and I roll out with three red lights on the PAPI but pick up the second green rather quickly. In crosswinds I roll out using the same visuals as no wind and have plenty of time to adjust to the runway. I think this is a key safety factor.

What do you think?

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

That's a good common sense approach. I think a lot of pilots get caught out by a crosswind that blows them closer to the runway on downwind. A little extra vigilance to remain parallel to the runway here would go a long way toward reducing stall/spins.

 

[RyanB]

Interesting food for thought. My rebuttal brings the idea back up that the pilot should be able to land the airplane from any leg of the traffic pattern, especially at a towered field where they may not have the luxury of performing a simple downwind, base, final approach and landing. If they're not competent to do so, then they'll be caught off guard when their routine set up gets thrown out of whack. Nonetheless it just boils down to staying coordinated and watching what you're doing.

 

[mscard88]

An ex-Air Force IP I recently checked out in the Arrow would make the beginning of base turn to final one shallow turn. I liked it and asked about it. He said that's how the Air Force taught it in pilot training. One just adjusts the bank angle to line up but you remain inside the base to final arc.

I now teach it to my students vs squaring base to final.

 

[luvflyin]

Interesting food for thought. My rebuttal brings the idea back up that the pilot should be able to land the airplane from any leg of the traffic pattern, especially at a towered field where they may not have the luxury of performing a simple downwind, base, final approach and landing. If they're not competent to do so, then they'll be caught off guard when their routine set up gets thrown out of whack. Nonetheless it just boils down to staying coordinated and watching what you're doing.

^^^^This. Doing the pattern by 'rote' is ok up to a point, but you have to be able to adjust to conditions and traffic.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Interesting food for thought. My rebuttal brings the idea back up that the pilot should be able to land the airplane from any leg of the traffic pattern, especially at a towered field where they may not have the luxury of performing a simple downwind, base, final approach and landing. If they're not competent to do so, then they'll be caught off guard when their routine set up gets thrown out of whack. Nonetheless it just boils down to staying coordinated and watching what you're doing.

Sure, when you have some experience under your belt. Low-time pilots should gain that experience a small chunk at a time and stick to the basics. Once the basics are mastered, take on short approaches, etc.

Don't get forced into to something way out of your comfort zone. "Unable" is your best friend.

 

[eman1200]

dare I say, "just don't overshoot"?
and if you do, don't do what we're all taught not to do to correct it?

 

[Tantalum]

I find "ball discipline" to be lacking in some pilots, and not focused on that greatly in training. My ball discipline didn't get better until my instrument training where we did a lot of partial panel stuff flying strictly by reference to the turn coordinator, compass, and altimeter.. that really forced me to "step on the ball"

I've flown safety for enough people now where it seems like keeping the ball centered and actually *using* the rudder is not second nature. People are taught to manage their airspeed and energy, and that's great.. but keeping that ball centered is life. Even if you do stall then with a centered ball the stall is far less likely to turn into a spin

I hate to "backseat fly" but there have been times when I'm in the right seat (safety or not) and give a gentle "watch the ball" when we're turning and maneuvering in the pattern. The skidding turns are the worst, since your inside wing already has a lower airspeed, and now in the skid the airflow relative to it, plus with the fuselage blocking it, gets really impacted. Would be kind of interesting to have two AoAs, one on each wing, and see just how close people get to their critical AoA on one of their wings on a routine basis

 

[cgrab]

Another thing I've found in using this technique is that I don't go around as much. In the past when I rolled out "out of place" I had to decide if I was going to "save" the landing or go around. Most of the time, it was an easy adjustment to get back on track-after I misjudged the cross wind or started the turn at the wrong spot or didn't make a perfect turn-but sometimes I just went around. Now I have more time to make the adjustment and make the landing.

 

[1RTK1]

My old instructor used to ask me when I over shot final what I was thinking, my response, practicing my S turns

 

[RyanB]

Sure, when you have some experience under your belt. Low-time pilots should gain that experience a small chunk at a time and stick to the basics. Once the basics are mastered, take on short approaches, etc.

Don't get forced into to something way out of your comfort zone. "Unable" is your best friend.

I agree to an extent, but if all the low time guys just repetitiously do the same downwind, base, final stuff all the time, how will they ever learn to think outside of the box? Heck, I’m a low time pilot but I figured this out pretty early on.

