"A Sacred Cow in the Cockpit" by Pearlstein

[woodstock]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/20/AR2008032003525.html

This should get some dander up. Read the comments. I usually have learned a lot from this guy, he deserves a scolding for this one.

 

[Graueradler]

Why? 75847583425 (extra characters to get message accepted)

 

[JohnR]

Interesting, not many professions contain non-executives who are so ego-driven. Do hospitals go through this with surgeons when they merge?

I can sympathize with the pilots, who've already given up a lot, but it's a valid point that they have to be flexible if they want their employer to stay alive.

 

[woodstock]

Wasn't there a article around Christmas stating that the CEOs were pocketing hundreds of millions of dollars? Why aren't they putting some of their own skin in the game to ensure that their companies stay afloat? Why is it ok for a new pilot to make 13 grand a year (an anecdote shared by a friend who flies for Pinnacle).

I think the crews have given plenty, how much do they have left to give?

 

[tdager]

While pay is a side-issue with the seniority list, this article was about the lame mechanism of seniority and the inflexibility of the pilots in working on a compromise.

Sorry...but I have been up, and down, in my career. Why do pilots think it is a never-ending upward run?

 

[JohnR]

The difference between the new-hire pilot and the CEO is a couple decades experience in whatever it is they do, plus the CEO isn't held back by unions. CEOs are risk-takers who also started out at $13k a year, pilots (and union members generally) are totally the opposite. Fore every CEO taking home millions there are a thousand who sacrifice their pay on payday so employees won't have to.

 

[Everskyward]

Similar subject here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20102

I'm sure it's difficult coming up with something that is considered fair to both sets of pilots not to mention the other employees in the company while also allowing the business to operate at a profit. To me the whole industry seems screwed up but I have no clue how to fix it. But I don't feel bad because no one else seems to have a clue either.

 

[121Dispatch]

The difference between the new-hire pilot and the CEO is a couple decades experience in whatever it is they do

...and when a company goes out of business, the CEO takes another CEO position for a different company making similar pay.

A pilot at that same company may have been a captain, and in the top 25% of a seniority list, but must now start over at the bottom of a new companies seniority list in the right seat being paid new-hire wages.

No pay-depending-on-experience if the pilots elects to remain flying the line for the airlines. Of course, other options are available, but for many it's a lifestyle they are used to, so they continue.

 

[JohnR]

...and when a company goes out of business, the CEO takes another CEO position for a different company making similar pay.

A pilot at that same company may have been a captain, and in the top 25% of a seniority list, but must now start over at the bottom of a new companies seniority list in the right seat being paid new-hire wages.

No pay-depending-on-experience if the pilots elects to remain flying the line for the airlines. Of course, other options are available, but for many it's a lifestyle they are used to, so they continue.

That's true, too, and doesn't seem right. Someone with 3000 hours of 737 captain time should be worth the same money regardless of the employer.

 

[nddons]

That's true, too, and doesn't seem right. Someone with 3000 hours of 737 captain time should be worth the same money regardless of the employer.

I agree - it seems that if there is any profession where merit should matter, it's as a professional pilot. Even the military doesn't give promotions just for time at grade.

I'm not a pro pilot and don't want to speak on behalf of the pros, but from a passenger's perspective, I think ALPA has done a disservice to professional pilots by using the seniority system.

I also am very suspect of these mega mergers like Delta and NW. Lack of competition is never good for the consumer.

 

[Auburn_CFI]

I agree - it seems that if there is any profession where merit should matter, it's as a professional pilot. Even the military doesn't give promotions just for time at grade.

I'm not a pro pilot and don't want to speak on behalf of the pros, but from a passenger's perspective, I think ALPA has done a disservice to professional pilots by using the seniority system.

I also am very suspect of these mega mergers like Delta and NW. Lack of competition is never good for the consumer.

Couldn't be further from the truth. If we did not operate on a seniority system all of the CA's would be the Chief Pilot's buddies who haven't called in sick because they would rather get their co-workers sick than make the company use a reserve pilot to cover their flying. I have some gripes about ALPA but looking at the history of the profession they have done far more good than damage.

**Added** I will say that seniority system can sometimes breed mediocrity. For example, I was the youngest person in my new hire class and therefore the most junior since we base seniority in the class upon age. I did not matter if I scored the highest on written tests or performed the best in simulator training I was still going to be the most junior person in the class. That did not change the fact that I tried to be the best for self fulfillment and the majority of airline pilots and all pilots for that matter share that same type of drive. We want to be the best and therefore even if you get one person on the flightdeck that could care less the chances are that the other will always pick up the slack. Seniority works and it keeps politics out of the flightdeck more importantly.