 

[Tantalum]

the pilot should be able to land the airplane from any leg of the traffic pattern

^^^^This. Doing the pattern by 'rote' is ok up to a point, but you have to be able to adjust to conditions and traffic.

Add me to that camp. Yes, the "overfly the pattern then enter on a 45 degree downwind" is textbook, and works fine at an uncontrolled field, etc., but what happens when you are flying to a controlled airport and they tell you to fly straight in.. etc. I've also flown with people where tower says "extend downwind" and people start initiating a descent abeam the numbers.. dude, what are you doing? We're flying away from the airport, keep that altitude. Also,

This ATC exchange below is a good example I think of a pilot who was only trained by "rote" knowledge. I blame this guy's instructor.. you can see here that the student *only* knew how to do the whole "45 left downwind" thing. I don't blame ATC for getting upset, it's the instructor who should have better prepped his student, or thrown a few curve balls at him pre solo

 

[FlySince9]

It all comes down to a mindset... RUDDER DOES NOT TURN THE AIRPLANE!!!!

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

I agree to an extent, but if all the low time guys just repetitiously do the same downwind, base, final stuff all the time, how will they ever learn to think outside of the box? Heck, I’m a low time pilot but I figured this out pretty early on.

That's why I said master the basics first, then put a little more on your plate.

 

[wanttaja]

I've read a lot about aircraft accidents and find the skid-stall-spin to be the most talked about.

Most talked about, but in the homebuilt world at least, not the phase with the most stall-spin accidents where there are no issues with engine power. Base-to-Final percentage is half the takeoff and initial climb stalls. Doubt the production-aircraft world is that different.

.... I traced the accident path back to where it could be prevented and came to the following conclusion: We are taught to start our landing at the downwind numbers by reducing power and adding flaps followed by a turn starting when the touchdown is 45 degrees behind us. We roll out on final (if all goes right) at the same distance from the touchdown as we were when we began our turn. Unfortunately for those who miscalculated, that isn't always the case.

My solution is to delay the start of the landing until the touchdown point is at the 45 degrees behind us. That gives us more time on final to adjust heading. The consequence is we would also need to adjust the throttle setting for a decent so we still make it to the touchdown point.

I'm not quite understanding the difference. It sounds like the downwind-to-base turn is performed at the same point: 45 degrees to the runway. Or did you mean that the turn should be delayed until the flaps and gear are down, etc? Basically, to perform the turn at the ~60 degree point vs. the 45 degree point?

I've been doing it in my Cardinal and I roll out with three red lights on the PAPI but pick up the second green rather quickly.

Fine if you've got an airplane that glides, but a bit tough on us slow, draggy types. And our airplanes.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tantalum]

Heck, I’m a low time pilot

What do you guys consider low time? <100 hrs, <300hrs, <500hrs, <2,000hrs

Does how often you fly matter? What if you have 200 hrs / yr. VS 900 hrs the last 20 years?

 

[j1b3h0]

Left to my own devices, I start the turn to the runway abeam the approach-end numbers, as mentioned about the Air Force technique. Why it it that everyone in a 172 flys a pattern the size of a United heavy? Military pilots routinely enter the break at >250kts and are touching down seconds after they begin the break. Yeah, I cut my students a little slack, but they eventually get the picture - flying downwind past the approach of the runway is the WRONG direction. I’ll keep giving them engine failures (whenever they get far from the runway) until they get the picture.

 

[FlySince9]

Base-to-Final percentage is half the takeoff and initial climb stalls

I'll bet a lot of that is because of impossible turn attempts... but the Base to Final incidents, I would argue, is about crashing a perfectly functioning airplane, rather than attempting a likely unpracticed/mastered maneuver, under the pressure of a failed engine.

 

[wanttaja]

I'll bet a lot of that is because of impossible turn attempts... but the Base to Final incidents, I would argue, is about crashing a perfectly functioning airplane, rather than attempting a likely unpracticed/mastered maneuver, under the pressure of a failed engine.

The diagram includes ONLY cases where there were no issues with the engine, as I said in the text. The diagram itself says it includes only cases where the aircraft was fully operational. The Impossible Turn doesn't enter into it.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[FlySince9]

The diagram includes ONLY cases where there were no issues with the engine, as I said in the text. The diagram itself says it includes only cases where the aircraft was fully operational. The Impossible Turn doesn't enter into it.

Ron Wanttaja

missed that, sorry...

 

[Lachlan]

Now that I’m flying in/out of a grass field with trees at both ends, I find myself making a descending 180 rather than two 90s for downwind to base and base to final. I can see the runway sooner don’t have to turn as steep, which helps when low over the trees.

 

[RyanB]

What do you guys consider low time? <100 hrs, <300hrs, <500hrs, <2,000hrs

Does how often you fly matter? What if you have 200 hrs / yr. VS 900 hrs the last 20 years?

Sub 500hrs

 

[steingar]

Of course, the other thing is to keep your speed up and bleed it off on final. If I can do it in a Mooney you can do it in your aircraft.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

1) Who cares if you aren't lined up with the runway. If there is a parallel runway, turn early. Otherwise, if you are going to overshoot, overshoot. No big deal. No need to do something stupid for style points.
2) Contrary to what seems to be taught currently, keeping the bank angle shallow does not keep you from stalling. Stall speed goes up when you pull, not when you roll. It's OK to roll, not OK to pull.

Remove the perceived need to try and tighten the turn.
Remove the perceived need to horse it around with rudder and elevator instead of bank if you do turn.
Problem solved.

 

[cgrab]

I'm not quite understanding the difference. It sounds like the downwind-to-base turn is performed at the same point: 45 degrees to the runway. Or did you mean that the turn should be delayed until the flaps and gear are down, etc? Basically, to perform the turn at the ~60 degree point vs. the 45 degree point?

Sorry if I wasn't clear but I mean to start the decent and add flaps at the 45 degree mark and make the turn when the decent is established-for me about 5 seconds. So yes, 60 degrees is about right.

I know it is going farther away from the runway and I know an engine failure would be bad away from the airport but stalls spins are worse than engine failure no matter where you are.

 

[Tantalum]

I know it is going farther away from the runway and I know an engine failure would be bad away from the airport but stalls spins are worse than engine failure no matter where you are.

Whatever works for you. If you can keep your airspeed appropriate and the ball centered you should be able to pull the power abeam the numbers and do a short approach and landing no problem as well

Methodical procedures can help, but it's important to know why these accidents happen.. it really just comes down to people not watching their speed and coordination. I almost feel that modifying your pattern and flight behavior is just covering up the symptom without actually solving the problem of coordination and airspeed. Who's to say that somebody turning at the 60 degree mark with flaps and already descending won't also stall and spin. If you are not good at airspeed management and coordination then they'll just stall and spin while descending with flaps out further away from the airport

 

[Kansas Flyer]

An ex-Air Force IP I recently checked out in the Arrow would make the beginning of base turn to final one shallow turn. I liked it and asked about it. He said that's how the Air Force taught it in pilot training. One just adjusts the bank angle to line up but you remain inside the base to final arc.

I now teach it to my students vs squaring base to final.

I do this frequently and I think it makes for a simpler approach. One thing I do if i'm flying a low wing though is pause my turn for a second in the middle of the curve and dip the outside wing to check for anyone making an unannounced straight in.

 

[Warlock]

Base to final for me is always a continuous 180 degree turn...and tight...not much difference between power on or power off and never understood square 747 patterns for GA unless at ATC direction...

 

[mscard88]

I do this frequently and I think it makes for a simpler approach. One thing I do if i'm flying a low wing though is pause my turn for a second in the middle of the curve and dip the outside wing to check for anyone making an unannounced straight in.

Yes. Agree with rolling out momentary to check for traffic and do teach it that way also.

 

[MauleSkinner]

My old instructor used to ask me when I over shot final what I was thinking, my response, practicing my S turns

To which his response should (IMO) have been,"OK, now let's go practice some rectangular patterns, because those are obviously a weak point."

 

[1RTK1]

To which his response should (IMO) have been,"OK, now let's go practice some rectangular patterns, because those are obviously a weak point."

It didn't happen that frequently, lol He was a really cool and good instructor that I meshed well with. He was always pushing me and distracting me at the same time. I now appreciate that a lot more than at the time, doing my instrument training with him too.