 

[Everskyward]

If we did not operate on a seniority system all of the CA's would be the Chief Pilot's buddies who haven't called in sick because they would rather get their co-workers sick than make the company use a reserve pilot to cover their flying.

On the other hand you can end up with pilots who are constantly complaining, spreading bad morale and doing the least they can do to help the company succeed. Wouldn't it be better for everyone, including the pilot, if they could make some kind of parallel move to another company which might fit their needs better? I can see how someone could become frustrated working for a company which is different now than it was when they were hired 15 years ago but they are unable change jobs without essentially starting over.

**Added** I will say that seniority system can sometimes breed mediocrity. For example, I was the youngest person in my new hire class and therefore the most junior since we base seniority in the class upon age. I did not matter if I scored the highest on written tests or performed the best in simulator training I was still going to be the most junior person in the class. That did not change the fact that I tried to be the best for self fulfillment and the majority of airline pilots and all pilots for that matter share that same type of drive.

Kudos to you and others who feel this way too. However, it doesn't seem to me like this situation would be the best motivator for people.

even if you get one person on the flightdeck that could care less the chances are that the other will always pick up the slack.

Do you want that person to be rewarded the same as you and your other hard working compadres?

 

[jpflys]

The difference between the new-hire pilot and the CEO is a couple decades experience in whatever it is they do, plus the CEO isn't held back by unions. CEOs are risk-takers who also started out at $13k a year, pilots (and union members generally) are totally the opposite. Fore every CEO taking home millions there are a thousand who sacrifice their pay on payday so employees won't have to.

I would not report whatever it is you're smoking on your next medical !

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It seems to me that it might serve everyone better if airlines were to use a "point system" of which seniority is but one part, actual flight experience another, and merit points for various things another. Say one point for every day worked in the industry, another point for every day worked for that particular airline, a point for every flight hour, and then allow for say 100 bonus points when a passenger writes a complimentary letter about the crew or a particular crewmember, 500 bonus points for successfully landing the sim the first time on a scenario that has an 80% failure rate, 1000 points for successfully handling a real emergency, etc.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would not report whatever it is you're smoking on your next medical !

He's right. He's not talking about Fortune 500 CEO's, but small-company CEO's (which is where big-company CEO's usually come from). I remember the owner of a computer store I worked for who didn't take home a single paycheck for the first two years.

 

[TMetzinger]

Like other highly regulated industries - the minimal skills to play are all that's required to operate effectively, so there's generally no predictable benefit to companies that are tied to pilot skills; essentially everyone in the cockpit is supposed to be good enough to meet the required level of service. I don't like the seniority concept either, but aside from rewarding good customer service, I don't see any other factor that truly discriminates among pilots in a way that matters to the company. The system is designed to treat qualified crew as interchangeable parts.

 

[JohnR]

He's right. He's not talking about Fortune 500 CEO's, but small-company CEO's (which is where big-company CEO's usually come from). I remember the owner of a computer store I worked for who didn't take home a single paycheck for the first two years.

One of my former bosses at a tiny firm quit after having to forego a couple paychecks. We always got paid, though it was iffy at times. He went back to being an employee at a larger company. I've since become self employed with no employees, where some months have zero income, some have three months' income.

 

[jpflys]

He's right. He's not talking about Fortune 500 CEO's, but small-company CEO's (which is where big-company CEO's usually come from). I remember the owner of a computer store I worked for who didn't take home a single paycheck for the first two years.

I was refering to the Big bonuses paid to fortune 500 CEO s REGARDLESS OF PERFORMANCE .

If ever a group of employees needed representation to offset the big screwed up companies, it is pilots.

 

[astanley]

I was refering to the Big bonuses paid to fortune 500 CEO s REGARDLESS OF PERFORMANCE .

If ever a group of employees needed representation to offset the big screwed up companies, it is pilots.

There are some serious issues with executive compensation. On the one hand, many executives are taking risks with their career when they lead a corporation - fail, and you'll be out of work (not always); but, by the same token, compensation ratios have far outstripped the rate of inflation or the risks that those executives have to take.

JP, sadly, pilots are not that group. But, that's just a ****ing contest, and it doesn't add anything of any real substance to the dialog.

Why do I see this thread becoming a retread of the famous "Workers" thread when the board launched?

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[maddog52]

JP, sadly, pilots are not that group. But, that's just a ****ing contest, and it doesn't add anything of any real substance to the dialog.

Why do I see this thread becoming a retread of the famous "Workers" thread when the board launched?

Cheers,

-Andrew

Andrew,
I've worked at both union and non-union part 121 carriers and I can tell you without a doubt that pilots need unions when dealing with large companies. Aside from the compensation and quality of life issues, the safety aspects are crucial.