 

[woodchucker]

Base to final for me is always a continuous 180 degree turn...and tight...not much difference between power on or power off and never understood square 747 patterns for GA unless at ATC direction...

Well, it’s a fairly standard way of teaching new pilots. I found it helpful in getting the landings set up consistently, and I think consistency is important for people first learning.

Another reason I suppose is for spacing at a busy training field with 3 or 4 planes in the pattern.

But outside that, I agree, normal point A to B flying rarely requires one mile extended downwind legs.

 

[Warmi]

Practice every landing without power, with very tight patterns , preferably with your airspeed indicator covered , and you will be unlikely to stall, even under stress and workload ...

We used to do this type of flying all the time with my instructor...

 

[Warlock]

Being a military helicopter pilot first at a time where 80% of your training landings were power off...transferred to tight patterns...it is amazing the similarity to a UH-1H / AH-1 in autorotation ( its a dream compared to most modern Helicopters) and a Hershey Bar wing Arrow except at the bottom...one is good and the other wish there was more
And slower...

 

[OkieFlyer]

1) Who cares if you aren't lined up with the runway. If there is a parallel runway, turn early. Otherwise, if you are going to overshoot, overshoot. No big deal. No need to do something stupid for style points.
2) Contrary to what seems to be taught currently, keeping the bank angle shallow does not keep you from stalling. Stall speed goes up when you pull, not when you roll. It's OK to roll, not OK to pull.

Remove the perceived need to try and tighten the turn.
Remove the perceived need to horse it around with rudder and elevator instead of bank if you do turn.
Problem solved.

I agree with you mostly, however, your statement that stall speed doesn't go up when you roll is false.

From my C182 POH:

I doubt many would consider banking 60° turning to final, but 45°is fairly likely in the even of an overshoot. In that case stall speed goes up about 10 mph in my airplane.

 

[Warmi]

That’s applicable if you attempt to maintain your current altitude ( in other words if you load the wings ) ....

 

[1RTK1]

That’s applicable if you attempt to maintain your current altitude ( in other words if you load the wings ) ....

Bingo, if the wings aren’t loaded or are unloaded, the stall speed does not go up as in level flight.

 

[MD11Pilot]

“We are taught to start our landing at the downwind numbers by reducing power and adding flaps followed by a turn starting when the touchdown is 45 degrees behind us. We roll out on final (if all goes right) at the same distance from the touchdown as we were when we began our turn. Unfortunately for those who miscalculated, that isn't always the case.

My solution is to delay the start of the landing until the touchdown point is at the 45 degrees behind us.”

I am having reading comprehension problems with your above statement as they, to me, sounds exactly alike. This is the way I used to teach but the one thing that throws a wrench into the equation is ATC, traffic etc. This is all part of learning to fly and a good instructor should ensure mastery prior to a check ride. Think

 

[Hank S]

My primary instructor used to tell me often, "if you overshoot final, just fly it back or go around. Don't steepen your bank." Just did that yesterday, the crosswind blew me almost to the taxiway but I just held my turn longer until I was aimed at the runway, straightened out and had a nice, normal landing. If I'm so far over that it's hard to get back in time at the same bank angle and descent rate, then I go around and pay more attention to the wind the next time.

It's not a runway length thing. Be in position by short final. I learned on a 3000' field, and am now based at a 3150' field. YMMV, etc.

 

[AKBill]

An ex-Air Force IP I recently checked out in the Arrow would make the beginning of base turn to final one shallow turn. I liked it and asked about it. He said that's how the Air Force taught it in pilot training. One just adjusts the bank angle to line up but you remain inside the base to final arc.

I now teach it to my students vs squaring base to final.

Personally I like this type of pattern

Add me to that camp. Yes, the "overfly the pattern then enter on a 45 degree downwind" is textbook, and works fine at an uncontrolled field, etc., but what happens when you are flying to a controlled airport and they tell you to fly straight in.. etc. I've also flown with people where tower says "extend downwind" and people start initiating a descent abeam the numbers.. dude, what are you doing? We're flying away from the airport, keep that altitude. Also,

Agreed as PIC you should be able to handle different types of approaches. Not just the typical rectangular, by the numbers pattern.