As far as the seniority issue goes, noone has come up with better, truley workable system. Starting at the bottom of the list gives the airline a longer oppurtunity to train, indoctrinate, and evaluate a pilots suitablility for command before putting him/her in a position of ultimate responsibility.

Expecting pilots to just suck it up and compromise on their careers so senior executives and hedge funds can turn a quick buck in a merger is unrealistic.

Maddog

 

[Everskyward]

As far as the seniority issue goes, noone has come up with better, truley workable system. Starting at the bottom of the list gives the airline a longer oppurtunity to train, indoctrinate, and evaluate a pilots suitablility for command before putting him/her in a position of ultimate responsibility.

I thought one of the things about the seniority system is that you are able to bid to be a captain based on your number and not what anyone else thinks of you. So how much evaluation is going on beyond the fact that you obviously need to pass the checkride?

I understand that it would be hard to come up with some other system which would work given that most airlines have hundreds if not thousands of pilots. However, in my opinion it benefits the company more than the workers. The company doesn't need to worry about their more experienced pilots leaving for a better job because there is nowhere for them to go without taking a big pay cut. Mid-career people in other industries can make a parallel move if not an upward move when they change jobs. I think it would be hard early in your career to pick the "right" airline because after you pick it (or it picks you) you are more or less married to it for the next 20 or 30 years. You don't know what changes are going to happen along the way or if you are even going to want to work for it at that later date.

 

[gprellwitz]

In much of private industry, the only way to get a significant pay increase is to move to another company. Then, it's based on (perceived) merit and need. Even within a company, pay increases are typically indexed somewhat to performance. I'm now in the first position where we've been unionized and performance plays no role in remuneration. And I cannot fathom working in an industry where everyone had, in effect, golden handcuffs preventing them from locating more suitable employment.

 

[TMetzinger]

In some (non-union) segments of aviation, pilots are indeed compensated and promoted based on other subjective factors - in the charter world a pilot with a good attitude towards customers can stand out and be more valuable than one who can fly an NDB single-engine while inverted.

But, as noted earlier, in the airlines with so many pilots, the problems with subjective evaluations (buddies of the chief pilot get treated better) lead to the result of pilots being treated like interchangeable parts. Thus, seniority is the only "added value" associated with the interchangeable part.

Airlines have very little need for master aviators - they merely need folks who can get the job done in compliance with their operations manual, which is not terribly difficult, as by specification the flying is done well inside the envelope. If you want to be rewarded for superior airmanship, then I can't think of many segments of aviation that work that way - perhaps research/test flying (though you need to be both a master aviator AND a master communicator to do that well) or combat flying as a mercenary might operate that way.

 

[docmirror]

I'm sure the US steel unions, and US auto unions thought they had the same power as the pilots do. I'm certain in some dark quiet office of all the majors they are looking at non-union pilot options. They might even be investigating non-US pilots flying for US carriers. It's happened in many, many other industries. If the pilots keep making such a mess of the situation, they will be bypassed at some point.

I also agree that exec compensation is making things much worse. It's shameful when the company gets to the bargaining table with a union, and the CEO pay s 50-200 times the pay of any pilot/negotiator in the room.

 

[maddog52]

I thought one of the things about the seniority system is that you are able to bid to be a captain based on your number and not what anyone else thinks of you. So how much evaluation is going on beyond the fact that you obviously need to pass the checkride?

From the start of your probationary year, you are being looked at for upgrade potential. Just because you have the seniority to bid captain, it doesn't mean you will get it. There are some individuals who are marked as non upgradeable and either stay the rest of their careers as FO or are forced out. In an industry where every body is evaluated individually on a regular basis and has to meet standards based on Federal law, what other evaluation would you use to jump someone ahead of someone else? I don't like the seniority system either, but until they develop a better system, it's all there is.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Just because you have the seniority to bid captain, it doesn't mean you will get it.

Well if they have the seniority, and they bid it, they WILL get the bid. It is in training that it will be determined whether or not they can handle it. At American, it used to be if you could NOT handle it, you were let go. At others you would be limited to the seat you were in.

There are some individuals who are marked as non upgradeable and either stay the rest of their careers as FO or are forced out.

Like I said above. But that is determined in the training environment.

 

[wsuffa]

Interesting, not many professions contain non-executives who are so ego-driven.

You would be surprised..... to the point that deals are skewered over this. BTDT from the deal side.

Many of the pilots in majors have advanced degrees and loads of experience. Most of them could get jobs elsewhere. I met a member of the board of directors for a major (and very well known) company recently that had put in 15 years as a pilot for AA mainline.